00:00:00 --- log: started retro/09.12.23
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08:07:23 <erider> happy holidays 
08:10:27 <docl> same to you erider
08:10:59 <docl> how are you doing today?
08:34:11 <erider> I am good 
08:34:22 <erider> I haven't been on line in a well 
08:54:10 <docl> cool
08:55:17 <docl> do you use the git repos of retroforth? I've been having a lot of fun adding stuff to some of crc's projects lately.
08:58:14 <docl> git is pretty somple to use once you have it set up
09:00:44 * erider uses svn
09:21:38 <docl> I'm pretty impressed with git so far
09:21:50 <docl> not sure if there's a real difference
09:22:06 <docl> Linus Torvalds was the one who came up with git
09:23:11 <docl>  When I say I hate CVS with a passion, I have to also say that if there are any SVN (Subversion) users in the audience, you might want to leave. Because my hatred of CVS has meant that I see Subversion as being the most pointless project ever started. The slogan of Subversion for a while was "CVS done right", or something like that, and if you start with that kind of slogan, there's nowhere you can go. There is no way to do CVS right.”
09:23:34 <docl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(software)
09:26:58 * docl is watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8
09:53:36 <docl> the cool thing about git is how easy it is to make your own branch, so you use a more distributed model
09:54:42 <docl> actually I've never used branches, I've been using forks. I think those are technically different.
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10:13:18 <erider> docl:  so it looks like you are having fun with git 
10:17:59 <docl> yep :)
10:18:12 <docl> I like how easy it is to make and publish changes
10:21:14 <docl> http://learn.github.com/p/git-svn.html
10:25:45 <retro-commit> [docl/forthlets] e1c511: chorder indentation, cleanups
10:26:08 <docl> would you like to clone my repos erider?
10:27:01 <erider> nah I haven't played with retro in years 
10:27:28 <docl> come on, it's fun!
10:28:24 <erider> what is? retro? 
10:29:13 <docl> yeah
10:29:34 <docl> working with your own repo, especially
10:31:08 <erider> I have a lot of irons in the fire right now 
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10:33:41 <docl> ah, ok
10:33:44 <docl> hi crc
10:36:20 <crcx> hi docl 
10:36:26 <crcx> what's new?
10:36:56 <docl> I've been working on my chorder design
10:37:18 <docl> I seem to have broken it with my last commit though
10:38:04 <crcx> I haven't looked at that yet :(
10:38:27 <docl> actually I caught one bug but there seems to be another
10:44:47 <retro-commit> [docl/forthlets] a3af94: chorder, fix bug
10:52:45 <retro-commit> [docl/forthlets] 2f69f2: fix bug
10:52:47 <docl> ok, the issue was I replaced ++ with +1 when I should have used 1+
10:53:17 <crcx> an easy mistake to make ;)
10:53:38 <docl> the perils of postfix... :)
11:07:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/retro10] 9718d5: use @+ in block viewer
11:07:49 <erider> hi crc
11:07:55 <erider> whats new 
11:12:19 <crcx> working on libraries and small apps in retro
11:12:31 <crcx> and preparing for the year-end inventory here at work
11:37:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/retro10] dcaaba: "eval" no longer displays input
11:50:56 <erider> crcx: what happen to toka 
11:56:42 <crcx> I still work on it, but slowly
11:57:06 <crcx> I've been merging in a subset of the ngaro vm, to help generate more efficient code
12:03:03 <erider> I see 
12:03:23 <erider> crc are you still using JS 
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12:15:55 <crcx> yes
12:37:12 <crcx> erider: I've actually advanced my js usage enough to support canvas, and saving of the image
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12:44:26 <erider> crc: yeah I haven't had the chance to get up on js yet 
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14:42:30 <docl> howdy virl
14:43:05 <virl> hi
17:04:45 <retro-commit> [docl/forthlets] 568e8e: chorder rewrites
17:28:07 <crc> erider: js is great, especially with some of the modern updates
17:32:14 <erider> crc: yeah I wish I could get into 
17:32:20 <crc> docl: should the first rem be dropped in favor of the second?
17:32:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/forthlets] f3fd76: new chorder, cleaner design.
17:33:10 <erider> what is forthlets 
17:33:28 <crc> a collection of small programs written in retro
17:33:40 <crc> http://github.com/crcx/forthlets
17:35:35 <erider> i see
17:35:49 <erider> hey is it the retro that you built in js 
17:36:18 <docl> yeah, I think it should.
