00:00:00 --- log: started retro/13.02.07
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09:11:14 <harrison> tangentstorm: you should be in #concatenative
09:11:47 <harrison> years ago i wrote a little language based on joy
09:11:57 <harrison> simple recursive decent parser
09:12:10 <harrison> and i think i shall do so again
09:12:17 <harrison> years ago i wrote a little language based on joy
09:12:27 <harrison> in oberon
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14:19:29 <Mat2> hello
14:28:53 <erider> hi Mat2 
14:29:00 <Mat2> hi erider
14:29:47 <erider> Mat2: do you know some bash -fu to do 2's complement
14:33:44 <Mat2> no
14:36:02 <Mat2> I am right, you plan to create an ELF header though a bash script ?
14:36:37 <erider> lol close 
14:37:21 <Mat2> a coff header ? *g*
14:40:09 <erider> no I am playing around with writing binary 
14:40:58 <erider> I am thinking about a forth from thin air tutorial kind of like bcompiler 
14:41:54 <erider> but I want to learn how to use only command line tools to do the heavy lifting 
14:42:48 <Mat2> ahm, can you givre me a link to the thin air tutorial ?
14:42:54 <Mat2> ^give
14:45:04 <erider> http://www.rano.org/bcompiler.tar.gz
14:48:40 <erider>  printf "%d\n" echo $((255-16#e7)) 1's complement just at 1 and to get 2's 
14:49:21 <Mat2> uh, ok
14:49:34 <erider> sorry take out the echo :-) 
14:49:46 <erider>  printf "%d\n" $((255-16#e7))
14:53:14 <Mat2> why you do not simply use awk ?
14:53:50 <Mat2> it is a standart tool for every *nix up system 6
14:54:34 * erider doesn't like the syntax of awk
14:55:09 <erider> I can just use perl instead of awk 
14:55:36 <erider> but I want to use the basic builtins 
14:56:01 <Mat2> I can understand that. The thing is awk features a build-in function compl(value) for bitwise complements
14:58:47 <Mat2> an alternative would be these old monitor tool in combination with ed
14:59:07 <Mat2> (that's really, really basic)
15:01:52 <erider> :-) 
15:02:14 <erider> printf will work for now 
15:03:12 <erider> Mat2: how are you doing today 
15:04:56 <erider> Mat2: symbol tables are a mystery to me :-(  I have not found a good explanation on how to implement them by hand 
15:05:28 <erider> most of the assemblers and compilers do that heavy lifting for you 
15:10:58 <Mat2> hmm, simple symbol tables are just record arrays of a string and a pointer
15:12:05 <Mat2> ^today I'm working on the parser of metro
15:19:49 <erider> sounds fun 
15:23:59 <erider> Mat2: did your tcl expert have any feedback 
15:25:12 <Mat2> He will study the code next week (and will take the time for some simplifications of it)
15:26:02 <Mat2> because too much work at current
15:26:13 <erider> :-) 
15:26:26 <erider> hey are you make metro in retro 
15:26:54 <Mat2> I port the parts, which do not relate on my vm design
15:26:55 <erider> well at least the bootstrapping 
15:27:11 <erider> so you are doing it in C 
15:27:32 <Mat2> the vm is coded in C at moment
15:27:44 <erider> sure
15:28:11 <Mat2> but I have also an prototype in (Object)Pascal
15:30:21 <Mat2> I think this is my last project in C because of language specific incompatibilities and quirks
15:30:42 <erider> :-) 
15:30:59 <erider> Mat2: what are you missing 
15:31:02 <erider> from C 
15:32:28 <Mat2> C has no standard for endianess handling and some syntactical language features are compiler dependent, like pointer arrangement inb memory
15:32:46 <Mat2> ^in memory
15:33:40 <Mat2> that makes it very had coding both platform and compiler independent
15:34:57 <erider> hmm 
15:36:00 <erider> I thought there was endianess support
15:37:40 <Mat2> my coding is, that coding with cross-platform macro assemblers is likewise as portable as in C but offers better cpu control
15:40:12 <Mat2> yes, there exist some library support
15:40:48 <Mat2> but no standard for handling mixed endianess formats
15:41:13 <erider> ah ok 
15:42:10 <Mat2> sorry I meant my conclusion is
15:48:10 <erider> so what do you plan to use next time metro? 
