00:00:00 --- log: started retro/12.12.11
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02:05:04 <tangentstorm> TRG: actually it's about a programming language called retro, formerly retroforth. But many of the people who hang out here also seem to have an interest in older computers. :)
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08:13:33 <beretta> hmm.. I've just incorporated {{ --reveal-- and }} into my forth... very handy indeed.
08:15:58 <tangentstorm> :)
08:18:02 <beretta> it was a brain tease.. though... I'm forth eviroment didn't separate dictionary hearder from code so I had to institute that first.
08:18:31 <beretta> then institute vocabularies....
08:18:46 <beretta> then "local defs"
08:19:11 <beretta> hopefully the "local defs" are truely local... I'm not sure how they'll act if nested.
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08:20:37 <tangentstorm> i was using them in a pascal compiler yesterday. i actually didn't test nested procedures... that's a good question
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08:21:37 <tangentstorm> they should offer something like lexical scope, but you'd have to push them on and off a stack if you have recursive calls
08:21:50 <tangentstorm> at least how they work in retro
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08:21:57 <beretta> Its a bit confusing:  I have the dictionary lists, and the header compile areas, and the code compile area all jumbled around in my head.
08:22:29 <tangentstorm> they're also all jumbled around in ram, as far as i can tell :)
08:23:27 <beretta> my {{ pushes (saves) the old info, and }} restores... so I think it'll work.
08:23:57 <beretta> and the search list is a stack, so is the header and code compile areas
08:24:36 <beretta> or really: "backwards" stacks... they grow up in memory.
08:24:49 <beretta> like "CP" (or HERE )
08:37:05 <beretta> hmm.. my target can't produce curley-brackets... oops!
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09:47:44 <tangentstorm> wow. what are you targeting?
09:52:17 <beretta> an m6809 Tandy Color Computer 2/3
09:52:47 <tangentstorm> huh :) pre-ascii?
09:52:54 <beretta> the CoCo2's charactor generator/keyboard doesn't have "{" or "}"
09:53:20 <beretta> nope... just a crappy all uppercase version of ASCII
09:53:32 <tangentstorm> 6-bit?
09:53:38 <beretta> yup
09:53:49 <tangentstorm> cool
09:54:31 <beretta> well... this forth (hopefully) will be my last.
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09:55:14 <beretta> I went with a VM so this forth can run on anything I can write the VM for... lua,C,6809 ASM, x86 ASM, etc....
09:56:14 <beretta> a friend want to write a JAVA VM-VM for it.
09:57:44 <beretta> I should have used Retro, really... it's Ngaro VM would be fairly easy to port.
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10:01:32 <tangentstorm> ngaro is pretty cool... and it already has a bunch of ports :)
10:03:08 <beretta> truely.
10:04:04 <beretta> oh well... my VM is tailored, and only have about 30 "primitives" to port.
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10:10:13 <crc> beretta: do you have a spec for your vm online?
10:10:34 <beretta> nope, not yet.
10:13:05 <crc> ok
10:13:08 <beretta> probably the most notable differences from Ngaro are: data and return stacks (and pointers) are addressable locations in the "Memory Store"
10:14:55 <crc> I had thought about doing that, but couldn't find a way to handle it cleanly without exposing internal registers
10:14:58 <beretta> there are some "implimentation" primitives such as MINT (minimum int) and MEMZ (memory size).. 
10:15:39 <beretta> yeah... I have the standard primitives: "sp! sp@ and rp! rp@"
10:17:24 <beretta> but my VM (called Legs) has pretty much the same inherent direct threading as Ngaro
10:18:28 <beretta> 'cept for primitives are any xt less then 0x100, rather then 30,  as this is easier to test for on small, old machines, like the m6809.
10:19:50 <beretta> and no * or / either. (many old machines didn't have these)
10:20:20 <tangentstorm> what did they use to multiply?
10:20:32 <beretta> shift-left.
