00:00:00 --- log: started retro/12.11.21
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11:13:08 <Mat2> hello
11:13:20 <tangentstorm> hi mat2 :)
11:13:38 <Mat2> hi tangentstorm ! what's new ?
11:14:14 <Mat2> I'm working on a pascal version of my vm
11:14:41 <tangentstorm> I ported a clone of libreadline to pascal : https://github.com/tangentstorm/linenoise
11:16:35 <tangentstorm> I'm thinking i'm going to port escapes.js to pascal, and get it working over ssh on linux, as well as with your sdl terminal
11:17:23 <Mat2> ah, looks like the old ADM31 terminal code I used on TurboPascal (CP/M version)
11:17:58 <tangentstorm> come to think of it, i have some old pascal code that already does this too :)
11:18:03 <tangentstorm> somewhere...
11:20:15 <Mat2> I should need to read and convert old 5-1/4 discs in IBM8 format to get the sources, very tricky
11:20:59 <tangentstorm> :)
11:23:58 <tangentstorm> i was pretty good about copying my old disks when 5-1/4 and 3.5" drives went off the market, but i had like multiple versions of each file in random places all over the disks
11:24:36 <tangentstorm> i've finally been sorting them out here: https://github.com/tangentstorm/silverware ... going to try and get some of them to run on ngaro
11:25:11 <Mat2> next week, I think to start programming on my than new Raspberri PI on a stand alone version of my vm
11:26:07 <Mat2> searching for a cheap touch screen for these device though
11:26:13 <tangentstorm> very cool!
11:29:20 <Mat2> have ideas about my own tablet os :)
11:31:04 * tangentstorm remembers seeing a pascal os kernel around not too long ago...
11:31:45 <tangentstorm> huh. 3 here you could borrow from: http://wiki.freepascal.org/Operating_Systems_written_in_FPC
11:31:58 <tangentstorm> er, 4
11:33:06 <Mat2> I want to finish these vm project so I can concentrate on, or me, important application programming (web browser, spreadsheet..)
11:33:16 <Mat2> ^for
11:33:31 <Mat2> on top of it
11:34:00 <Mat2> thanks for the link, I will study there code
11:37:23 <Mat2> the TORO kernel is very interesting, a typical nanokernel concept like the nucleus of Mac OS 9
11:38:21 <Mat2> I had suggested such kind of kernels would been prefered programmed in C or C++
11:39:42 <tangentstorm> beats me :) 
11:40:17 <tangentstorm> i found this a while ago : http://wiki.freepascal.org/THtmlPort ... I think it's an html rendering engine completely written in delphi, and then ported to fpc
11:43:11 <tangentstorm> https://lazarus-ccr.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/lazarus-ccr/components/thtmlport/package/htmlview.pas ... yep, sure looks like it
11:43:49 <Mat2> nice :) My idea was to port the Gecko engine to my retro dialect but probably extending the vm with an existing HTML engine is a better idea
11:45:34 <tangentstorm> i've been trying to decide between compiling directly to ngaro or compiling to retro code. i almost think retro makes more sense, because it decouples the pascal compiler from the vm
11:52:18 <Mat2> that is true
11:53:05 <Mat2> this strategy have another advantage too: You can use my vm with your code :)
11:55:05 <Mat2> (with the ability to JIT compile performance critical parts)
11:57:07 <tangentstorm> :)
11:57:21 <tangentstorm> i think that's the way to go, then
11:59:05 <Mat2> implementing a pascal compiler would be easy in retro I think
11:59:52 <tangentstorm> I've got a partial pascal compiler written in forth from 1983, and the author gave me permission to port it
12:00:08 <Mat2> that is very gentle :)
12:00:36 * tangentstorm digs it up to post to the repository.
12:01:10 <tangentstorm> i had to transcribe it by hand from a blurry pdf, so i haven't actually got it running yet, and it's in an org-mode file
12:04:56 <Mat2> I am offering you to help in completing if you upload your code
12:05:23 <tangentstorm> https://github.com/sabren/b4/blob/master/ref/winfield-pascal-83.org
12:05:34 <tangentstorm> https://raw.github.com/sabren/b4/master/ref/winfield-pascal-83.org
12:05:48 <tangentstorm> github's org file parser's kind of a mess
12:05:57 <tangentstorm> Mat2: do you use emacs?
