00:00:00 --- log: started retro/12.11.05
00:05:24 <tangentstorm> this thing is running pretty fast now, especially in chrome: http://games.tangentcode.com/retro/src/console.html
00:07:13 <tangentstorm> it would be even faster if we could use a typed array inside of retroImage.js , but when I tried, it would just say "okay" to everything instead of running it.
00:07:23 <tangentstorm> so I'll look into that tomorrow.
00:08:07 <tangentstorm> changelog is here if anyone's interested: https://github.com/tangentstorm/ngaro-js/commits/master
00:08:19 <tangentstorm> later.
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06:26:52 <harrison> This channel was recommended on the Oberon mailing list.
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08:22:15 <tangentgone> hi, harrison... that was me :)
08:22:45 <harrison> i suppose chck moore has passed on...
08:22:52 <harrison> he was old...
08:23:48 <tangentgone> i don't think so...
08:24:10 <tangentgone> http://www.colorforth.com/blog.htm
08:24:22 <tangentgone> unless you've heard something since then?
08:32:40 <harrison> no, i haven't thought about it for years ....
08:32:51 <harrison> his eyesight was not good i remember that
08:33:49 <harrison> ever read manfred van thun's stuff?
08:34:24 <tangentgone> yeah. aside from that, he's alive and well. he runs a company called greenarrays that makes a chip with 144 stack machines
08:34:42 <harrison> cool
08:34:51 <tangentgone> yeah, I've read van thun's work :/
08:35:22 <tangentgone> found out he had died when i went to email him about his book on pascal
08:35:32 <harrison> although why oberon on ngaro on ruby (for instance) would be tempting is something that would have to be explained to me at length....
08:35:32 <tangentgone> retro sort of combines the ideas of forth and joy
08:36:04 <harrison> i wrote a sort of joy-in-oberon a decade ago 
08:36:07 <harrison> "toy"
08:36:11 <tangentgone> although it has a few tricks of its own
08:36:36 <harrison> using not a stack but a simple linked list of boxes
08:36:45 <tangentgone> i still haven't quite gotten my head around the joy side of things
08:37:16 <harrison> i should recode toy 
08:37:28 <harrison> i am so busy with the tracer
08:37:44 <harrison> may i invite you to join #spasim?
08:38:52 <tangentgone> ray tracer?
08:41:36 <harrison> o yes
08:41:40 <harrison> very much so
08:42:59 <harrison> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm9LAaVk69I
08:43:52 <tangentgone> yeah,  was just watching it from your channel ... trippy.
08:43:58 <tangentgone> is that in oberon?
08:44:36 <harrison> yes
08:45:09 <docl> I remember CM passing a while ago, maybe a year. Sad day.
08:50:02 --- nick: tangentgone -> tangentstorm
08:56:55 <tangentstorm> docl: chuck moore? 
09:00:34 <docl> yes
09:01:19 <tangentstorm> docl: his last blog post is from oct 18 2012 ... I don't think he's dead...
09:02:05 <tangentstorm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCarthy_(computer_scientist)  died about a year ago
09:11:22 <docl> Woah I must have gotten very confused.
09:11:31 <docl> Did Jeff Fox die maybe?
09:11:38 <tangentstorm> yes.
09:11:41 <tangentstorm> :/
09:11:58 <tangentstorm> greg mentioned it in his talk at the last forth conference
09:13:48 <docl> That must be where I got confused.
09:14:16 <docl> well, we need to find a way to get Chuck signed up for cryo then! :P
09:15:03 <docl> (Assuming he isn't already, that is.)
09:15:18 <docl> I'm a huge cryonics enthusiast.
09:17:27 <tangentstorm> "pardon me, sir... but might i keep your head in my freezer?"
09:19:21 <docl> haha
09:22:09 <docl> Recently a girl on Reddit who has cancer made some headlines by making her "last request" to be cryopreserved. She raised enough money and now has arrangements with Alcor.
09:24:18 <tangentstorm> Huh.
09:24:34 <tangentstorm> I'm cautiously in favor of the idea.
09:26:48 <tangentstorm> I read this awesome book many years ago, called Time and the Riddle. One of the stories was about a man who had frozen himself, and meanwhile set up a trust.
09:27:47 <tangentstorm> His foundation basically solved all the worlds problems and was now the governing body of earth. Every few years they held a vote to decide whether or not to wake him up. And the answer was always no. :)
09:56:45 <docl> hmm... gotta structure the trust so that they can keep the money if they give me enough to live on. ;)
10:00:51 <docl> Actually if I had my way there would be lots of money going towards the most promising approaches in cryobiology to reduce the damage of the cryopreservation process.
10:03:01 <tangentstorm> :)
10:07:17 <docl> it's hard to say exactly at what point the damage is reversible. in principle, if the information constituting the person's memories is still there, they can be revived. in practice it may be very tricky to get at the information without viable cells/tissue structure.
