00:00:00 --- log: started retro/12.03.27
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04:33:30 <CIA-98> retro: 03crc <crc@questor> * rcrc@questor-20120327113250-g3r3cgid8072qoa2 10rx/doc/ (notes notes/The_Naming_of_Retro.txt): add historical note explaining how Retro was named
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10:26:53 <__tthomas__> crc is anything missing in current C# version, I am thinking about updating it and experimenting with it a bit..
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10:53:35 <crc> __tthomas__: it lacks file i/o
10:54:17 <crc> apart from that, I think all of the other essentials are present and working
10:54:17 <__tthomas__> K, cool... I thought you mentioned that, is it mono compatible?
10:54:21 <crc> yes
10:54:53 <crc> I run it under mono most of the time
10:56:37 <__tthomas__> mono works on windows as well, so should be testable.. 
11:38:06 <CIA-98> retro: 03crc <crc@questor> * rcrc@questor-20120327183742-3y9c6ivv2lhh6dbc 10rx/vm/complete/retro.s: add missing queries to assembly implementation
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12:08:50 <Mat2> G'day
12:24:47 <__tthomas__> hi
12:25:01 <Mat2> Hi !
12:26:07 <__tthomas__> how is the hacking going?
12:26:21 <Mat2> very well
12:27:04 <Mat2> terminal control now works as espected
12:27:43 <Mat2> and i've found some undocumented functions for mapping framebuffers
12:28:10 <__tthomas__> Cool..
12:28:55 <__tthomas__> I picked up an XNA book yesterday after talking about retro on xbox.. heh, I am just going to play around with XNA version on windows a bit..
12:30:07 <Mat2> I thought XNA is the C# framework for xbox ?
12:30:38 <__tthomas__> nope, xna is directx bindings for .net, works on windows, xbox and windows phone..
12:30:55 <Mat2> ah ok
12:31:59 <Mat2> for windows i'm concentrate on metro development at current
12:32:02 <__tthomas__> very similar to SDL which is layer that encapsulates framebuffer input and audio for windows, linux and bsd's..
12:32:37 <Mat2> ok, for such purposes I use allegro and OpenGL
12:32:42 <__tthomas__> I am sticking with things I can port, so basic canvas, keyboardIO...
12:33:08 <__tthomas__> hoping be a direct port to processing and haxenme
12:33:42 <__tthomas__> pixels are very hacky on xna..
12:34:46 <Mat2> let me overview an old book for direct-x programming, one moment
12:35:44 <Mat2> ok, direct-x founded on the com protocol as I suggested
12:36:15 <__tthomas__> yep, very dirty hack to fake late binding
12:36:59 <Mat2> microsoft designers semm to be sadistic
12:37:08 <Mat2> seems
12:38:09 <__tthomas__> making a lib that works via dll for both c and c++ is insanely difficult..
12:38:57 <Mat2> that is true
12:39:29 <__tthomas__> though linux solution for new gcc with new C++ ABI is recompile everything and don't even bother making C/C++ interop, if want C++ write wrappers around C library..
12:40:44 <Mat2> that can be one reason for apple choosing objective c
12:41:18 <__tthomas__> heh, I am sure objective c is not without its faults... C# isn't a bad language, its like java with less restrictions..
12:44:02 <Mat2> in my opinion the c# class library is better designed
12:44:55 <__tthomas__> I liked limbo a lot, wish it would have taken off...
12:45:21 <Mat2> the microsoft solution seems to be: All language based on the same run-time library - CLr
12:45:31 <Mat2> CLR^
12:46:26 <__tthomas__> CLR is the virtual machine.. Common Language Runtime.. has a subset of types, CLS allowed across all languages... I think there is also a standard library.. it is an open standard..
12:47:28 <__tthomas__> so c#, visual basic.net, managed c++, f# and boo all compile code directly to IL that runs on CLR
12:48:51 <__tthomas__> IL = Intermediate Language...
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12:50:46 <Mat2> hmm, server problems
12:51:12 <__tthomas__> our router died last night, it isn't even 2 months old..
12:51:53 <Mat2> oh, thats not common
12:52:47 <__tthomas__> It died hard, had a single orange light, and wouldn't register any of the ethernet ports...
12:53:13 <Mat2> I had worked for a company where all router and switches burned because of a heat problem
12:57:15 <Mat2> but otherwise now bad experience with routers
12:57:31 <__tthomas__> We go through routers pretty fast.. 
13:01:54 <Mat2> This can happen when voltage fluctuations are not captured
13:02:03 <Mat2> but who knows
13:02:31 <__tthomas__> true, we don't use high quality power strips that clean up voltage..
