00:00:00 --- log: started retro/12.10.08
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07:58:58 <erider> sorry tangentstorm I didn't follow 
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13:15:35 <erider> hi all 
13:33:20 <erider> crc: :main lit, 1  lit, 2 +, out,
13:33:57 <erider> with this image print 3 
13:58:15 <crc> erider: no
13:58:40 <crc> that will crash (not enough items on the stack for the out opcode)
13:58:52 <crc> and you'll need a routine to convert the number to a string
13:59:07 <crc> (console output is by character code, one char at a time)
13:59:37 * crc is getting ready to leave work, will try to help with this when he gets home (about an hour)
14:01:29 * erider is viewing both kernal.rx and assembler.rx for clues
14:01:38 <erider> kernel* 
14:04:04 <tangentstorm> erider: out doesn't print, it puts a value in one of the ports
14:04:53 <erider>  :main lit, 1  lit, 2 +,  0; 1 # 2 # out, wait 
14:05:17 <tangentstorm> hrm
14:05:26 <erider> oops 
14:05:54 <erider> :main lit, 1 m, lit, 2 m, +,  0; 1 # 2 # out, wait 
14:06:18 <tangentstorm> erider: what are you trying to do?
14:07:16 <erider> ok I think I don't need lit, 1 m, lit, 2 m, it can be reduced to  1 # 2 # 
14:07:53 <tangentstorm> : main 1 2 + putn ;
14:08:02 <erider> tangentstorm: I am trying to code directly into ngaro with the api in assembler.rx 
14:08:04 <tangentstorm> that prints 3
14:08:32 <tangentstorm> ah
14:08:34 <erider> tangentstorm: I am creating an image that will print 
14:08:45 <tangentstorm> ok
14:09:30 <erider> well trying 
14:09:56 <tangentstorm> so to make any io thing happen, you always write " 0 0 out "
14:10:01 <erider> tangentstorm: btw what were you talking about with the b4 example you linked to me 
14:10:02 <tangentstorm> and then "wait"
14:10:37 * tangentstorm never remembers what he was talking about :)
14:11:26 <tangentstorm> b4 is sort of my catch-all project for forth stuff... it was going to be a forth language
14:11:44 <erider> :main 1 # 2 # +, 0 # 0 # out, wait 
14:12:01 <erider> do I need "wait"
14:12:07 <tangentstorm> yes
14:12:11 <tangentstorm> but you also need to actually tell it to print
14:12:14 <tangentstorm> it's three steps
14:12:38 <tangentstorm> step 1 : x y out   to request the print of a character
14:12:48 <tangentstorm> i don't know the x and y off the top of my head
14:13:12 <tangentstorm> step 2 :  0 0 out    to clear the lock on the io ports
14:13:25 <tangentstorm> step 3 : wait     to actually trigger the hardware event loop
14:14:23 <erider> :main 1 # 2 # +, 0 # 0 # out, wait so this should work 
14:14:31 * erider is going to try it
14:14:40 <tangentstorm> you're still missing step 1
14:15:00 <erider> 0 # 0 # out, is step 1 right 
14:15:32 <erider> ah x, y coords 
14:15:55 <erider> so I need to have 0 # 0 # out 
14:16:08 <tangentstorm> sorry, they're not coordinates... 
14:16:17 <tangentstorm> they're a value and a port number
14:17:23 <tangentstorm> #1 #2 out,     will request a print of whatever character is on TOS
14:17:44 <erider> :main 1 # 2 # +, 1# 2# out, 0 # 0 # out, wait 
14:17:48 <tangentstorm> then  #0 #0 out, wait   makes it actually work
14:17:59 <tangentstorm> that looks right to me
14:19:16 * erider is off to create an image
14:19:25 <tangentstorm> oh, it's  1 # or #1 ... not 1#
14:19:32 <tangentstorm> good luck :)
14:20:19 <erider> 1# ?
14:20:22 <erider> hmm 
14:20:48 <erider> need spaces :9 
14:20:51 <tangentstorm> yes
14:23:22 * erider wonders if he has to echo $? to see the output
14:25:19 <tangentstorm> erider: you won't see the output :)
14:26:15 <tangentstorm> the output will be the ascii character #3 ... it's a control character for START OF TEXT
14:26:27 <tangentstorm> er.. END OF TEXT
14:26:42 <tangentstorm> it's the character you get when you press control-C
14:27:11 <tangentstorm> to see a three, you'd need to output whatever ord('3') is
14:27:19 <tangentstorm> 51
14:27:32 <tangentstorm> 51 putc from the retro prompt will output 3
14:28:29 <erider> ok trying it again 
14:29:21 <tangentstorm> http://www.ascii-codes.com/
14:29:40 <erider> nothing 
14:30:06 <erider> :main 30 # 21 # +, 1 # 2 # out, 0 # 0 # out, wait
14:30:50 <erider> hmm I may need to import kernel.rx 
14:30:54 <tangentstorm> try a comma after the wait ?