10:09:56 <tangentstorm> well probably as MRI's get better and better and storage space becomes ever more abundant, they'll just start making backups :)
10:11:16 <docl> so the basic task of cryonics is to manage the uncertainty and minimize the risk *without* necessarily knowing how much risk there is for the patient. for example leaving the patient warm and unperfused for any longer than necessary is a big problem.
10:14:38 <docl> the fact that we can't be certain of the probabilities has led some (a majority of cryobiologists, apparently) to label cryonics as fraudulent or pseudoscience. the mere fact that you can't do a simple experiment to tell if a patient can be reanimated with future technology seems to place it outside the realm of scientific inquiry and in the realm of religion.
10:17:02 <docl> It's a kind of dicey political situation, given that cryonicists are mostly atheistic, and their reasoning is purely secular in nature.
10:18:11 <tangentstorm> well... you're basically gambling on whether you can trust the people to both act in good faith and keep the power on indefinitely
10:21:03 <docl> yes, so obviously the accusation that cryonics is *inherently* fraudulent is distinct from whether *particular companies* are fraudulent.
10:23:07 <docl> it is possible to have a company act in good faith on a bargain without it working out, if an external force prevents them from doing so.
10:23:38 <tangentstorm> yeah
10:23:46 <docl> so the question of whether cryonics is physically possible can be answered without attacking the character of companies trying to carry out the procedure to the best of their ability.
10:26:44 <docl> I haven't seen any good criticism out there that really respects the premises of cryonics. With other things accused of being pseudo-science, you usually get much more detailed rebuttal.
10:31:13 <docl> I tend to think of it as proto-science, something along the lines of SETI but more practical.
10:32:54 <docl> Also I think there's an analogy to how video gaming has pushed computer hardware technology by supplying a market for higher end CPUs and such. Cryonics supplies a market for imperfect cryobiological techniques, while pushing it towards better support for whole organs and organisms.
10:41:46 <tangentstorm> I think you have a point. Sadly, I don't even have any money to lose on the crooked companies at the moment. :)
10:42:14 <docl> Do you have life insurance? That's the main thing.
10:42:17 <tangentstorm> I do have an evil plan to speed up ngaro.js though... :)
10:42:20 <docl> :)
10:42:21 <tangentstorm> yeah
10:44:10 <docl> where can I see the code?
10:44:28 <docl> thanks for letting me rant btw :)
10:44:47 <tangentstorm> https://github.com/tangentstorm/ngaro-js/commits/master
10:45:33 <docl> cool, thanks
10:46:04 <tangentstorm> np... sorry to change the subject. it's interesting, i'm just... i don't know... wanting to ship something...
10:46:20 <docl> totally understand that feeling
10:48:46 <tangentstorm> I've been looking at : https://github.com/tangentstorm/PL0-Language-Tools
10:49:06 <tangentstorm> it's a compiler for a very small pascal-like language that uses a stack machine with an instruction set pretty similar to ngaro's
10:49:17 <tangentstorm> except only one stack
10:49:18 <docl> nice
10:51:29 <tangentstorm> I'm kind of building that out to a) target ngaro, and b) support a full language like oberon
10:55:44 <tangentstorm> http://games.tangentcode.com/retro/src/console.html has the latest code running
10:56:08 <tangentstorm> i think i've introduced a bug... :   1 2 3  .s   shows a 0-size stack, but putn shows 3
10:59:59 <tangentstorm> so... If we're using b2 for the world model, that actually opens up another possibility for the level editor  : inkscape
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11:08:03 <Mat2> hello
11:16:30 <tangentstorm> heya :)
11:42:23 <Mat2> hi tangentstorm !
11:42:37 <Mat2> what's new today ?
11:47:27 <tangentstorm> just got ngaro.js to load a retro image directly as a typed array, rather than dumping it to text.
11:47:43 <tangentstorm> i've got some bugs to fix but otherwise, it's running much faster now
11:48:06 <Mat2> yes it is :)
11:48:48 <Mat2> so retro seem to be ready for firefox os
11:49:18 <tangentstorm> maybe :)
11:50:04 <tangentstorm> the version online is out of date.. pulling latest and greatest now
11:51:01 <Mat2> see you in one hour probably
11:51:20 --- nick: Mat2 -> Mat2atwork
11:51:48 <tangentstorm> http://games.tangentcode.com/retro/src/console.html ... noticible lag downloading the full size image, and has some bugs but it seems to run ok
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12:54:21 --- nick: tangentlunch -> tangentstorm
13:21:41 <tangentstorm> neat.. retro.pas compiles and (except for some major display bugs) runs under dosbox. 
13:29:30 <Mat2> ok, I will fork it and let take a look at the bugs this week
13:30:59 <Mat2> ahm, why do you use dosbox for your development ?