10:20:52 <tangentstorm> :)
10:21:40 <beretta> granted, there are asm/C routines that do this... but what's the fun in that?
10:22:35 <beretta> so my forth cross-compiler (and my native forth itself) doesn't support "BASE".
10:23:18 <beretta> it only understands hexidecimal number.  I was thinking of dropping native support for numbers, anyway.
10:23:51 <beretta> you don't really need numbers to boot-strap forth, just words.. 
10:26:01 <beretta> I figure I could write a nicer ">number" routine after I bothered writing * and /....  the DTC threading used by Ngaro and Legs make it easy to redirect previously define word's actions.
10:27:53 <beretta> which is what I did to bootstrap/modify the base native forth to compile headers/code separately, and vocabularies, and "{ --reveal-- }", and the such... I just started redirecting old words.
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11:18:27 <crc> tangentstorm: is the pl/0 compiler far enough along to be worth porting to parable?
11:31:50 <tangentstorm> crc: well, i cheated on the part that pushes and pops local variables, but other than that, the whole language is implemented
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11:43:56 <crc> tangentstorm: sounds good; I'll work on a parable port
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12:56:46 <Mat2> hello
12:57:02 <impomatic> Hi Mat2 :-)
12:57:20 <Mat2> hi impomatic !
12:57:28 <Mat2> what's going on ?
12:57:58 <impomatic> Not much. I've just moved house. Unpacking boxes :-)
12:59:22 <Mat2> oh, this is nice for spending hours recognizing things never seen before :)
13:00:26 <impomatic> I have a few boxes to take out of storage that I haven't seen for 12 years! Quite a bit of computer stuff in there... At least 40 8-bit computers :-)
13:00:50 <beretta> impomatic: are you on the CoCo chat channel too ?!?! :)
13:00:57 <Mat2> wow, what computers ?
13:01:05 <Mat2> hi beretta
13:01:11 <beretta> hey Mat2 
13:05:42 <Mat2> beretta: Do you know stack hreading ? I've read this technique would be very efficient for the mc6809
13:05:53 <Mat2> sorry mean stack threading
13:06:01 <Mat2> (these Apple keyboard)
13:06:23 <beretta> :)  stack threading... no like using one of the stacks as a IP ?
13:06:34 <Mat2> yes
13:08:00 <beretta> unless there's some magic behind it, I don't, without checking the m6809 instruction set, see where a speed up would be from using the X index register.
13:10:11 <beretta> not that I'm an authority on m6809 or forth for that matter...
13:10:25 <Mat2> do not know either, probably that was used by a forth for the 6309 ?!??
13:10:36 <impomatic> From memory: various models of Spectrum, MSX, Commodore, CoCo, Acorn and a few more obscure - Hektor, Sam Coupe, Cray OWS
13:11:25 <Mat2> I own an Oric ATMOS and Tandy MC10
13:14:28 <tangentstorm> hey guys!
13:14:33 <Mat2> ahm you descibe a Cray as home-computer ? 
13:14:40 <Mat2> hi tangentstorm !
13:15:10 <tangentstorm> i want a cray :)
13:15:52 <beretta> I hear you can get a cray on ebay now.
13:16:04 <tangentstorm> haha cool
13:16:26 <crc> tangentstorm: in the pl/0, the condition for ifTrue in the while loop handler should not be in a quote
13:16:55 * tangentstorm looks
13:17:01 <Mat2> hi crc !
13:18:02 * Mat2 wonders about the energy demands of a Cray installed at home
13:18:10 <tangentstorm> do'h. i guess it just is always evaluated to true because the quote isn't at 0. yikes. thanks!
13:18:18 <impomatic> Mat2: well it fits in my house.  It's slightly bigger than the fridge!