12:06:30 <Mat2> no, the JOE editor
12:07:17 <Mat2> (Joe's own editor)
12:07:17 <tangentstorm> ok... org-mode is an emacs plugin that's sort of a cross between an outliner, a personal organizer, and a literate programming tool
12:07:44 <tangentstorm> it's pretty cool but not necessarily worth the trauma of learning emacs over :)
12:08:24 <tangentstorm> i'll generate the plain forth version then
12:08:51 <Mat2> ok, installing these monstreous editor environment OS would not the problem for me, only using it :)
12:09:51 <Mat2> emacs is like unix, here one can say is-nix
12:10:41 <Mat2> (a failure)
12:11:03 <tangentstorm> :)
12:13:19 <tangentstorm> https://twitter.com/tangentstorm/status/240072961225281536 <- has links to the original articles that explain the code
12:15:53 <Mat2> thanks, very interesting code. I think it can be simplified a lot
12:16:34 <Mat2> I have expected a EBNF parser but well, it's a work base
12:16:52 <tangentstorm> i got stuck not knowing what a lot of the old forth words meant
12:17:14 <tangentstorm> https://github.com/tangentstorm/PL0-Language-Tools  <- simpler pascal-like language, compiles to virtual machine very much like retro already
12:17:46 <Mat2> hmm, looks like forth 83
12:17:46 <tangentstorm> I thought I would start with that one as a prototype since it's so close
12:18:43 <tangentstorm> yeah. i had considered installing an emulator for an old machine to run it, but i just haven't gotten to it
12:19:05 <tangentstorm> actually i think it was the same machine you've mentioned a few times... z80?
12:20:12 <Mat2> yes
12:21:03 <tangentstorm> yeah. someone in #forth suggested i could download an emulator for that, and get the actual forth he was using
12:23:30 <Mat2> there flourish an sophisticated CP/M emulator on the net. You can download a folksforth image and run forth inside your web browser under this emulator
12:24:10 <Mat2> (or some older Fig or F79 system)
12:24:49 <tangentstorm> i was trying   http://simh.trailing-edge.com/
12:26:50 <Mat2> that emulator is fine but you you will be in trouble using the suggested disk image
12:26:58 <Mat2> http://www.tramm.li/i8080/
12:27:43 <Mat2> <- but beware, this is an i8080 based emulator, there exist some forth systems which need an mor advanced z80 cpu
12:27:50 <Mat2> ^more
12:28:56 <Mat2> (zilog ~doubles the number of opcodes for it's z80 cpu)
12:29:01 <tangentstorm> :) that's cool
12:30:27 <Mat2> by the way, the basic version you will find on this side is the original one from Bill itself...
12:31:46 <tangentstorm> billg@microsoft.com ? :)
12:32:31 <Mat2> yes, the earliest kernel standard ever created for more than 20 years before MS-DOS (at least most home computers had selled with an microsoft basic in rom)
12:32:52 <Mat2> as operating system !
12:32:56 <tangentstorm> :)
12:33:01 <tangentstorm> i really liked gw-basic
12:33:18 <tangentstorm> i mean... at the time :)
12:34:30 <Mat2> *g* most geeks don't know that the original IBM PC started with BASICA (also from Microsoft)
12:34:59 <tangentstorm> ... wow, that sounds familiar
12:35:26 <Mat2> MS-DOS was selled as optional disc-operating system
12:35:49 <tangentstorm> huh
12:36:24 <Mat2> that's why the first IBM PC had an cassette port (for storage with an cassette recorder)
12:36:42 <Mat2> like the ZX-Spectrum
12:37:41 <tangentstorm> i think my cousins had something like that. i didn't get a computer until like 1990 or so
12:38:05 <Mat2> that was the most selling home computer in the UK
12:38:30 <tangentstorm> whew. okay, i loaded this cpma operating system in my browser. now to try forth
12:40:24 <Mat2> and, is it working ?
12:40:55 <tangentstorm> still loading. i'm on a 10 year old xp machine, so it's loading really slow
12:41:39 <Mat2> I think it is loading at original speed
12:42:08 <tangentstorm> i like this console, especially how you can escape into the emulator and see the registers
12:43:09 <Mat2> yes, that is nice for debugging and was a standard feature on most CP/M systems
12:43:27 <tangentstorm> oh really? the actual machine was like that?
12:43:32 <Mat2> yes
12:43:32 <tangentstorm> huh
12:44:15 <tangentstorm> yeah, you know the nice thing about ngaro is that it's simple, and you have direct control of the ports
12:44:28 <Mat2> yes
12:44:46 <tangentstorm> i think it will be good for teaching... but even more so if you can directly inspect the stack and ram with an external shell like this
12:45:10 <tangentstorm> ( i'm making a course on programming )
12:45:12 <Mat2> the first think I program is a debugger for my vm'S
12:45:20 <tangentstorm> :)
12:45:40 <Mat2> and an assembler from which I can build up a system on the fly
12:46:43 <tangentstorm> i was thinking of doing something like a hex dump, where students could just hand-code machine code in ram
12:47:07 <tangentstorm> and watch the little instruction pointer move around as it runs :)
12:47:49 <Mat2> that was common sense some time ago... but ignorant C enthusiasts had changed that because some of them don't know how cpu's work or what machine code is
12:48:43 <Mat2> (that are these experts which will now teach programming in universities I bet)
12:52:23 <Mat2> some months ago I had to work with some of these experts in system programming who don't know even the basics of binary logic
12:52:57 <Mat2> that was a sad experience
12:53:19 <tangentstorm> :) a lot of people make a living programming without knowing how to program
12:55:22 <tangentstorm> aha. both forth disks are loaded.
