00:00:00 --- log: started retro/12.03.16
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03:45:29 <crc> Raystm2: yes
03:58:26 <crc> __tthomas__: thanks; I didn't remember committing that file
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03:58:48 <retro-commits> [retro-language] crcx pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/IM05bw
03:58:48 <retro-commits> [retro-language/master] rename d' to decimal' - crc
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04:34:17 <crc> __tthomas__: your implementation of words is the same length as two others I have:
04:34:20 <crc> : words 2cr last [ d->name puts space ] ^types'LIST each@ ;
04:34:23 <crc> : words 2cr last repeat @ 0; dup d->name puts space again ;
04:34:25 <crc> : words 2cr last @ [ dup d->name puts space @ dup ] while ;
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08:45:50 <__tthomas__> crc was just an experiment, then I realized that yours searched through several vocabularies.. I am going to kill my regAB.rx lib, was a cool experiment and I learned a lot from it, but I feel be better off making specific implementation without such generic names when needed.. 
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09:09:10 <__tthomas__1> is there a history command in IRC, or is that only some bots keep history and can recite it back on request?
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09:49:45 <crc> irc has no built-in history functionality; clients or bots offer it
09:51:02 <__tthomas__1> I wasn't 100% on that, thanks for clarification
09:51:38 <__tthomas__1> I have a word would like to add to char library..
09:51:59 <__tthomas__1> : visible? 31 126 within ;
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09:57:06 <retro-commits> [retro-language] crcx pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/MrSpdw
09:57:06 <retro-commits> [retro-language/master] add isVisible? to char' - crc
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09:57:33 <crc> done, though renamed to match other function naming in that vocabulary more closely
09:58:09 <__tthomas__1> cool, wasn't sure if visible or printable would be better wording.. since technically space is printable but not visible
09:58:55 <crc> I could add isPrintable? as well
10:01:57 <__tthomas__1> not sure if there would ever be a need for both, I just used it to print char if possible otherwise print _ in my dump library..
10:55:15 <__tthomas__1> cool, I got retro_windows.c to build
10:58:18 <__tthomas__1> and its fast 10000000 [ 0 dup drop drop ] times takes about 3 seconds
11:00:20 <__tthomas__1> python version is taking over a minute
11:33:12 <crc> that takes about 5 seconds on my linux box
11:33:19 <crc> 12 seconds under pypy
11:33:31 <crc> .8 under the assembly implementation
11:41:57 <__tthomas__1> cool.. it is a 70Kb executable which seems rather large..
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11:45:02 <__tthomas__1> Then again a fasm version of hello world is under 1K on windows.. and almost 50K compiled with cl.exe I wonder what is in the c version and I feel lied to by people claiming c compilers are almost as fast and optimized as assemblers..
11:47:35 * crc notes that it's a bad idea to run that code snippit under retro.php
11:49:04 <__tthomas__1> heh, I wonder how fast an rpy version translated with pypy would be..
11:49:11 <crc> I've almost always found assembly to be faster than C
11:49:25 <__tthomas__1> the executables are definitely smaller..
11:49:48 <__tthomas__1> I am still amazed, hello world, 50KB executable.. 
11:50:29 <__tthomas__1> I am almost scared to see what C++ would look like.. :)
11:50:35 <crc> depends on the library code dragged in
11:51:13 <__tthomas__1> but fasm uses the same library's.. it uses printf and getch just like code I compiled..
11:52:20 <crc> ok
11:52:51 <crc> when I was doing assembly, I used the kernel32.dll functions directly, not the C libraries
11:55:13 <__tthomas__1> oh, didn't know that was different.. I see what you mean.. So it isn't apples to apples, they both use kernel32.dll but c version statically compiles clibrary to do so versus just making calls to kernell32.dll.. 
11:56:49 <__tthomas__1> c++ is 128K
12:39:29 <crc> a hello,world image built with retro is 34K
12:40:05 <crc> but that's because the entire underlying image is a fixed thing we can't strip out
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14:36:26 <__tthomas__1> heh, yeah, and I am sure with a little dedication could be made much much smaller.. 
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14:38:53 <__tthomas__1> I was looking at a potential change to namespace {{ that could make image a bit smaller.. Involves creating a temporary dictionary in memory and the assumption that outside of the namespace you can't access that dictionary anyways.. so only words after reveal would be added to core dict and the rest could be discarded..
