00:00:00 --- log: started retro/10.09.11
05:53:00 <crcx> docl: looks good so far
05:54:39 <foucist> no_list dups it?
05:54:52 <foucist> also what's sz and fr
05:55:28 <foucist> z_tp eh?!
05:55:45 <crcx> foucist: it's just a prototype
05:55:48 <foucist> tp_fr_my_bng_holio
05:55:53 <foucist> yeah
05:56:40 <foucist> i'm just being a word naming police
06:07:36 <crcx> ok :)
06:28:16 <crcx> I cleaned it up a bit: http://gist.github.com/575177
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06:54:17 <crcx> hi docl 
07:50:48 <foucist> crcx: you made it worse lol
07:50:56 <foucist> camelcase is harder for me to type than underscores
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08:02:02 <crcx> foucist: how so? it's one less key to hit :)
09:53:17 <foucist> crcx: shift and - is consistent across the board
09:53:24 <foucist> easier to read as well
09:58:36 <crcx> readability is a matter of opinion :)
09:59:37 <crcx> the easiest workaround is to add make names case insensitive and ignore _'s... which is easy enough to do
10:00:11 <crcx> work day is done at last. a waste of 5 hours (very slow today)
10:01:38 <foucist> crcx: what do you mean make case insensitive and ignore _'s ?
10:01:55 <foucist> the _ adds the same thing that the capitalization adds, but does a better job of it anyways
10:02:06 <foucist> that is, separation
10:02:31 <foucist> _ is a far more efficient separator, you have to admit that
10:02:39 <foucist> it's much more consistent
10:02:45 <foucist> and much more noticeable
10:05:47 <foucist> more noticeable because of the _ spacing it gives
10:06:04 <foucist> more consistent because you're not dealing with reading different capitalized letters
10:06:18 <foucist> S vs C vs D vs U vs A etc
10:07:53 <foucist> crcx: my perspective about programming languages is very UX oriented because of my backgrounds in forth and ruby, one is notoriously write-only and the other is the total opposite :P
10:08:36 <foucist> matz is a genius, just like chuck moore
10:09:14 <foucist> except his genius revolved way more around how to make a programming language fun to read and write
10:09:40 <foucist> he took the best of perl, lisp, etc and came up with ruby
10:14:24 <foucist> i am not currently aware of any programming language that is as readable, as writeable, and as powerful (relative to the other qualities) as ruby
10:14:36 <foucist> i mean, it is the most humane programming language that i'm aware of currently
10:15:11 <foucist> it is incredibly terse and still readable & writeable, easy to understand and hack etc..  programmer velocity is pretty high w/ ruby
10:16:18 <foucist> imo, forth is powerful, low-level, fully extensible, and has some similarities to ruby anyways
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11:30:52 <foucist> crcx: http://gist.github.com/575421
11:30:55 <foucist> how's that?
11:31:11 <foucist> i'm not entirely comfortable with buffer.add_to
11:31:21 <foucist> but i think list.size is actaully a decent word name
11:31:33 <foucist> instead of something as awkward as size_of_list
11:32:32 <foucist> crcx: also i changed ifTrue to just if..  it makes sense that it would normally act like ifTrue..  you could also name it  if.true
11:32:42 <foucist> i guess using _ doesn't always work
11:33:04 <foucist> a period is good for those situations where you're trying to talk about hte first aspect
11:33:07 <foucist> i.e. list, buffer, if
11:33:39 <foucist> if_true, list_size, buffer_add_to would be a little incongruous
11:37:12 <foucist> crcx: if.true would be the default behavior of if right? 
11:37:28 <foucist> if.false == unless
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13:34:39 <crc> yes, the default behavior of a standard if is: if ...true... then
13:37:55 <crc> I suppose underscores can work ok, depending on font choice. Some fonts have very thin underscores, which makes the code harder to read quickly
13:41:07 <crc> regarding case sensitivity and ignoring underscores; I could have retro treat getLength and get_length the same, by ignoring case and underscores; but I'm not so sure that's a good idea
13:52:00 <foucist> crcx: yeah i'm not advocating that..  be better to just call it get_length from the get go and stop using weird fonts ;)
13:52:25 <foucist> _ shows up great in monospaced fonts anyways
13:52:30 <foucist> do you not use monospaced fonts?
13:52:50 <crc> I use monospaced fonts most of the time
13:55:06 <crc> the antialiasing settings may be having an impact on the visibility though
13:55:19 <foucist> are you using an IDE or something?
13:55:27 <foucist> where's your java influence coming from
13:55:39 <crc> what java influence?
13:56:32 <foucist> C# influence?
13:56:42 <foucist> where's the camelcase influence coming from
13:57:01 <foucist> and the dislike for _ :P
13:57:40 <crc> oberon and smalltalk
14:04:28 <crc> both use camelcase; smalltalk uses it with the lowercase first, uppercase in middle like I've been doing in retro lately
14:05:27 <yiyus> foucist: as a _ hater myself, for me it comes from reading bell labs code
14:05:31 <crc> underscores are more noticable with antialiasing turned off in the terminal
14:05:52 <yiyus> you won't find variables with underscores in the old unix or plan9 sources, and i really like how they look
14:35:09 <docl> well, what else is underscore supposed to be good for?
14:36:02 <docl> having the first letter be lowercase but sprinkling uppercase letters in there seems inconsistent to me.
