00:00:00 --- log: started retro/10.08.08
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07:32:04 <crc> docl: did my patch fix the problem with the chained vocabularies?
08:16:29 <docl> seems to be working now
08:21:05 <crc> good
08:24:17 <foucist> crc: i feel bad for all the code that has fallen by the wayside to the inexorable progress of retroforth!
08:24:30 <foucist> like the old editors and network code etc :P
08:24:53 <foucist> you are working on retroforth right? chained vocabs?
08:24:57 <crc> foucist: don't. since we started using version control, most of that can still be accessed if you want :)
08:25:00 <crc> foucist: yes
08:25:06 <foucist> cool
08:25:07 <foucist> using git?
08:25:15 <crc> no, fossil
08:25:25 <foucist> never heard of it
08:25:37 <crc> http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/doc/tip/www/index.wiki
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08:26:18 <crc> foucist: it's used to manage sqlite development
08:42:17 <docl> hmm, how long til we have an sqlite interface in retro?
08:43:32 <crc> docl: as soon as I have sufficient time to study the sqlite C interfaces and work out a decent mapping
08:46:57 <docl> foucist: the latest vocabulary and prefix stuff is really cool. have you had time to look at it?
08:47:07 <foucist> nope
08:47:29 <docl> you can do stuff like @foo instead of foo @
08:47:37 <foucist> i'm afraid the moment i start looking at it is the moment i start badgering crc to make it more ruby-like ;)
08:47:48 <docl> that might not be a bad thing :)
08:48:06 <crc> foucist: I'm sure there'll be some influences from ruby once I actually have time to work with ruby a bit
08:48:07 * docl has been having thoughts along those lines while studying ruby syntax
08:48:41 <docl> the whole foo.bar.baz kind of thing is one thing I expect to see soon
08:48:49 <docl> :)
08:48:50 <foucist> i think there's some similarities between forth and ruby, so some sort of hybrid could be done, some sort of ruby coded in forth, light-weight
08:48:56 <crc> my main problem currently is lack of time. I'm working 50-55 hours a week; off only on sundays and every third saturday, for the rest of this year
08:48:57 <foucist> docl: exactly
08:49:03 <foucist> chaining methods ftw
08:49:13 <foucist> and a true OO
08:49:21 <foucist> probably delegate/prototype based
08:49:25 <foucist> message passing
08:49:27 <foucist> usign the stack
08:49:37 <docl> darn, we need to get crc an income source so he doesn't have to work so many hours
08:50:07 <docl> foucist: absolutely
08:50:27 <foucist> crc: i can probably get you tons of freelance work etc, you'd be able to work 20 hours a week and make significantly more
08:51:14 <crc> docl: I could work less, but wouldn't have the money I need for my medical issues. insulin, doctor visits, etc get expensive, even with a decent medical plan through work
08:51:44 <foucist> crc: you have adult onset diabetes?
08:52:05 <docl> yeah we absolutely don't want your income level dropping. a dead or incapacitated crc is worse than an overworked one.
08:53:39 <crc> foucist: yes
08:53:43 <foucist> crc: http://www.jamesrobey.com/the-cure-for-adult-onset-diabetes/
08:53:56 <foucist> omega-3 essential fatty acid pills!
08:54:00 <foucist> fish oil/flax oil pills
08:54:20 <crc> I'm already using those
08:54:28 <foucist> how many grams a day?
08:54:36 <foucist> gotta get at least 1 gram a day every day for 90 days
08:54:47 <foucist> er
08:54:48 <foucist> 5 grams
08:55:21 <docl> what do those cost?
08:55:27 <foucist> a lot :(
08:55:40 <crc> docl: I pay about $40/month at present
08:55:44 <crc> foucist: 4 per day
08:56:11 <foucist> isn't 1 pill like 200 mg?
08:56:23 <crc> I have a prescription for 1g pills
08:56:28 <foucist> oh
08:56:32 <foucist> 1000mg
08:56:33 <foucist> hmm
08:56:37 <foucist> crc: have you noticed any diff
08:56:41 <foucist> how long have you been on it
08:56:46 <foucist> so you're getting 4g a day
08:56:49 <foucist> that's not too bad
08:56:50 <crc> I've been using them for about two years now
08:56:54 <foucist> are you taking them all at once
08:57:06 <crc> foucist: yes
08:57:22 <foucist> 4 pills in 1 swallow after a meal 
08:57:23 <foucist> hmm
08:57:27 <foucist> and you're not cured? wtf :P
08:57:45 <foucist> do you exercise?