14:31:04 <tangentstorm> i don't know, i've not used the assembler.rx
14:31:14 <tangentstorm> looking now
14:31:43 <erider> yeah you are right wait, 
14:32:39 <erider> yesssssssssss! it worked 
14:32:51 <tangentstorm> :)
14:33:27 <erider> hmm kernel my have a better api to use for the vm 
14:33:44 <tangentstorm> kernel is the actual retro language
14:34:04 <erider> I know :-) that is why 
14:34:14 <tangentstorm> :)
14:34:45 <erider> things like putn are defined 
14:35:02 <tangentstorm> yeah
14:35:36 <tangentstorm> if you just want to scale it back, you could cut kernel.rx right before where it says "stage 3"
14:36:28 <tangentstorm> oh.. sorry. stage 3 is in doc/Commentary.txt ...
14:36:54 <tangentstorm> I meant right after "endKernel shrink bootNew"
14:37:22 <tangentstorm> everything from that point is "stage 3" in the commentary
14:37:58 <tangentstorm> it defines the bulk of the retro language in terms of the core defined in the top half of the file
14:40:14 <erider> tangentstorm: you are working on something to that effect with that perl script right 
14:40:26 <erider> affect 
14:46:08 <erider> tangentstorm: do you know with t: is defined 
14:51:00 <erider> nevermind it is in meta 
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15:49:49 <crc> erider: I could probably put together a small library of basic functions for use with the assembler
15:51:37 <erider> I was working on something like that but I keep getting seg fault, trying to mix and match from meta.rx, kernel.rx and assember.rx is not working out for me at the moment 
15:54:28 <crc> I'll get something up and running this week
15:56:01 <erider> I just want to clean up and api that I can use to craft images for ngaro 
15:56:16 <erider> some APIs 
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16:22:55 <erider> crc: hey 
16:23:59 <crc> yes?
16:24:55 <erider> ah darn nevermind sorry I thought I had something 
16:37:23 <tangentstorm> back
16:37:44 <erider> wb
16:39:52 <tangentstorm> erider: the perl script is kind of redundant once you have meta.rx or assembler.rx
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16:40:42 <erider> tangentstorm: redundant? how so its another option 
16:40:48 <tangentstorm> i'm trying to make a class that walks people through building things from scratch, so i'm doing everything in a really un-necessary  way :)
16:41:20 <erider> bcompiler 
16:41:24 <erider> :) 
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16:48:03 <tangentstorm> yep, something like that. it's going to be a pascal/oberon compiler that targets retro, and then maybe some other compilers that use that as an intermediate language
17:18:39 <erider> tangentstorm: ok 
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17:36:10 <erider> did we all go to sleep 
17:36:21 <tangentstorm> no :) hey
17:36:44 * tangentstorm is fixing his bootstrap assembler
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17:47:30 <tangentstorm> crc: is it possible to resize the image dynamically?
17:52:15 <erider> ngaro.b4a is what 
17:52:50 <tangentstorm> erider : it's an input file for b4asm in that same directory
17:53:22 <erider> does it make an image 
17:53:24 <tangentstorm> if run  b4asm ngaro.b4a   you should get an ngaro image that crashes :)
17:53:35 <erider> oh
17:53:37 <tangentstorm> er "if you run"
17:53:53 <tangentstorm> i actually haven't tried running it 
17:54:23 <tangentstorm> and now i'm being called away. 
17:54:31 <tangentstorm> crc : nm. i don't need to resize it.
17:54:32 <tangentstorm> bbl
17:54:42 <erider> it is an image of ngaro that will run on ngaro? 
18:26:06 <tangentstorm> back
18:26:26 <erider> wb 
18:27:27 <tangentstorm> erider: yeah, the idea is i'm building an image by hand, cell by cell
18:27:57 <erider> hey are you done with the pascal port 
18:28:00 <tangentstorm> anything in parens is ignored. anything with a : in front of it is just recording the current position
18:28:42 <tangentstorm> and anything else just grabs the number from the list of remembered items
18:29:27 <tangentstorm> erider: it runs but there's a bug in it... if you compile and run retro.pas, it will halt and show a debugger
18:30:11 <erider> oh 
18:30:45 <tangentstorm> i think i just mistranslated one or more of the opcodes. i was planning to write a little test suite soon
18:30:51 <tangentstorm> but to do that i needed to be able to generate images :)
18:31:14 <erider> that is neat that you are doing it pascal. I haven't seen that language in awhile since delphi replaced it 
18:32:08 * erider would be interesting in that
18:32:57 <tangentstorm> i'm using the free pascal compiler ( freepascal.org ) at the moment... it's mostly delphi compatible
18:32:58 <erider> seems like crc is going to make something with words we can use to make images 
18:33:43 <erider> words == APIs 
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18:36:27 <tangentstorm> oh? ( reading back )
18:37:16 <erider> erider: I could probably put together a small library of basic functions for use with the assembler
18:37:26 <erider> I'll get something up and running this week
18:38:41 <tangentstorm> ah :) cool
18:39:05 <tangentstorm> did you figure out why things aren't working for you when you mix and match from those files?