14:36:46 <crc> docl: it's only inconsistent if you have CamelCase and camelCase words :)
14:37:21 <docl> camelCase drives me crazy. much prefer CamelCase :)
14:38:19 <crc> the camelCase comes mostly from my work on smalltalk on and off over the last couple of years
14:39:06 <docl> yeah if I actually had experience using it I probably wouldn't be complaining
14:39:40 <docl> but it seems out of place in forth when most of your words are little three to five letter symbols
14:40:58 <docl> I'd rather see something like strlen instead of getLength
14:41:09 <crc> : strlen getLength ;
14:41:17 <docl> :)
14:49:11 <crc> : alias: create dup @last !d->xt xt->d @d->class @last !d->class ;
14:49:32 <crc> err, wrong one
14:49:33 <crc> with quotes'
14:49:33 <crc> : alias d' dup @d->class [ @d->xt : , ` ; ] dip reclass ;
14:49:33 <crc> without
14:49:39 <crc> alias getLength strlen
15:04:51 <foucist> crc: what terminal program/font are you using?
15:05:05 <crc> Terminal.app; monaco 9pt
15:05:06 <foucist> i'm using osx Terminal.app w/ antialiasing and it looks fine i think
15:05:07 <foucist> hmm
15:05:40 <foucist> i'm using panic sans, it's a derivative of bit vera or some such
15:06:27 <crc> monaco looks pretty good with antialiasing off
15:07:41 <foucist> crc: try this http://www.foucist.com/files/Panic%20Sans.dfont
15:08:00 <foucist> monaco is pretty good though
15:08:15 <foucist> i don't recall any toruble with _ in monaco
15:09:19 <foucist> crc: i use 16pt btw, 110x34 for the terminal window
15:09:26 <foucist> on my 13" macbook monitor
15:10:05 <crc> I'm using 9pt, 115x35 on a 19" monitor
15:10:29 <crc> I can't open the Panic Sans.dfont
15:10:34 <foucist> hmm
15:10:37 <foucist> lemme check again
15:12:21 <foucist> crc: do you have Coda ?   it's in Coda.app/Contents/Resources/Panic Sans.dfont 
15:12:29 <crc> no coda
15:12:40 <foucist> i don't know why my copy wouldn't work for you does it show up as a font file for you?
15:13:03 <foucist> crc: try renaming the end of it to .ttf
15:13:07 <crc> I'm wondering if something isn't configured right... hold on
15:13:11 <foucist> or maybe just load it up in fontbook
15:13:18 <foucist> Font Book
15:14:35 <crc> got it
15:16:05 <crc> font forge stole the file association
15:21:57 <crc> docl: http://gist.github.com/575616 and retro'll convert all strings to lowercase before doing comparisons
15:34:20 <foucist> crc: do you like the panic sans font?
15:34:29 <crc> it looks nice
15:34:44 <foucist> designed for coders i reckon
15:34:52 <foucist> spacing of stuff is a little better than monaco
15:35:35 <foucist> yiyus: what did bell labs code look like? was _ abused in some way? :P
15:36:17 <foucist> crc: did you turn antialias back on
15:36:37 <crc> on for the tab with panic sans, off for the tabs with monaco
15:37:05 <foucist> crc: i recommend a higher pt too.. why not ? :P
15:37:08 <foucist> why strain the eyes too much ;)
15:37:19 <foucist> 11pt on a big monitor ftw ;)
15:37:32 <foucist> 11 or 12
15:42:30 <crc> 10pt
15:42:47 <crc> panic sans sucks with antialias off
15:48:12 <yiyus> foucist: not at all, they did not use it, they use really good name conventions
15:48:25 <yiyus> see http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/pikestyle.html
15:55:51 * docl is using Terminus font
15:56:04 <docl> yiyus: I agree, that looks like good style to me.
16:00:24 <docl> crc: I agree with the decision to use ' after the name of a chain to visually clarify what it is.
16:03:53 <crc> docl: thanks; it seemed like a good idea to me
16:20:39 <docl> Terminus is nice. I hadn't realized how much I missed it.
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18:16:18 <foucist> docl: i have terminus but panic sans looks better to me for some reason
18:16:22 <foucist> less blocky i guess
18:16:39 <docl> hmm. I can't get panic sans to work on putty.
18:17:25 <foucist> docl: in windows? it needs .ttf /
18:17:27 <foucist> ?
18:17:57 <foucist> foucist@macbook library/Fonts % file Panic\ Sans.dfont 
18:17:57 <foucist> Panic Sans.dfont: MS Windows icon resource
18:17:57 <foucist> foucist@macbook library/Fonts % file Terminus.ttf 
18:17:57 <foucist> Terminus.ttf: TrueType font data
18:30:59 <docl> I wonder if I can find a ttf version of it
18:31:44 <docl> oh, it's a clone of deja vu sans mono
18:32:12 <docl> hmm, not bad
20:10:26 <docl> http://gist.github.com/575798
20:10:43 <docl> playing around with the capitalizations
20:11:09 <docl> the accept word doesn't work though. not sure why.
20:13:22 <docl> ooh, loop needs a number
21:01:47 <crc> docl: don't do 0; in a [ ] loop 
21:02:24 <crc> docl: loop and loopi are built around for/next, they have indexes, etc tucked away on the address stack
21:03:38 <docl> ahh
21:15:52 <crc> I'll add notes on this to the documentation tomorrow
21:21:03 <docl> is there a non-counted loop for quotes?
21:28:43 <docl> http://gist.github.com/575798
21:29:18 <docl> working :)
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22:30:46 <docl> http://gist.github.com/575873
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23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/10.09.11