17:36:45 <crc> erider: there are a couple of examples specifically for the js version
17:37:29 <erider> crc: so forthlets are not totally retro forth in the browser 
17:37:51 <crc> forthlets = small applications for retro, some are console/browser, some are browser-only
17:38:21 <erider> I see 
17:38:27 <crc> (until I finish the canvas support in the sdl-backed ngaro; then the browser stuff will be usable on the desktop)
17:38:45 <retro-commit> [docl/forthlets] 35365a: chorder fixes, backspace, mappable to key
17:38:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/forthlets] 336b32: remove prototype version of rem
17:38:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/forthlets] 9189eb: rename rem2
17:39:21 <erider> crc: does js have access to raw sockets via the browser? 
17:39:24 <crc> no
17:39:31 <crc> there's not socket support in javascript
17:40:05 <erider> so all stuff is done in a local context 
17:40:20 <erider> nothing can be done remotely 
17:40:28 <crc> nope
17:40:36 <erider> I see 
17:40:55 <crc> that's a conscious limit of javascript to prevent cross-domain attacks
17:40:56 <erider> but you do have a deeper control over your browser 
17:42:01 <crc> I've done implementations that support injecting new javascript into the page and executing it
17:42:13 <crc> tricky to do safely, but it is possible
17:42:23 <erider> there have to be some support? chatzilla can access the outside world and I think most firefox plugins are written in js 
17:42:23 <crc> docl: done
17:42:53 <erider> s/have/has 
17:42:55 <crc> firefox has special extensions as part of xul to allow for things like that
17:43:02 <crc> much like adobe air
17:43:27 <erider> yeah but adobe is controlled with js 
17:44:12 <erider> then I guess the best playground will be firefox 
17:45:11 <erider> so I guess if I get the time to play with js, then firefox extensions will be a good starting ground 
17:45:28 <erider> "starting place" 
17:46:56 * crc no longer uses firefox. webkit-based browsers only :)
17:50:24 <erider> is that like chrome? 
17:50:40 <crc> chrome, safari, stainless
17:50:53 <retro-commit> [crcx/retro10] db37ca: add "ahead", stack comment for "immediate"
17:51:14 <crc> BOLT (blackberry)
17:51:53 <erider> safari?
17:52:01 <crc> apple's browser
17:52:21 <erider> what is the tradeoff 
17:52:45 <crc> I don't get to use firefox extensions
17:53:06 <crc> but I find the webkit based browsers to be tighter on memory use and less buggy than firefox
17:55:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/forthlets] 35365a: chorder fixes, backspace, mappable to key
17:56:51 <erider> have you tried google chrome 
17:57:02 <crc> yes
17:57:22 <crc> it's my main browser currently
17:57:32 * crc did an extension to add retro to it: https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/keaffkalpoinaioccbedhlmgcpchphpg
18:03:53 <retro-commit> [crcx/retro10] be86eb: fix bug in sym+ causing values to be left on the s...
18:04:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/retro10] fe391b: factor out some capability stuff in core
18:05:32 <erider> crc: did you have to use the developer version of chrome 
18:05:43 <crc> yes, on the mac
18:05:49 <crc> on windows, use the chrome4 beta
18:14:44 <erider> crc: interesting 
18:15:13 <erider> so you are scripting extensions in chrome 
18:20:48 <crc> just retro, a prolog interpreter, and a logo interpreter
18:21:07 <crc> (prolog + logo were not written by me, just repackaged as extensions by me)
18:53:31 <erider> crc: so json+js is the needed flavor 
18:55:34 <erider> crc: does the extension install locally 
18:55:43 <crc> yes
18:56:05 <crc> but it can't save images due to a bug in chrome's handling of data uri's :(
18:57:14 <erider> crc: do you know where 
18:57:29 <crc> no, I've not looked at the chrome source
18:58:26 <erider> ok 
19:02:49 <erider> crc: nah it doesn't install locally as far as I can see 
19:03:03 <crc> it should
19:03:48 <erider> its not in the folder 
19:08:27 <crc> on my mac the extensions are in ~/Library/Application Support/Chromium/Default/Extensions
19:09:06 <erider> yeah I looked in my extension directory and I didn't find anything 
19:11:02 * crc can't make sense of the chrome code - its all C++ :(
19:13:20 <erider> yeah 
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19:13:52 <erider> firefox is a little easier because most of the components are in js 
19:15:13 <erider> crc: I found your code 
19:15:34 <crc> there's not much work to make chrome extensions
19:18:20 <erider> yeah I am seeing that not like firefox :( 
19:19:21 <erider> there is a lot of work the goes into firefox extension writing hmm google has done it again  
19:20:03 <erider> they will bring firefox to their knees once chrome catches on 
19:20:29 <erider> and people see how easy it is to write plugins 
19:21:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/retro10] ae4ce1: use @+ and !+ in "copy" and "fill"; both are now o...