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15:51:10 <Mat2> hello
15:51:15 <__tthomas__1> hi
15:51:32 <Mat2> hey, tthomas
15:51:46 <__tthomas__1> how are you?
15:52:08 <Mat2> fine, vm hacking with a netbook :)
15:52:37 <__tthomas__1> heh, hating work since trying to make me use C++ features when I program in C++, I was using classes at least..
15:53:30 <Mat2> in my opinion c++ is a syntactical mess (so it's very popular I suggest)
15:54:12 <__tthomas__1> I don't see the point of base classes, virtual, override or abstract classes.. I would rather just write code using classes like functions that maintain state..
15:55:07 <Mat2> take a look at the io language
15:55:10 <__tthomas__1> I think they just like putting on their architecture hats and let me know how things are supposed to be done..
15:55:48 <__tthomas__1> I have, prototypes are nice, rebol is one of my favorite languages, too bad it is more or less dead..
15:56:40 <Mat2> hmm, ther exist a new, compiler based dialect named red so I think rebol must have some user base left
15:57:35 <Mat2> io by the way has a very active (yet small) community 
15:57:37 <__tthomas__1> it has plenty of fans/users.. just the company and guy behind it is too busy to work on new version or maintain the current.. Red shows promise but it still requires rebol for compiling
15:57:56 <Mat2> ok, that's bad
15:58:32 <__tthomas__1> I am still hopeful, I was looking at IO a lon long time ago, liked the syntax fairly well, was small but I had issues with getting it to work well on windows, seemed to have very little support on that platform..
15:59:05 <__tthomas__1> s/IO/io
15:59:39 <Mat2> oh, you can compile the sources on windows as I know it but need some glue code (or unix compatibly layer like mingw)
16:00:41 <__tthomas__1> yeah I had it working, but support for that platform was lacking, this was years ago..
16:02:56 <Raystm2> Greetings __tthomas__1 and Mat2 
16:03:12 <Mat2> hi Raystm2
16:03:24 <Raystm2> has crc made an appearance? need to ask him a question. 
16:03:43 <Mat2> do not know
16:03:49 <__tthomas__1> hey, raystm2
16:03:55 <Mat2> crc ?
16:04:02 <Raystm2> Charles.
16:04:04 <__tthomas__1> he was on earlier..
16:04:12 <Raystm2> Thank you.
16:04:41 <Raystm2> lol Friday. If he has a life, maybe he will be busy. :-)
16:05:27 <__tthomas__1> depends on his age I reckon, after got married and got into my 30's life having a life became a past memory.. :)
16:05:53 <Raystm2> I agree, whole heartly.  :)
16:06:02 <Mat2> same story as my one ;)
16:06:06 <Raystm2> But my kids are mostly moved out already. 
16:06:30 <Raystm2> His kids are just starting out.
16:06:41 <__tthomas__1> I have no children, just need something to do when watching tv, and don't really have a group of people we go out with often..
16:06:57 <__tthomas__1> Though I may go to silicon fig tommorrow at stanford..
16:07:06 <Raystm2> OH! cool.
16:07:33 <Mat2> would you inform us about some news ?
16:07:38 <Raystm2> Wish I could go. I'm in Denver. too far, no fig here.
16:07:41 <__tthomas__1> I went to forth day this year and got a free GA-144 which is in a bag somewhere..
16:07:50 <Raystm2> Neat!
16:08:09 <__tthomas__1> yeah it was cool, got to see chuck show off some stuff..
16:08:18 <Raystm2> I took the ArrayForth school tests last night, got a 92.
16:08:45 <Mat2> yeah, that's a cpu I want to get for hacking something useful
16:08:47 <__tthomas__1> Oh cool, what is that.. ? school tests I mean.. 
16:09:16 <__tthomas__1> I wish I was more confident in my soldering, don't want to mess up the chip..
16:09:40 <Raystm2> Oh, let me get the link for you. Bailey and Shattock are doing a training course with videos and reading material all on line....
16:09:42 <Mat2> but at current I plan to build my own hive
16:09:56 <__tthomas__1> propeller hive?
16:10:00 <Mat2> yes
16:10:25 <__tthomas__1> awesome, I have chameleon board from xgamestation, that board is such a deal.. I so want to get retro running on it..