13:02:53 <__tthomas__> the transformer that comes with router, probably doesn't deal well with that either..
13:07:17 <Mat2> hmm, you should check this up
13:08:27 <Mat2> nice, xterm support mouse catching
13:08:39 <__tthomas__> eh?
13:09:19 <Mat2> you can read mouse coordinats from within a escape sequence
13:09:26 <Mat2> coordinates
13:09:50 <__tthomas__> hmmm.. weird..
13:10:03 <Mat2> yes but probably useful
13:10:15 <__tthomas__> heh, doesn't sound useful..
13:10:20 <__tthomas__> sounds hacky..
13:10:28 <Mat2> it's hacky :D
13:10:51 <__tthomas__> be like writing a terminal that sends mouse position...
13:12:56 <Mat2> yes, thats another escape sequence
13:13:23 <Mat2> I don't know if this is an exploit or a feature
13:14:06 <__tthomas__> I like this protocol.. http://www.moo.mud.org/mcp/
13:16:20 <Mat2> oh an old idea from xlisp, nice
13:16:49 <__tthomas__> I was thinking from telnet with Out of Band commands, like echo..
13:18:01 <__tthomas__> It is particularly designed for remote editing code.. which is awesome..
13:18:47 <Mat2> useful for sure
13:21:18 <Mat2> ah, I can set the screen mode
13:23:40 <Mat2> lot of fun with uncommon escape sequences
13:27:19 <Mat2> that should not be possible
13:28:45 <Mat2> and why the heck unpriveligated programs are able to read and write to the port bus ?
13:31:10 <__tthomas__> heh, because computers are designed by people that don't know how to use them.. :)
13:32:50 <Mat2> *sign*
13:36:46 <Mat2> have you take a look of the windows 8 beta ?
13:36:57 <__tthomas__> not yet, been hearing a lot about it..
13:38:00 <Mat2> you will need a touchpanel for it or hanging up learning unintuitive key combinations
13:38:17 <__tthomas__> I know the keyboard combos quite well, so shouldn't be an issue..
13:39:21 <Mat2> reminds me of windows 3 program manager .. these start panel
13:39:39 <__tthomas__> from my understanding the old ones all work.. like windows-d, windows-f, windows-l, cntrl-shft-esc
13:40:55 <Mat2> you need some new one for navigating though hidden menus
13:41:32 <__tthomas__> the windows activation key? I use that one all the time vs. right clicking..
13:41:49 <Mat2> yes
13:42:05 <__tthomas__> yeah, that is old, just not used a lot.. I just started using it last year.. 
13:42:45 <__tthomas__> windows is very hot key heavy, most people don't bother to learn or even know about it, and just use mouse for everything..
13:43:39 <__tthomas__> I personally don't really like mice, except for certain applications.. its faster to never take your hands off keyboard..
13:46:58 <Mat2> yes, that's why I found Canon Cat's interface intuitive (beside the hidden forth system underneath)
13:47:25 <__tthomas__> I got to see a canon cat at forth day, guy did a presentation on it and showed off a couple of them..
13:48:12 <Mat2> I had watched the video
13:48:31 <Mat2> this machine is very rare
13:48:33 <__tthomas__> I wonder how hard it would be to write a canon cat clone..
13:48:49 <Mat2> I think of an emulator
13:51:55 <Mat2> hey, seem to exist one already
13:52:22 <__tthomas__> I was thinking more as a retro application.. :)
13:52:55 <Mat2> good idea
13:55:04 <__tthomas__> I am looking at doing XNA port of C# A) I know C# version needs file IO, B) chance to see how new console ports would work with framebuffer vs. console..
13:56:39 <__tthomas__> besides, its good to program in more variety of languages to determine what the best features to steal are..
13:56:51 <Mat2> sadly, I know nothing about XNA
13:57:38 <Mat2> look at F#, there's much to steal#
13:58:16 <__tthomas__> it is only somewhat useful to know, my job starting off I did C# direct x programming which has been deprecated and replaced by XNA.. though my work is kind of stuck with direct x.. XNA only supports direct x 9, and they are up to 11 now..
13:58:52 <__tthomas__> I am not sure if XNA is going to windows 8 or not..
14:00:38 <Mat2> no
14:01:02 <__tthomas__> So is managed direct x coming back?
14:01:32 <__tthomas__> windows 8 is supposed to be unifying .net and c++ with with winrt library..
14:01:38 <__tthomas__> and finally getting rid of win32..
14:05:57 <Mat2> http://thriftynerd.com/2011/09/no-xna-in-windows-8/
14:06:52 <__tthomas__> XNA CAN be used to build Windows 8 apps, they just won’t be able to write “Metro” apps, and will not be able to be sold in Microsoft’s application storefront.