19:21:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/retro10] a746ca: slight reorg in core
19:21:54 <erider> hmm this may give me the intro I wanted into js 
19:22:22 <erider> crc: btw retro is pretty fast in chrome 
19:22:25 <crc> docl: the use of @+ and !+ make copy and fill much cleaner and smaller :)
19:22:41 <crc> erider: yup. it's a lot faster than the early versions :)
19:23:08 <erider> crc: have you found a noscript extension for chrome 
19:23:10 <crc> erider: but metacompiling the full image in a browser takes about an hour :(
19:23:12 <crc> erider: not yet
19:23:23 <crc> erider: there's one bug preventing that at present
19:23:58 <crc> erider: extensions can't currently process code until after chrome has begun the render process; once this is fixed, noscript will be easy
19:23:58 <erider> I wonder 
19:24:41 <erider> crc: have you extended chrome a lot 
19:24:45 <crc> no
19:24:58 <crc> I just ported retro and a couple other languages to play with
19:25:00 <erider> I wonder where all the buttons will render to 
19:25:47 <erider> crc: ruby interpreter or python would be nice 
19:26:59 <crc> those two would need server-side support, which I can't handle at present
19:27:33 <erider> yeah but it would be nice 
19:27:42 <crc> (my server load is already significant enough with the other things [ent, askpeek, paki, and various web servers] running on it)
19:27:46 <crc> I agree
19:28:08 <crc> once I can work out getting a more capable server, I'll be pushing more into web development
19:28:17 <erider> I wonder have far it can be extended 
19:31:54 <erider> crc: how many extensions do you have loaded 
19:32:35 <crc> 4
19:32:56 <crc> adsweep, irc to mibbit, retro, and tab menu
19:36:57 <erider> how many can you place before it starts to wrap 
19:37:15 <crc> I don't know
19:37:29 <crc> I've not had more than 8 loaded at once
19:37:43 <crc> and not all of them have buttons: some run in the background, like adsweep
19:40:20 <erider> i am now interested in chrome 
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19:43:13 <erider> crc: chrome is still young 
19:54:15 <crc> yes it is
19:54:22 <crc> but it's maturing quickly
19:58:44 <erider> crc: what are the canvas going to allow you to do 
19:58:52 <crc> draw :)
19:59:05 <crc> http://retroforth.org/demos/
19:59:44 <erider> Oh :) 
20:00:59 <erider> I haven't seen a useful extension yet 
20:01:27 <erider> a lot of repeats 
20:01:36 <crc> I use the vertical tab menu a lot
20:02:07 <crc> since it's easier than dealing with the tiny tabs (I often have 30+ tabs open, they're too small to be usable at that point)
20:02:36 <erider> mibbit looks interesting 
20:03:15 <crc> I used to use mibbit a lot, but don't now that freenode refuses mibbit connections :(
20:04:00 <erider> ah its a proxy 
20:05:11 <crc> yup
20:14:43 <erider> hmm chrome just crashed 
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20:33:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/retro10] 575fd8: more stack comments; improvements to "eval"
20:33:45 <retro-commit> [docl/forthlets] 336b32: remove prototype version of rem
20:34:01 * crc is going to revisit his html generation code soon; the improvements to the language should make things cleaner (I hope...)
20:35:45 <retro-commit> [docl/forthlets] 01e653: rem with chording input
20:40:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/www] 2b5b6e: update to use latest image
20:41:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/forthlets] 7b2e0e: Merge branch 'master' of git://github.com/crcx/for...
20:48:44 <retro-commit> [crcx/www] e03c6e: start using new words
21:02:45 <retro-commit> [crcx/www] d39b08: condense, refactor
21:07:46 <retro-commit> [crcx/www] e36809: remove special form [a
21:12:54 <docl> how do I run rxweb?
21:13:08 <crc> 1) make
21:13:28 <crc> 2) perl www-server
21:13:51 <crc> 3) visit http://localhost:9812
21:14:11 <crc> the www-server.pl wants a copy of the "retro" binary in the www directory
21:15:16 <docl> sh, that was what I was missing
21:15:46 <docl> wow, that's so cool
21:15:46 <retro-commit> [crcx/www] 7aae2a: update README
21:16:30 * crc is developing this primarily for use with retroforth.org and my personal site
21:20:56 * crc has to go to bed; work in 4.5 hours :( -- but it's a shorter day (thankfully; since all next week is going to be brutal with inventory after work)
21:22:00 <docl> darn
21:22:25 <docl> good luck with that
21:23:32 <crc> thanks. I won't be on much next week (mon-weds, 7am-10pm we'll be doing inventory.)
21:24:19 <crc> I should be on a good bit tomorrow evening until monday though
21:27:09 <crc> goodnight
21:33:58 <docl> goodnight
23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/09.12.23