13:31:22 <tangentstorm> ah, it's not a bug. i'm just relying on ansi codes and there's no ansi.sys in the stock dosbox
13:31:26 <tangentstorm> i don't! :)
13:31:45 <tangentstorm> I was talking about retro and ngaro on the oberon list and someone asked if it would run under dosbox
13:32:18 <tangentstorm> i was just figuring out if i could compile it for dos or not :)
13:32:30 <Mat2> so it seems to work
13:35:13 <tangentstorm> yep!
13:35:31 <tangentstorm> i told him if he really wanted to use it I'd get it working, otherwise I'm going to focus on the compiler.
13:39:49 <Mat2> so you have good news for him
13:40:00 <tangentstorm> yep
13:41:22 <tangentstorm> well. i think my plan is to find and fix whatever bugs i introduced in this javascript version using the test suite, then try out your character display for pascal.. and then get to work on the compiler :)
13:42:56 <Mat2> fine, I will upload it tomorrow after work
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13:46:11 <Mat2> you just need to replace the port routines for text display
13:53:17 <Mat2> go to bed, ciao
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14:47:15 <harrison> i am getting a nonlinux vibe here
14:47:59 <harrison> dosbox?
14:48:24 <tangentstorm> ngaro runs everywhere
14:48:37 <harrison> instead of running oberon on ngaro on ruby in dosbox
14:49:07 <harrison> why not run oberon on linux and code ngaro in that?
14:49:12 <tangentstorm> i suppose you could do that if you wanted , if ruby runs on dos :)
14:49:32 <tangentstorm> why not run oberon on oberon?
14:49:39 <harrison> no no i am using the ruby as an example of horribility
14:50:06 <harrison> i like aos native ie active oberon on bare metal
14:50:09 <tangentstorm> the point of ngaro is it runs everywhere is all i'm saying
14:50:27 <harrison> out with it! stop being coy!
14:50:27 <tangentstorm> it actually does not yet have an oberon implementation, but it wouldn't be hard
14:50:37 <harrison> do you run linux or not?
14:50:54 <tangentstorm> on some of my machines, yeah
14:51:26 <harrison> http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~fld/UnixAos/
14:51:42 <harrison> this is what i use and it works wonderfully well
14:52:04 <tangentstorm> i've used winaos 
14:52:27 <harrison> if you install this and play with it and decide to code ngaro in oberon
14:52:31 <tangentstorm> i was looking at installing the old native oberon directly on my old G4 mac
14:52:36 <harrison> i hereby promise to help you
14:52:53 <harrison> i was reluctant to leave NO too
14:52:57 <harrison> i loved it
14:53:11 <harrison> but you have to try aos
14:53:15 <harrison> really you must
14:53:30 <tangentstorm> i have used AOS.. i love the zooming
14:53:48 <tangentstorm> the latest version created some kind of toolbar or task switcher bar that messes up my screen though
14:54:12 <tangentstorm> and the font hurts my eyes and i don't know how to change it
14:55:55 <tangentstorm> i know those are small dumb things but they're major stumbling blocks for me
14:58:18 <tangentstorm> i've actually spent a good number of hours trying to change the font :)
15:00:38 <docl> harrison: I run linux
15:17:51 <harrison> the only bummer about unixaos is that it doesn't do the zooming UI
15:18:12 <harrison> docl: fast multicore cpu?
15:23:51 <harrison> https://github.com/harrisonpartch/xenoxolotl
15:24:12 <harrison> that's both aos and the tracer
15:24:17 <harrison> togetherish
15:45:58 <docl> I have a laptop, think it's multicore and relatively fast
15:46:15 <docl> couldn't get aos to work for some reason
15:47:34 <docl> I tried the Linux version from http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~fld/UnixAos/rev.5005/
15:49:17 <docl> I get "/usr/bin/aos: 39: exec: /usr/aos/aos.linux: not found" despite that file actually existing and having the executable bit set. weird.
16:21:00 <harrison> oh that is a tricky bug
16:21:10 <harrison> it is the line ending bug
16:21:33 <harrison> try editing the script and putting spaces at the end of the lines
16:21:57 <harrison> CR vs LF or some such
17:21:37 <docl> what script, the /usr/bin/aos one?
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19:58:38 <tangentstorm> docl: try running dos2unix /usr/bin/aos ... then chmod the execute bits back on
20:05:12 <docl> still didn't work
20:05:36 <docl> for some reason it is claiming the file /usr/aos/aos.linux doesn't exist. this happens when 
20:05:43 <docl> I try to run it directly as well
20:06:27 <tangentstorm> oh
20:06:34 <tangentstorm> then run dos2unix on that file.
20:06:43 <tangentstorm> unless it's a binary file?
20:07:22 * tangentstorm really has no idea
20:15:47 <tangentstorm> docl: did I hear you wrote the console font encoder thing for ngaro.js ?
20:18:09 <tangentstorm> looks like a png file inside... i'm trying to get colored fg and bg working per character... trying to track down the raw data for the font
20:22:00 <docl> oh cool
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