16:10:26 <Raystm2> http://school.arrayforth.com/
16:10:57 * Raystm2 has to look up "hive"
16:11:14 <__tthomas__1> I got retro running on my Ben Nano note, partially why I want to write a block editor.. it has a tiny screen..
16:11:20 <Mat2> the hive cries for a retro inspired functional colorforth dialect *g*
16:12:01 <__tthomas__1> heh, it took me a long time to get why colorforth was cool, it definitely isn't because of the color, lots of clever things happening in the editor, very very cool design
16:12:32 <__tthomas__1> I didn't really get it till I read the AHA articles on Jeff Fox's page..
16:12:44 <Raystm2> I agree, I've been writing colorForth code for at least 10 years.
16:13:05 <Mat2> yes, that article had also an AHA effect for me
16:13:21 <Mat2> Raystm2: http://hive-project.de/
16:13:28 <Raystm2> grats! :)
16:15:18 <__tthomas__1> I really hope Green Arrays takes off, Chuck has had such bad luck with his chip designs.. I can easily see their new chip being used in place of FPGAs, I honestly think it is Forth that is hurting the popularity though, unfortunately..
16:17:35 <Raystm2> If Chuck had done like 'C'/Unix -- give away to schools, charge companies 20,000USD usage fee, we would be a FORTH world today. :)
16:17:58 <__tthomas__1> Heh, we almost did anyways with openfirmware..
16:17:58 <Raystm2> Hive is cool! this is in forth, too?
16:18:15 <__tthomas__1> I hope they get jupiter ace module working in newest propforth..
16:18:38 <Mat2> there is a native forth in working
16:18:46 <Mat2> for the hive
16:18:53 <__tthomas__1> yeah, propforth right?
16:19:17 <Mat2> no, some colorforth inspired design as I see it
16:19:33 <Mat2> but propforth can also run on the hive
16:19:51 <__tthomas__1> oh, I know propforth is available for hive, they had jupiter ace type environment for it, so could develop with keyboard and tv..
16:20:09 <Raystm2> very cool indeed.
16:20:40 <__tthomas__1> fignition is another cool board.. http://sites.google.com/site/libby8dev/fignition
16:20:47 <Mat2> an ace emulator would be an easy task
16:20:50 <Raystm2> gosh, I didn't know any of this was going on.
16:21:05 <__tthomas__1> yeah, there already is a z80 port that runs on a single cog
16:23:18 <Mat2> the hive has ~20 cores left if you utilize renegatix and administriva(?) space
16:24:23 <Mat2> why not create a modern ace version
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16:24:55 <Mat2> probably with retro
16:25:14 <__tthomas__1> I was playing with idea of trying to port eforth to ngaro bytecode..
16:26:15 <__tthomas__1> then I decided I should probably learn retro well first, then think about doing the hard complicated stuff, I tend to skip ahead..
16:26:55 <Mat2> as I see it, there exist a special eForth version based upon a MISC style vm in C so I bet it would be a trivial task to do
16:27:34 <Raystm2> AFK brb
16:27:56 <Mat2> but retro is far more advanced (closures, classes, combinators...)
16:28:00 <__tthomas__1> everything is easy once you know how to do it.. :)
16:28:21 <__tthomas__1> yeah, and you can implement all of retro's features on any forth as well, which is very cool..
16:28:23 <Mat2> right :)
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16:32:25 <Mat2> hmm, fignation is a bit too retro style for me, I mean an resolution of probably 160x160 pixel ? A VIC20 has ~180x200 in 8 from 16 colours !
16:34:13 <__tthomas__1> Heh.. http://www.xgamestation.com/browse_products.php?category=9 this is one I have that I really like
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16:35:01 <__tthomas__1> I also have a pretty awesome fpga from work that I would like to do something with.. 1800A-DSP Spartan3A, has vga and all kind of other cool features..
16:37:47 <Mat2> FPGas are a technology i'm very interested in
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16:38:26 <Mat2> the xgamesStation is a nice design by the way
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16:43:03 <Mat2> the fignation is similar to the A81 project (AVR based ZX81 clone)
16:43:51 <__tthomas__1> never seen that project, where is it?
16:44:39 <__tthomas__1> found it, but think it is in German
16:44:46 <Mat2> one moment please
16:44:52 <Mat2> right
16:45:59 <__tthomas__1> These people should just cheat and use a propeller for their IO boards..