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15:51:56 <Mat2> I will use nasm
15:52:59 <Mat2> and for all other planed cpu architectures (ARM7 and MIPS32) gas
15:54:31 <erider> nice 
16:14:21 <Mat2> ok, it's after midnight here
16:14:29 <Mat2> enouth coding for today
16:14:31 <Mat2> ciao
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16:16:53 <tangentstorm> erider:  do you know about this? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/edmund.grimley-evans/bcompiler.html
16:16:55 <tangentstorm> oh
16:17:00 <tangentstorm> obviously you do! :)
16:17:12 <tangentstorm> didn't notice the name "bcompiler" until i pasted it. :)
16:18:12 <erider> :-)
16:28:29 <erider> btw hi tangentstorm 
16:40:11 <tangentstorm> hello
16:40:38 <tangentstorm> i have also been inspired by that paper. in fact, it is what lead me to search for a virtual machine in the first place.
16:40:56 <tangentstorm> the fact that we can't just make a *.com file and run it anymore.
16:41:01 <tangentstorm> like we could in the dos days...
16:45:08 <erider> well header have changed the game on that 
16:46:56 <erider> tangentstorm: have you seen this http://code.google.com/p/scheme-from-scratch/
17:03:04 <tangentstorm> yes but i haven't read it 
17:11:14 <erider> oh 
17:18:36 <tangentstorm> i have a huge pile of things to read, and forget to come back and read them :)
17:18:49 <tangentstorm> what about stone knife forth?
17:19:04 <tangentstorm> https://github.com/kragen/stoneknifeforth
17:19:32 <erider> I seen this 
17:19:53 <tangentstorm> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9x15g/programming_thought_experiment_stuck_in_a_room/c0ewj2c
17:20:09 <tangentstorm> i've never tried to run it
17:20:16 <tangentstorm> the reddit comment is by the same guy
17:22:03 <erider> That looks interesting 
17:22:10 <erider> you never tried it 
17:24:17 <tangentstorm> i read his code and the discussion
17:24:30 <tangentstorm> i just didn't actually try to run it or play with it
17:25:26 <tangentstorm> the course i'm working on in my head starts with a very simple description of algorithms that draw graphics
17:25:57 <tangentstorm> like: here is putpixel() ... here's what a loop is. let's draw a vertical line
17:26:02 <tangentstorm> let's draw a horizontal line
17:26:05 <tangentstorm> let's draw a box
17:26:07 <tangentstorm> let's fill the box
17:26:12 <tangentstorm> let's get the mouse position
17:26:30 <tangentstorm> let's handle click events
17:26:57 <tangentstorm> let's change the color of the square when we click it
17:27:05 <tangentstorm> let's make some more
17:27:23 <tangentstorm> here's an array of these little squares we can toggle between two colors
17:28:30 <tangentstorm> so... basically that covers a simple language with things like records (for 2d points), arrays, loops, etc.
17:28:48 <tangentstorm> in other words: oberon
17:29:14 <tangentstorm> next lesson: use the squares to demonstrate what bits are.
17:29:19 <tangentstorm> how truth tables work
17:29:35 <tangentstorm> signals and events...
17:29:52 <tangentstorm> build a little circuit.
17:29:56 <tangentstorm> build a computer
17:30:33 <tangentstorm> implement a little stack device
17:30:35 <tangentstorm> implement 30 or so primitive instructions
17:30:50 <tangentstorm> like.. say.. the ones in ngaro.
17:30:58 <erider> how long is this course 
17:31:13 <tangentstorm> i don't know :)
17:31:33 <tangentstorm> i picture it as being sort of a game that people play
17:31:40 <tangentstorm> part lecture part puzzle
17:31:46 <tangentstorm> very visual and animated
17:32:12 <tangentstorm> https://twitter.com/tangentstorm
17:32:15 <tangentstorm> whoops
17:32:31 <tangentstorm> https://twitter.com/tangentstorm/status/253709661646229505
17:32:42 <tangentstorm> that is one representation of the computer.
17:34:18 <tangentstorm> probably broken into segments like khan academy.
17:34:48 <tangentstorm> i filmed the first part, the high level language part about a year ago
17:34:58 <tangentstorm> completely improvised and un-edited.
17:35:15 <tangentstorm> maybe a year and a half ago now? yikes.