08:57:50 <crc> yes
08:58:05 <foucist> btw did you fix the carpal tunnel
08:58:09 <crc> I walk a couple of miles every day, plus try to do other exercises later
08:58:17 <foucist> i'm getting some major CTS right now from the construction work i'm doing
08:58:22 <foucist> just from gripping things tightly
08:58:34 <foucist> not even repetitive type shit
08:58:56 <crc> foucist: I now use an ergonomic keyboard and trackball, which helps with the cts. I also take more breaks than I used to, and will stop if the pain starts growing
08:59:32 <foucist> pain or numbness?
09:00:18 <crc> pain. I have nerve damage from the cts that makes my hands partially numb.
09:01:38 <docl> my wife got injection therapy for a shoulder problem she had. supposed to be good for carpal tunnel.
09:01:55 <foucist> how's that?
09:02:00 <foucist> reduced inflamation?
09:02:06 <docl> it provokes inflammation in the specific location which triggers the body's healing mechanisms
09:04:00 * docl should try it on my own slight case of carpal tunnel and see if it helps
09:04:44 <foucist> generally speaking i dont have CTS except in extreme situations like now
09:05:14 <foucist> i once quit a data entry job once i got cts, and took a brek for a week and it went away completely
09:07:27 <docl> ah, it's called prolotherapy
09:07:39 <docl> aka regenerative injection technique
09:08:01 <docl> http://www.werejuvenate.com/regenerative-injection.php
09:09:35 <docl> our naturopath recommended it. she also had a chiropractor give some muscle relaxant injections which helped.
09:10:16 <docl> basically since this harnesses the body's inflammitory response, you can't take anti-inflammitory pain relievers like asprin, just the painkillers like tylenol
09:10:37 <foucist> hmm
09:10:49 <docl> not sure if omega-3s would count as anti-inflammitory
09:11:20 <foucist> it's not clear how that process would help carpal tunnel
09:11:24 <foucist> the other stuff is clear
09:11:28 <foucist> bones and joints
09:11:56 <foucist> cts is caused by pressure put on the nerve by the inflamed tendons in the first place
09:13:53 <docl> but the tendons are inflamed because they are damaged, right?
09:14:12 <docl> http://www.prolotherapy.com/prolodefine.htm
09:14:18 <foucist> dunno
09:16:17 <docl> hmm. I should bring it up with the naturopath at my next visit.
09:16:46 <docl> it does seem counterintuitive that the solution to a problem caused by inflammation would be to cause more of it.
09:19:24 <docl> I've been eating a lot of eggs lately. partly because they are easy to make, so I can substitute them for other more carb-based foods.
09:19:52 <docl> they are also cheap... like $1-$1.50 per dozen
09:19:56 <foucist> sure
09:20:27 <foucist> raw eggs are pretty ideal
09:20:30 <docl> plus I figure they are well optimized for building body cells. they are the raw material for baby chicks after all.
09:20:31 <foucist> microwaved eggs not so great
09:20:39 <docl> I just fry them usually
09:20:43 <foucist> protein ftw
09:20:58 <docl> well they have other good stuff besides protein
09:21:19 <docl> I suppose albumin is an allergen for some people. fortunately I'm not allergic.
09:21:57 <foucist> the body produces albumin in response to allergens
09:22:02 <foucist> er
09:22:23 <docl> hmm. I should research that more
09:23:43 <foucist> i'd be skeptical that the albumin from egg goes directly into teh blood when you eat that
09:24:02 <foucist> ppl used to think the cholesterol in egg affected the cholesterol levels in your blood
09:24:13 <foucist> or even that eating calcium gives you better bones
09:25:01 <foucist> people have a lousy habit of thinking that what you eat goes directly into your body and directly affects your shit in such a simplistic manner
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09:25:09 <docl> well there are evidently kids allergic to eggs just like some are allergic to wheat or milk.