14:07:40 <Mat2> yes, but I bet it will not be longer supported in near future
14:08:06 <__tthomas__> I read something similar to that about games in general.. metro is kind of a seperate beast, I think of it as the new silverlight..
14:08:45 <__tthomas__> the reason is games have tight loops for performance, so can't play nice with metro.. there will be games for metro, but they won't be like the next halo, more like tetris and sodoku..
14:09:57 <Mat2> probably the reason is a replecement for the upcomming xbox
14:10:03 <Mat2> replacement
14:10:35 <__tthomas__> will be curious to see, looks like microsoft is killing and consolidating a lot of their api's..
14:12:26 <Mat2> that's good
14:15:59 <Mat2> you can download the entire sources for the canon cad roms here:
14:16:03 <Mat2> http://groups.google.com/group/canon-cat/browse_thread/thread/5823d12bcb778c84
14:20:09 <__tthomas__> I think the biggest factor is windows phone, xbox and windows are all switching to nt8 kernel, so they are finally killing win32 and having a unified library for all platforms, phone and xbox will be a subset most likely..
14:21:22 <Mat2> just reading the descendant to XNA will be D3D, but that's a rumour
14:21:49 <Mat2> fits perfect in the strategy to uniform all platforms
14:22:48 <Mat2> hmm, my next desktop wil be a mac
14:23:51 <Mat2> if I want a tablet os, prefering android (that runs on my netbook without much problems)
14:23:52 <__tthomas__> I don't do apple anything..
14:24:55 <Mat2> not a fan of apple either
14:25:10 <__tthomas__> I refuse to give them any money..
14:25:48 <Mat2> Apple is like Sony...
14:26:34 <__tthomas__> yeah, and I try not to give Sony money, but I consume digital content via netflix and hulu..
14:27:45 <__tthomas__> I think MPAA and RIAA is a terrorist organization that should be prosecuted for breaking into peoples computers with highest possible penalty..
14:27:54 <__tthomas__> cyber terrorist I mean..
14:28:05 <__tthomas__> but we have the best government money can buy..
14:29:46 <__tthomas__> I love my country, with exception of what lobbyists and their lawyers can get away with..
14:31:23 <Mat2> american politicans get huge impressions here in europe specially someone with name sarah palin ;)
14:32:06 <Mat2> but beside that lobbyism is a plague for our societies
14:32:11 <Mat2> too
14:33:06 <__tthomas__> thankfully there could be worse complaints about government.. :)
14:35:33 <Mat2> I need some sleep
14:35:36 <Mat2> see you
14:35:51 <__tthomas__> later man..
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18:13:01 <__tthomas__> crc Looks like two failures for files on windows version of C implementation, one on size, other on slurp.. size one I get, and I can fix.. 
18:24:57 <__tthomas__> I think on windows need to always open file in binary mode, since fread always strips CR..
18:31:05 <__tthomas__> That fixed python and c versions, they now pass all tests again..
19:04:12 <crc> cool
19:05:54 <crc> I've not done much outside of some basic testing of the C and Python on windows. Mostly I use the F# implementation there
19:07:11 <__tthomas__> I think I am just going to clone C methods for C# version of file IO, you program in F#?
19:09:52 <crc> no, someone else did the F# implementation
19:11:42 <crc> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ashleyf/archive/2011/08/15/going-retro-and-loving-it.aspx
19:12:04 <__tthomas__> I don't mind C#, but like java extremely verbose, so pretty much have to have an IDE to program in it.. Every class has a ton of methods too.. I tried once just to see how bad it was to program c# in notepad or vim, I think it is impossible..
19:12:49 <CIA-98> retro: 03crc <crc@questor> * rcrc@questor-20120328021226-a8suoxr4m7137uzu 10rx/ (3 files in 3 dirs): merge with tthomas
19:16:50 <crc> I do all my coding under vim now
19:17:23 <crc> though I can see where an IDE may be useful with C# or java
19:19:17 <__tthomas__> code completion is a necessity in those environments..
19:19:43 <__tthomas__> I never used an ide for python and never missed ide features for C..
19:23:04 <CIA-98> retro: 03crc <crc@questor> * rcrc@questor-20120328022241-53br7ta7goyk2hha 10rx/examples/games/dndsim.rx: whitespace policing in dnd, make a few small cleanups
19:28:04 <CIA-98> retro: 03crc <crc@questor> * rcrc@questor-20120328022742-8esrmu5u9nvh7jdb 10rx/examples/games/dndsim.rx: use tri combinator instead of dup/swap in a function in dnd combat simulator
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