17:35:39 <tangentstorm> i was using processing
17:35:53 <tangentstorm> http://www.gamesketchlib.org/
17:36:40 <erider> so you don't know how long the course is going to be 
17:36:46 <tangentstorm> i started thinking about this couse as soon as i drew the square 
17:37:04 <tangentstorm> and it's taken me this long to figure out how to even do it
17:37:59 <tangentstorm> i know it starts with what i just said . i don't know where it ends.
17:38:49 <tangentstorm> i suspect i will break it into units
17:39:11 <tangentstorm> and you will be able to choose different paths
17:39:45 <erider> pick your own adventure :-) 
17:39:48 <tangentstorm> yes
17:39:52 <tangentstorm> there is a story too
17:40:19 <tangentstorm> part of it is the story of ernie goldsmile in the forth dimension
17:40:53 <tangentstorm> and there is another part of the story that involves time travel
17:41:08 <tangentstorm> and takes place in the 1880's
17:41:45 <tangentstorm> so yeah, like an adventure game.
17:42:36 <tangentstorm> big chunks of it will be free to play, but you will be able to buy extra lessons and stuff too
17:43:12 <tangentstorm> anyway... that's the not-so-super-secret plan. :)
17:44:33 <erider> is this class an interactive game?
17:45:31 <tangentstorm> i think that it will be a series of interactive video lectures and the homework will be an interactive game
17:47:14 <tangentstorm> have you played forth warrior yet?
17:47:57 <erider> no 
17:48:59 <tangentstorm> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/tree/master/games/Warrior2
17:49:16 <tangentstorm> it's an adventure game where you control the player by writing forth programs :)
17:49:33 <tangentstorm> RodgerTheGreat from over in #forth wrote it
17:52:43 <erider> tangentstorm: you need to use gforth to run? 
17:53:53 <erider> tangentstorm: have you played it? 
17:54:45 <tangentstorm> you need java
17:54:51 <tangentstorm> mako is his virtual machine
17:55:02 <erider> will I have that 
17:55:04 <tangentstorm> it is somewhat similar to ngaro
17:55:04 <erider> lol 
17:55:16 <tangentstorm> yeah, just get the whole repository
17:55:41 <tangentstorm> git clone the mako repo
17:55:49 <tangentstorm> you need java and ant, and that should be it.
17:56:03 <tangentstorm> see the readme
17:56:48 <tangentstorm> mako has a very nice sprite device, and a sound system.
17:57:20 <tangentstorm> he has a whole little collection of games in there... mostly they look like old gameboy or NES games :)
17:57:27 <tangentstorm> SNES maybe
17:57:34 <erider> did you beat it 
17:57:48 <erider> ;-0
18:05:22 <tangentstorm> not yet no.. just tried it yesterday
18:05:47 <erider> oh
18:18:28 <crcx> Good evening
18:18:53 <erider> hi crcx 
18:20:14 <tangentstorm> hey crcx :)
18:21:10 <tangentstorm> i am setting up an account where people can ssh in and play with retro 
18:22:48 <crcx> Cool :)
18:23:34 <crcx> I'm working on documenting the parable compiler process and bytecodes
18:30:34 <tangentstorm> crcx: would it annoy you if i call my virtual machine retro-vm ?
18:31:06 <tangentstorm> i want to merge in some of the features from parable and mako
18:32:40 <tangentstorm> and also do that utf-8 encoding stuff
18:33:39 <tangentstorm> i'm kind of committed to the name retro pascal, but "retro vm" is just what i've been calling this thing in my head
18:33:52 <tangentstorm> i'm not married to it.
18:34:01 <tangentstorm> maybe a better question is: do you guys think it would be confusing?
18:34:20 <tangentstorm> ..
18:34:32 <tangentstorm> the fact that i'm asking it means it's probably confusing. :)
18:34:48 <tangentstorm> the name i planned to use was "lecter" :)
18:36:28 <tangentstorm> mabye b4vm
18:36:36 <tangentstorm> b4th
18:52:32 <crcx> Tangent: not at all. Go ahead.
18:54:12 <tangentstorm> hmm. well... thanks! :) i need to sort out a bunch of branding stuff, but that was at the top of my mental list. if you change your mind please do let me know
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19:49:06 <crcx> https://gist.github.com/crcx/4736453
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22:12:02 <tangentstorm> if anyone wants to try mineswpr or see my colorized retro, you can now ssh to retro@argon.sabren.com ... the password is currently 6dfigw5
22:16:07 <tangentstorm> or you can grab the image from http://games.tangentcode.com/mineswpr/mineswpr.img
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