12:55:25 <tangentstorm> moment of truth
12:55:45 <Mat2> That would not really affect me as much, if not from this could endanger the safety of the general public
12:56:45 <Mat2> if I think only of ABS systems in cars, or flight controlling systems in airplanes...
12:59:56 <tangentstorm> it ran, and i typed "words" .. .got a long long list and couldn't figure out how to clear the screen
13:00:18 <tangentstorm> now i halted it and don't know how to restart
13:00:56 <tangentstorm> ah : load the boot sector again, then go
13:01:58 <tangentstorm> oh weird. it prints the stack backwards from how retro does it
13:02:19 <Mat2> that's standard
13:02:35 <Mat2> these ansi one of course
13:03:08 <Mat2> you will love it ;)
13:04:48 <tangentstorm> haha if you say so!
13:04:58 <tangentstorm> weird having to press enter, too
13:05:27 <Mat2> the first thing you should lok at is the terminal emulation because CP/M have no standard and programs will likely work with different ones
13:05:37 <Mat2> ^look
13:10:51 <tangentstorm> "page" to clear the screen. i should have known that.
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13:13:34 <Mat2> hmm, that was a linux kernel bug
13:13:48 <Mat2> strange
13:13:49 <tangentstorm> yikes
13:18:24 * Mat2 coding machinecode version of AVM with the inline assembler (gas) of FreePascal
13:20:15 * Mat2 finds AT&T syntax very uncommon but familiar for people knowing SPARC assembly
13:24:16 <tangentstorm> you can switch to ibm syntax or whatever assembler you want
13:26:08 <Mat2> I could compile an external procedure and use nasm but that is to much effort for one routine and I know AT&T syntax (it's only I don't use it regulary)
13:27:02 <Mat2> sadly FreePascal don't support Intel syntax for 64 bit code
13:27:21 <tangentstorm> i think even if you use the internal one you can switch the syntax... oh. weird.
13:34:09 <Mat2> addq (%r8), %rax
13:34:17 <Mat2> addq $8, %r8
13:34:28 <Mat2> I can live with it
13:35:22 <Mat2> some macros and it will look like mc680x0 assembly *lol*
14:59:24 <harrison> after reflection i believe that a person who is deeply offended, in irc chat, by another person's not remembering every conversation and every nick on freenode, is emotionally spastic
14:59:37 <harrison> tangentstorm: i mean you
15:00:00 <tangentstorm> well, at least you remember me now :/
15:00:33 <harrison> i am familiar with the trope you just deployed
15:00:52 <harrison> and have a clever response which i won't waste 
15:01:11 <tangentstorm> harrison: i'm sorry. i wasn't offended, and i wasn't trying to be rude yesterday.
15:01:25 <tangentstorm> we've just had the same conversation 3 times
15:03:10 <harrison> did you ever see the movie with tom hanks where he is marooned?
15:03:21 <tangentstorm> castaway... yes
15:03:27 <harrison> i didn't see it because I loathe him as an actor
15:03:33 <harrison> but i know about it
15:03:45 <harrison> anyway, he had a volleyball
15:03:53 <harrison> and he drew a face on it
15:03:58 <tangentstorm> wilson
15:03:58 <harrison> right?
15:04:19 <harrison> if the volleyball had been offended
15:04:30 <harrison> that would be analogous
15:05:11 <harrison> wtf man don't oppress me by trying to make me into what you need i am a volleyball
15:05:34 <harrison> i am not a number
15:05:40 <harrison> I AM A FREE BALL
15:06:23 <harrison> you admit that you were offended that your remembering me was not transitive
15:06:54 <harrison> i would think you would be ashamed 
15:07:03 <harrison> to feel that way
15:07:04 <tangentstorm> no, i accept that you don't remember who you're talking to. i just didn't feel like explaining again why i'm not going to try using aos :)
15:07:42 <harrison> yeah, well, so much for your stone soup theory
15:07:46 <harrison> wilso
15:08:01 <harrison> whatchoo talkin' bout wilson
15:08:51 <harrison> and if you are still open to a bit of advice
15:08:59 <harrison> never complain and never explain
15:11:01 <tangentstorm> okie doke.
15:11:08 <tangentstorm> does that mean we're cool now?
15:11:55 <harrison> Not in any language I am familiar with.
15:12:49 <tangentstorm> ok. :)
15:33:57 <Mat2> have you guys ever programmed in Ada ?
15:38:18 <Mat2> sleep waiting, ciao
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23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/12.11.21