00:00:00 --- log: started retro/12.09.02 05:37:10 --- join: erider (~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 05:37:14 hi all 06:24:12 --- join: erider_ (~chatzilla@pool-173-69-153-119.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) joined #retro 06:25:44 --- quit: erider (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 06:25:52 --- nick: erider_ -> erider 06:40:27 --- join: Mat2 (~quassel@91-64-133-197-dynip.superkabel.de) joined #retro 06:40:40 hello 06:49:16 whats up Mat2 06:49:35 hi erider 06:50:03 low-level debugging 06:50:59 and i'm working on some kind of trace compiling 06:51:09 sorry compiler I mean 06:53:06 what's new ? 06:55:26 nothing too new 06:55:26 I have been playing with clojure a little and toka 06:57:50 Mat2: I have been playing minecraft 06:57:53 too 06:58:28 which toka version do you use ? 06:59:33 1.1 06:59:37 I suggest clojure is a scheme or lisp dialect for NET or Java, right ? 06:59:49 yes 07:00:23 what is your experience wih both ? 07:00:51 I need to use java but I don't like java so this is the happy middle ground 07:01:02 I had played a bit with toka some time ago 07:01:19 I have access from clojure into java libs 07:01:41 I am a scheme guy 07:03:02 impomatic: joy is interesting, wow forth is cool, no syntax makes things easy to give off the ground 07:05:00 joy is a functional cousin of forth much more like facor 07:05:31 I mean factor 07:06:14 yeah 07:06:33 but it is still stack based 07:06:44 also it looks like toka :) 07:06:49 beside that I'm very productive with forth 07:07:54 I think crc have create toka with factor in mind as some kind of modern forth wihout the large runtime envirioment :) 07:09:06 the current factor vm is something about 33 mB without image file, I would call that huge 07:09:14 Mat2: I wish I can get productive with forth 07:09:34 I need to find a project I guess : ( 07:10:13 implement a game as exercise, like pacman for example 07:11:30 ok that sounds good 07:11:33 this way you learn factoring he hard way though performance optimization with visible feedback 07:11:36 in retro I meant 07:12:37 Mat2: how much longer are you going to be around today? 07:13:16 I have to head up the street but I will be back a little later. Can we talk then? 07:13:48 the whole day I think, I will finish some programming and documentation asks 07:14:27 ok ping you then when I get back 07:14:34 Implement a simple text adventure as an exercise... 07:14:42 have fun 07:14:46 ciao 07:14:52 brb 08:27:19 toka was my testbed for exploring the use of quotations in a stack based environment 08:28:44 ok 08:30:23 parable is probably best viewed as an attempt to build a more practical modern forth thank toka was 08:36:58 do you plan to port retro to parable ? 08:42:49 no, though I am looking into using parable to create images for the ngaro virtual machine 08:44:46 crc: My attempt to download the source package for the latest snapshot fail: 08:44:50 The requested URL /snapshot.tar.gz was not found on this server 08:45:02 for retro? 08:45:07 yes 08:45:12 I'll fix that 08:46:59 I have begun porting retro to my own vm (that's fun but time a time consuming ask because I must rewrite most parts from scratch) 08:49:19 sorry I mean task (broken 't' key -> very old USB keyboard from my old iMac) 08:58:09 Mat2: the snapshot should work now 08:58:55 thank you 09:04:15 hm, I try to load http://www.retroforth.com/snapshot.tar.gz 09:06:57 --- join: Kumul (~Kumul@67.224.135.43) joined #retro 09:07:47 can't access your location 09:13:09 try from retroforth.org 09:14:13 ok, have he snapshot 09:16:07 looks like my mirror update script is broken; the .com and .net domains should be fixed within a few minutes 09:19:16 back 09:21:31 wb 09:21:36 thanks 09:28:06 ok, the update script is fixed 09:28:32 hi crc 09:29:11 hi erider 09:29:21 how are you doing today 09:29:27 pretty good 09:30:44 crc: what kind of images are you thinking about making 09:30:50 with parable 09:45:39 most of the programs I write are uninteresting (tools for work, solutions to logic puzzles) 09:54:51 i c 09:56:16 there are combinators in retro right 10:03:13 yes 10:11:25 example 10:14:29 100 [ 1 + ] [ 1 - ] bi 10:14:40 would return 101 and 99 on the stack 10:14:49 bi ? 10:15:13 bi is the combinator, it applies each quote to a copy of a value 10:17:01 the main ones in retro are covered at http://rx-core.org/docs/An_Introduction_to_Retro.html 10:17:19 good deal 10:19:23 I find the use of combinators to be helpful in keeping down use of primitive stack operations. 10:19:45 100 dup 1 + swap 1 - 10:20:19 is less readable IMO 10:20:30 Yeah I was trying to figure out why they were important 10:21:20 especially if you want to do three things: 100 [ 1 + ] [ 2 + ] [ 3 + ] tri or 100 dup >r 1 + r@ 2 + r> 3 + 10:23:27 I was reading up on them and the texts was saying that they are good to eliminate recursion too 10:24:29 recursion can be ok, if you have deep enough stacks 10:24:39 if memory is tight though, it becomes a problem 10:25:16 with combinators? 10:27:25 recursion 10:27:31 ah ok 10:28:37 we get higher order words with quotes right 10:28:52 or functions whatever you want to call them 10:29:10 basically, yes 10:30:32 crc: In case of deep recursions the compiler should support tail call optimization 10:31:33 true. retro doesn't do this though, and parable has no support for recursion at this point 10:33:00 *Mat2 remark this in his to-do list 10:37:16 however, I don't understand how combinators would help to eleminate recursions 10:41:38 not sure either but I read that somewhere 10:44:54 I've seen references to using combinators to memoize recursive functions 10:47:58 what's the true definition of a combinator 10:54:09 I use the factor definition, which is basically a function that takes other functions as inputs 10:56:43 higher order functions 10:57:49 yes 10:58:10 terminology wow 10:58:17 brb 11:20:50 it's late here, get some sleep 11:20:55 ciao 11:21:00 --- quit: Mat2 (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 12:47:03 --- join: arescorpio (~arescorpi@222-206-17-190.fibertel.com.ar) joined #retro 14:52:50 --- quit: arescorpio (Quit: Leaving.) 14:59:36 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 15:09:53 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #retro 15:57:14 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 16:01:47 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #retro 17:00:38 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 17:10:54 --- join: karswell (~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk) joined #retro 18:10:17 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: impomatic) 20:33:04 --- quit: Kumul (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:38:46 --- join: arescorpio (~arescorpi@222-206-17-190.fibertel.com.ar) joined #retro 20:39:18 --- join: Kumul (~Kumul@67.224.135.43) joined #retro 21:09:00 --- quit: Kumul (Quit: gone) 21:09:28 --- join: Kumul (~Kumul@67.224.135.43) joined #retro 22:49:01 --- quit: arescorpio (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:10:27 --- quit: Kumul (Quit: gone) 23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/12.09.02