16:46:21 <Mat2> that would be a good idea
16:47:01 <__tthomas__1> that is how the chameleon works, keyboard, mouse, vga, ntsc, audio is all done through propeller using SPI
16:47:17 <__tthomas__1> your programs run on the AVR 328
16:47:47 <Mat2> or a PIC
16:48:17 <__tthomas__1> you have access to both, so can use it as arduino, avr 328 or propeller dev board hence the name
16:49:34 <__tthomas__1> for pic would use this.. http://www.dontronics-shop.com/olimex-duinomite.html
16:51:22 <Mat2> I would create a board with only propeller chips ... lot of propeller's and SRAM (or FRAM)
16:51:58 <__tthomas__1> SPI RAM is nice.. Super cheap too..
16:53:54 <Mat2> looks interesting
16:55:40 <Mat2> it's far from midnight here, need some sleep
16:55:47 <Mat2> ciao
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18:16:08 <erider> hi all
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18:31:23 <crc> hi erider
18:31:30 <crc> hi Raystm2 
18:44:49 <Raystm2> crc hi :) had a question for you...
18:46:03 <Raystm2> about the java I/O: you are looking for words that go into the "port" word and extend the java functionality as seen in the more complete ports?
18:50:17 <crc> yes
18:50:38 <crc> specifically, port 4 for file i/o
18:50:50 <Raystm2> port 4, roger.
18:51:23 <Raystm2> read, write, and some sort of positioning scan.
18:51:35 <Raystm2> copy?
18:53:36 <crc> yup
18:56:16 <Raystm2> ok.
18:56:59 <Raystm2> ah, okay, i'm reading the 'c' implementation, and can see what is expected.
18:59:52 <Raystm2> I am still a couple 'tutorial-days' away from I/O. I do not expect any problems. The java version should just be a basic translation of what I see here in you 'c'.
19:05:58 <crc> sounds good
19:06:00 <Raystm2> netBeans complained about he endian structure not being necessary. 
19:07:02 <Raystm2> I suppose what I will do is submit a version with what I find out. For instance the first import java.* is also not necessary, I suppose because it is something always imported.
19:07:59 <Raystm2> and there is an enum type that should shorten maping of the VM-"ops" to what it looks like in c
19:08:33 <crc> the endian stuff is there since java is big endian, and the retro image is little endian
19:09:49 <crc> and I wasn't aware that java had an enum type
19:10:27 <crc> (its been far too many years since I used java for anything serious for me to remember how to use it now)
19:10:52 <Raystm2> I will be sure I check into the endian thing a little more before I do anything drastic. 
19:12:40 <Raystm2> java makes me appreciate forth. all of the code one has to write to cast a type... all of the necessary braces and parens. I'm spoiled.
19:14:27 <Raystm2> The only thing I can report about the java version is that in console everything is repeated in an unexpected way, an example speaks for me...
19:14:55 <Raystm2> ok 1 2 + putn 
19:15:05 <Raystm2> ok 2 + putn
19:15:10 <Raystm2> ok + putn
19:15:14 <Raystm2> ok putn
19:15:17 <Raystm2> 3
19:15:22 <Raystm2> sorry...
19:15:25 <Raystm2> putn 3
19:15:27 <Raystm2> ok
19:15:55 <crc> the console works best on systems that allow buffering and local echoing to be disabled
19:16:14 <Raystm2> FULL ACK
19:16:26 <crc> java's console support is (or was at the time) very weak
19:17:16 <Raystm2> I got that example wrong but your explaination fits very good.
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19:33:18 <retro-commits> [retro-language] crcx pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/9v4qag
19:33:18 <retro-commits> [retro-language/master] expand docblock for queries' - crc
19:33:18 <retro-commits> [retro-language/master] new vocabulary: queries' - crc
19:33:18 <retro-commits> [retro-language/master] add documentation for decimal' and queries' - crc
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19:43:17 <crc> at present, I'm focusing on libraries and giving considerations to how to handle expanding the vm-level console support
19:57:59 <Raystm2> I see.
19:58:20 <Raystm2> I'm sleepy and rolling over. :)
19:59:26 <crc> same here, goodnight
21:03:02 <Raystm2> gn. see you soonest.
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