13:18:28 <Mat2> *lol*
13:20:01 <beretta> you might want to purchase some liquid N2 also :)
13:20:54 <crc> apart from recursion and proper locals (not sure how to handle these yet...), the compiler can generate parable code which works ok
13:21:07 <tangentstorm> nice :)
13:21:22 <crc> bazaar.launchpad.net/~crc-x/+junk/pl0-variants/
13:22:22 <tangentstorm> crc:  i can fix the proper locals... basically just need to add to that list of local variables incrementally in accept_var
13:23:02 <tangentstorm> in the "real" compiler it'll also walk the procedure definition and only attempt to preserve variables that are actually used again
13:26:27 <Mat2> impomatic: What operating system do you use on the Cray ?
13:26:41 <tangentstorm> impomatic: i bought that adventure games in pascal book... that's what inspired the whole retro text adventure thing :)
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13:33:53 <impomatic> Mat2: I've no idea. I checked it booted, ran a cracker on the password file, but that's about it. I picked it up for £20 from a government surplus warehouse!
13:35:30 <impomatic> Tangentstorm: haven't finished reading yet on account of moving... I think I'll write an adventure in Forth.
13:36:10 <Mat2-coding> you should take a look at the data stored
13:36:14 <tangentstorm> £20 for a cray. whoah.
13:36:27 <Mat2-coding> nice investment
13:38:03 <impomatic> It's a Cray OWS. It's a mini computer, not a super computer - no gold wiring :-(
13:38:32 <tangentstorm> you know 386's are now selling for like thousands of dollars because people want to harvest the gold?
13:38:54 <tangentstorm> there's a weird curve in the prices... 386=really expensive pentium=almost worthless :)
13:39:05 <tangentstorm> at least on ebay
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13:47:43 <Mat2-coding> hmm, the tms9900 cpu was gold soldered (ti99/4a)
13:48:37 <Mat2-coding> nice to have one beside the awful design of these computer
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14:37:09 <Mat2-coding> assigning NIL to a pointer in freepascal aotomaical frees it allocated memory, nice !
14:37:19 <Mat2-coding> ^automatical
14:37:35 <tangentstorm> yep
14:37:57 <tangentstorm> on some things
14:38:08 <beretta> does pascal have globals yet?
14:38:12 <beretta> :)
14:38:17 <tangentstorm> no
14:38:22 <tangentstorm> not really anymore
14:38:32 <tangentstorm> only module-level globals
14:38:35 <beretta> oh they got rid of them again?
14:39:00 <tangentstorm> everything is in a module
14:39:15 <beretta> can modules contain modules?
14:39:56 <tangentstorm> there's an iso standard that uses the term "modules" but almost everybody actually uses borland pascal, which has "units"
14:40:01 <tangentstorm> neither are nestable
14:40:15 <tangentstorm> but procedures are nestable, and each procedure is its own namespace
14:41:08 <tangentstorm> beretta: https://github.com/sabren/b4/tree/master/ng  <- ngaro virtual machine in pascal
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14:54:39 <tangentstorm> crc: https://github.com/tangentstorm/PL0-Language-Tools/commit/a8e253cc8ae25b7329afad970b390b7d6e6ed1ad  <- proper treatment of local variables
14:55:25 <tangentstorm> i didn't use "preserve" because i might have more than one name...
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15:07:19 <crc> nice. I'll merge this into the parable branch as well
15:10:51 <tangentstorm> did you add output then? :)
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15:20:44 <crc> no, but I'll pack output into an array and display that in the stack view
15:25:31 <Mat2-coding> ok, peephole optimization works and opcode sheduling for in order designs too
15:29:47 <Mat2-coding> and the compiler uses the register file as data stack
15:44:40 <Mat2-coding> ciao
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15:56:40 <crc> ok, locals patch is added
15:56:58 <crc> all I need is my fake output and parable support for recursion...
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16:33:42 <crc> my pl/0 now puts output into a named slice
17:05:05 <tangentstorm> crc: hmm... do you have some kind of view to display a slice then?
17:21:38 <crc> only the decompiler
17:21:58 <crc> I'll work up something better soon 
17:23:52 <crc> if i add array type displays to the stack output, this would be simple
17:38:48 <tangentstorm> i like the new ui
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