09:25:13 <foucist> yeah
09:25:15 <foucist> true
09:25:19 <docl> doesn't make it bad for the rest of us
09:25:38 <docl> although I avoid milk. dairy is not the easiest thing to digest for me.
09:26:07 <foucist> pretty much everyone has a food sensitivity to diary, wheat, eggs, corn (as in corn syrup put in lots of processed foods), peanut butter, and something else i forget
09:26:09 <docl> with cheese vs. eggs, don't leave me wishing I hadn't eaten them.
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09:26:58 <foucist> food sensitivity arises from too much exposure, and especially from exposure to processed/fucked up versions of food
09:27:11 <foucist> eggs are rather sensitive to getting denatured etc when cooked i guess
09:27:19 <docl> hmm
09:27:21 <foucist> plus egg powder is used in a lot of processed foods
09:27:36 <docl> so if I cook my eggs I'm likely to end up allergic to them?
09:27:38 <docl> that sucks
09:27:42 <foucist> dunno man
09:27:45 <foucist> i eat eggs anyways
09:27:59 <foucist> i sorta try to cycle it though
09:28:09 <docl> well they've been a dietary staple for me lately
09:28:12 <foucist> like maybe lots of eggs for a month then stop for awhile and switch to a diff protein
09:28:15 <foucist> yeah
09:28:27 <docl> I should pick something hypoallergenic to switch to whenever I need a break from eggs
09:28:44 <foucist> if you can eat sardines go for that
09:28:51 <foucist> sardines are a lot better than tuna
09:28:58 <docl> hmm. fish is good. more expensive though
09:29:01 <foucist> smaller fish, so no mercury
09:29:07 <foucist> yeah but you can get canned sardines for cheap
09:29:07 <docl> interesting
09:29:14 <foucist> and it's a rich source of omega 3
09:29:26 <foucist> canned sardines for $1 or whatever
09:29:56 <docl> supposedly herring is one of the the most carbon-neutral protein sources, since they just eat plant life in the ocean
09:30:47 <docl> of course spirulina algae is probably even better
09:31:03 <docl> I should get me a tank and start growing that... how har can it be? :P
09:31:08 <foucist> heh
09:31:13 <foucist> true
09:31:17 <foucist> :P
09:31:37 <docl> plus I need to acquire the taste for long space voyages
09:31:49 <docl> :)
09:32:18 <docl> I've also thought about doing some sprouting. I should really get into that.
09:32:29 <docl> I have a sprouting kit
09:33:01 <foucist> cool
09:33:16 <docl> I wonder if there's benefit to sprouting in worm castings... I have some red wrigglers in the garage.
09:33:40 <docl> http://www.antenna.ch/en/malnutrition/grow-your-own-spirulina.html
09:33:45 <foucist> docl: you could always get good quality whey protein powder
09:33:54 <foucist> it's cheaper per gram of protein than any other protein source probably
09:34:33 <foucist> aside from eggs
09:34:57 <foucist> chocolaate whey protein powder with oatmeal for breakfast for example
09:35:20 <docl> I try to supplement my eggs with veggies, particularly cruciferous ones like broccoli
09:36:47 <docl> raw broccoli actually tastes pretty good to me
09:37:24 <docl> cabbage and cauliflower isn't quite as good, but I'be been eating them instead lately to provide variety
09:37:43 <docl> also my wife likes pizza so I'm not really staying strictly on this diet
09:38:20 <docl> but I have lost weight. I've also been trying to walk 15 minutes a day minimum
09:40:02 <foucist> i figured out a really awesome exercise program
09:40:26 <foucist> uber simple, can be done with just one exercise..  the deadlift
09:40:45 <foucist> deadlift is basically a compound exercise, hits every muscle, legs, back, abs, arms, shoulders
09:41:02 <foucist> and it's the one exercise that weight lifters lift the heaviest weights on
09:41:17 <foucist> heavy weights = BAM, huge hormonal response from the body
09:41:38 <foucist> and it's very safe, easy to drop the weight, don't need a spotter etc
09:41:56 <foucist> the routine itself is very simple, every 2 days
09:42:00 <foucist> 2 sets of 5 repetitions
09:42:05 <foucist> 5 minutes break between sets
09:42:10 <foucist> and that's all you need
09:42:20 <foucist> keep increasing the weight 10 lbs every workout
09:42:50 <foucist> until you hit your max (never go to failure, keep 1 rep in the tank)