18:39:09 <erider> but what you are working on it interesting to 
18:39:11 <erider> too 
18:39:27 <erider> seg fault 
18:39:35 <erider> partly 
18:40:10 <erider> I was trying to get puts to work 
18:40:38 <erider> putc seems to work now 
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18:41:03 <erider> the t: and i: are useful 
18:41:13 <erider> good to define things 
18:41:24 <erider> but something it breaking 
18:41:33 <erider> is breaking** 
18:41:55 <tangentstorm> did you read through doc/Commentary.txt ?
18:42:13 <erider> no not completely 
18:42:37 <tangentstorm> you should look at it side by side with the code from kernel.rx
18:42:43 <tangentstorm> and meta.rx
18:42:52 <tangentstorm> meta.rx first actually
18:43:06 <tangentstorm> Commentary.txt walks you through those files and explains what they're doing
18:43:11 <erider> I was and meta-alt
18:43:40 * erider needs to look at Commentary.txt completely
18:44:32 <tangentstorm> meta-alt.rx and meta.rx do the same thing, or are supposed to. the -alt one does it at a low level close to the vm, the plain one uses high level retro words
18:44:52 <erider> I am happy that I got an image to run and product some output ;-) 
18:45:11 <tangentstorm> yeah! :)
18:45:23 <erider> that is progress 
18:45:25 <tangentstorm> what's your plan now? :)
18:46:10 <erider> it a good API to use and start making images to run on top of ngaro 
18:48:57 <tangentstorm> i was going to say that the reason you can't mix and match from those files is because the words in kernel.rx depend on meta.rx being there first... And they're not normal retro words...  i: and t: are like the   top and bottom parts in a {{ --reveal-- }}  section
18:49:21 <tangentstorm> i: is all hidden and t: is what gets exposed
18:50:04 <tangentstorm> so you can't just cut and paste t: words that depend on i: words because retro doesn't know the i: words
18:50:12 <tangentstorm> they're just helpers
18:52:20 <tangentstorm> did that make any sense? :)
18:54:12 <crc> erider: http://sprunge.us/CiNc for a simple 'hello world' image using the assembler
18:57:19 <crc> 81 cells in size. could be made smaller, but this should be suitable as an example
19:00:57 <tangentstorm> @crc that assembler is pretty handy
19:09:59 <crc> tangentstorm: I need to finish documenting it, and provide some usage examples
19:18:25 <crc> I'll get a version with some additional documentation up tomorrow, and start on a library of i/o related functions and stuff that might be useful
19:20:27 <tangentstorm> why    8 >> dup applyMask writeByte          ?
19:20:40 <tangentstorm> in writecell?
19:24:50 <crc> file i/o is byte by byte; this shifts out each section of the cell and writes it in order into the appImage file
19:26:08 <tangentstorm> oh. duh. :)
19:26:34 <tangentstorm> i was reading >> as "shift right one bit" instead of seeing the 8 as the number of bits to shift. makes perfect sense now.
19:26:52 <tangentstorm> thanks
19:27:01 <crc> no problem
19:27:43 <crc> rev 372 has additional documentation added to assembler.rx's doc{ ... block
19:28:21 <crc> that merges in the last few notes I had written on it originally
20:07:11 <docl> yeah that assembler is pretty nifty
20:10:24 <tangentstorm> hrm..    0 variable: xyz +xyz   halts the vm. why doesn't that work when +heap does?
20:11:07 <tangentstorm> oh. an underflow
20:14:13 <tangentstorm> trying to let the assembler make more than one image. i added a saveImageAs ... now i want to reclaim the memory
20:14:24 <tangentstorm> : reclaim    (  n-  ) -heap ;
20:14:28 <tangentstorm> should be that easy, right?
20:14:51 <tangentstorm> then    MAX-APP-SIZE reclaim 
20:27:42 <docl> you mean !heap ?
20:28:40 <tangentstorm> docl: no, like....   10 +heap 
20:28:54 <docl> ahh
20:29:20 <tangentstorm> why is the writer for opcode 25   0; instead of 0;, ?
20:29:38 <tangentstorm> in meta.rx, meta-alt.rx, and the assembler.
20:41:25 <tangentstorm> i get it. you'd never just do a raw 0; .. it's only used inside the compiler
20:43:22 <docl> yeah it's a compiler word
20:45:01 <tangentstorm> i gotta say, it annoys me now when i type e-x-it 
20:45:15 <tangentstorm> er e-x-i-t-space at the shell and it doesn't just exit :)
20:46:25 <tangentstorm> the bash shell i mean.
20:49:58 <docl> yeah
20:50:27 <docl> why isn't it executing? oh yeah I need to hit enter
20:51:40 <docl> space is so much more ergonomic... :)
21:14:42 <kumul> tangentstorm: whats wrong with ctrl+d ?
21:15:39 <tangentstorm> kumul: nothing. i use ^D too... exit was just the last command i happened to type
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21:31:11 <tangentstorm> clear
21:31:14 <tangentstorm> gah
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