09:43:01 <foucist> and then cycle, reduce the weight by 40-50 lbs and start over again
09:43:27 <foucist> i went from 135 lbs to 225 lbs deadlifting the last 2 months before starting this construction
09:43:30 <foucist> i feel pretty great
09:43:33 <foucist> no back troubles etc
09:47:44 <foucist> i added in a couple extra exercises though, did bench and pullups
09:48:02 <foucist> but really it's optional
09:48:16 <foucist> imagine that, takes 6 minutes to do this workout
09:48:20 <foucist> just the deadlift
09:48:25 <foucist> and do it every 2 days for the rest of your life
09:48:30 <foucist> and get stronger and stronger gradually
09:48:33 <foucist> get super super fit
09:48:45 <foucist> and its easy, you never go to failure/fatigue
09:48:57 <foucist> you finish the exercise feeling energized
09:49:12 <foucist> and it's easy to get a bar and weights for home
09:49:36 <foucist> i gotta write a book about this :P
09:52:29 <docl> w:)
09:52:49 <docl> hmm. I took PE in college for a while, did some lifting.
09:52:58 <docl> then I lost interest after the class was over.
09:53:24 <docl> the need for a spotter, going to the gym, etc. was a big factor
09:56:22 <docl> having a physical job is the most reliable way for me to get exercise :P
09:56:45 <sixforty> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bruce_Ellis
09:57:13 <sixforty> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.os.plan9.general       search page for "forth dude"
10:02:24 <docl> possible job for crc?
10:03:52 <sixforty> just putting it out there. In this environment, "stable" is a big plus.
10:04:52 <sixforty> and remember, the school year has either just begun or is beginning.
10:10:30 <sixforty> wow, late start. Sep. 7.
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17:40:20 <crc> docl: I'm looking into wrapping sqlite3 in a server app and interfacing via tcp/ip. Seems like this will be the easiest way to handle adding support to retro, plus will be useful for other programs too
17:42:37 <docl> nice!
17:43:08 <foucist> docl: yeah that's why i figured out an awesome workout that doesn't require a spotter, and is the best exercise anyways :P
17:43:52 <docl> cool. so all you do is a deadlift with some weights? how do you make sure there's no chance of back injury etc?
17:44:16 <foucist> docl: proper form, and the weight is never lifted to fatigue/failure
17:45:01 <foucist> sixforty: university usually starts in sept in north america
17:45:04 <foucist> first week of sept
17:46:12 <sixforty> foucist: right. But gradeschool has been starting earlier and earlier each year in most states.
17:47:33 <foucist> ah
17:47:50 <foucist> well yeah i remember highschool starting last week of august
17:48:25 <sixforty> right. was last of august, first of september for me, but grandkids have started already
17:56:22 <foucist> hmm
17:56:37 <foucist> i wonder if your grandkids are doing shorter summer vacation
17:56:42 <foucist> and longer winter vacation?
17:57:17 <foucist> people found that 1 month summer vacation and 1 month winter vacation was better memory/retention-wise than 2 month summer vacation
17:57:22 <foucist> and kids liked it better too 
17:57:23 <foucist> heh
17:57:31 <sixforty> more days off, and more days in school year
18:30:15 <crc> docl: I checked in a initial sqlite server; no retro-level bindings, but you can play with it using telnet
18:57:44 <crc> docl: and now a bit of test code
18:58:33 <crc> these should give enough to play with and see if this approach looks viable before I write a formal interface
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20:18:16 <foucist> crc: do any unit testing?  BDD?
20:18:46 <crc> foucist: sometimes
20:19:02 <crc> (unit testing; no bdd)
20:20:10 <foucist> probably isn't any good testing framework for forth i reckon
20:20:23 <crc> not yet
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22:40:48 <dennisj> Hi all! my first time here. I am trying to build the latest version of retro. I can't see how to build image/coreImage. Is that open source? if yes where would i find it.
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23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/10.08.08