00:00:00 --- log: started retro/09.05.31
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06:28:55 <GitHub102> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-ca7d3cb
06:28:55 <GitHub102> all words in table with stack comments for data stack
06:28:55 <GitHub102> http://bit.ly/rOYec
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07:16:31 <GitHub83> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-f6aa943
07:16:31 <GitHub83> Removed old WORDS list
07:16:31 <GitHub83> http://bit.ly/lItu7
07:16:31 <GitHub83> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-8c6b44f
07:16:33 <GitHub83> start working on css to format the output
07:16:35 <GitHub83> http://bit.ly/g01fo
07:16:37 <GitHub83> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-a887844
07:16:39 <GitHub83> nicer styling of html output; sections declared
07:16:41 <GitHub83> http://bit.ly/lNVc0
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07:36:55 <GitHub14> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-9765435
07:36:55 <GitHub14> added descriptions for inline words
07:36:55 <GitHub14> http://bit.ly/Ya9Ci
07:36:56 <GitHub14> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-5e43377
07:36:58 <GitHub14> added notes on data class words
07:37:00 <GitHub14> http://bit.ly/NFOWZ
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08:40:43 <GitHub110> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-ca0ce7c
08:40:43 <GitHub110> more words have descriptions now
08:40:43 <GitHub110> http://bit.ly/65JgE
08:40:44 <GitHub110> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-9efd8a3
08:40:46 <GitHub110> all words have descriptions (yay!)
08:40:48 <GitHub110> http://bit.ly/d2t9u
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09:03:39 <GitHub81> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-bbbe744
09:03:39 <GitHub81> mark code blocks as such
09:03:39 <GitHub81> http://bit.ly/6Z6s6
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09:06:53 <GitHub117> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-95be7cd
09:06:53 <GitHub117> merged in PLATFORMS; new introduction
09:06:53 <GitHub117> http://bit.ly/bhkFu
09:06:54 <GitHub117> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-5787c35
09:06:56 <GitHub117> make the text narrower
09:06:58 <GitHub117> http://bit.ly/amm1I
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09:14:54 <GitHub46> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-e994398
09:14:54 <GitHub46> added section on starting Retro
09:14:54 <GitHub46> http://bit.ly/17RcfO
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09:27:56 <GitHub185> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-2efac3c
09:27:56 <GitHub185> more introductory stuff
09:27:56 <GitHub185> http://bit.ly/GLk1m
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09:51:52 <GitHub171> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-80ecf30
09:51:52 <GitHub171> Concepts now Implementation; cleanups and minor expansions
09:51:52 <GitHub171> http://bit.ly/RuJr5
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09:52:16 <opless> hey crc
09:52:24 <crc> hi opless 
09:52:45 <opless> <3 the forth vm
09:52:53 <crc> thanks
09:53:18 <opless> I was half way writing my own until my research stumbled upon yours
09:54:05 <opless> I've been hacking away at it, making it work with stdio
09:54:39 <crc> the development snapshots have a devices layer that doesn't require curses
09:54:51 <opless> really? darn :)
09:55:27 <crc> it does need a posix-like OS (uses ioctl()), but other than that, it compiles on any unix-like platform I've tried it on
09:55:44 <opless> one feature you might want to apply is removing the requirement for the vm global variable and making it a pointer to a vm structure
09:55:57 <crc> that is planned
09:56:22 <opless> I've done it, but I've hacked the source a bit much to support a patch
09:57:00 <crc> :(
09:57:22 <opless> I don't mind sending you my source though :)
09:57:28 <crc> please do :)
09:57:32 <opless> email?
09:57:36 <crc> crc@retroforth.org
09:59:01 <opless> I do like the idea of having the vm running in JS and java too :)
09:59:56 <crc> I'm hoping to do more implementations soon
10:00:29 <opless> C# would be a quick win
10:01:21 <opless> I'm half tempted to do that myself, but I'm trying to figure out how to adapt this to a mad genetic programming idea I have
10:01:55 <crc>  .NET is one of my target platforms
10:02:20 <opless> :)
10:03:11 <opless> it looks like you had a x86-based forth first, and retroforth 10 is a bit of a step backwards for features but a step forward for portability?
10:04:31 <crc> the only missing feature is the lack of syscall/ffi
10:05:27 <crc> and that'll come in the not too distant future for at least Linux, BSD and OS X through one of my other projects
10:05:35 <opless> marshalling a CELL == int32 to cstrings via an out/wait/in implementation might be a little tedious
10:06:03 <crc> the other project has some extended instructions to help with that
10:06:20 <opless> oh? do tell :)
10:07:01 <crc> there are instructions to cast to/from cstrings
10:07:40 * opless was hinting at you telling him about "the other project" :)
10:08:19 * crc is working on an alternative userland written in forth, running on an extended version of the ngaro vm
10:08:54 <opless> oh is this a variation of your "bare metal" forth?
10:09:10 <crc> yes, but it'll run over a more traditional kernel 
10:09:17 * opless nods
10:09:35 <crc> it could run alongside a standard OS, or in place of it
10:09:49 <crc> but I'll get to leverage drivers, etc that I could never hope to complete on my own
10:10:05 <crc> (which is the main reason I dropped the bare metal approach)
10:10:07 <opless> absolutely
10:10:34 <opless> especially if you get something going over, say, netbsd
10:10:48 * crc loves netbsd
10:11:07 <opless> which has lots of driver support and none of the gpl nonsense of linux
10:11:27 <opless> s/driver/platform and driver/
10:11:59 <crc> yup
10:12:19 <opless> I did briefly toy with the idea of mono running on netbsd and a mono-based userland
10:12:49 <opless> then I realised I had more pressing issues ... like feeding myself :)
10:13:02 * opless chuckles
10:13:17 <crc> I code only in my spare time
10:13:40 <opless> I code for a living
10:14:49 <opless> which often leaves me too drained to pursue my other projects
10:15:02 <opless> did my email arrive?
10:17:37 <crc> yes
10:18:35 <opless> goodo
10:19:50 * crc finally has the new documentation online: http://retroforth.org/RetroLanguage.html
10:19:54 <opless> my modifications would probably make retroforth easier to implement as a library :)
10:20:10 <crc> I'll be studying the code tomorrow :)
10:21:55 <opless> my dev_getch() translates the most common whitespace to space, incl tab and CR :)
10:22:23 <crc> I do that using (remap-keys)
10:22:30 <opless> oooh
10:22:49 <crc> that way it can be turned off if you actually want to catch tab or cr
10:23:12 <crc> (e.g., the block editor parses for cr in some words)
10:27:44 <opless> yeah my application doesn't require them though :)
10:29:43 <crc> ok
10:30:30 <crc> btw, in recent development snapshots the javascript vm has some hidden ports that allow calling javascript from retro
10:36:58 <opless> cool :)
10:37:12 <opless> I'm just working with 10.0 at the moment
10:38:17 <opless> the new doc page looks good
10:39:31 <opless> you might want to alternate background colours on each definition subtly to aid reading
10:40:20 <crc> I'm looking for a way to do that
10:40:36 <opless> CSS :)
10:41:17 <opless> what's your day job crc, I don't want to sound patronising :)
10:41:42 <crc> I purchase and maintain inventory for an electrical wholesaler
10:42:23 * opless is all too aware that the 'tone' of text-based communication can be open to interpretation
10:42:40 <opless> ooh
10:43:02 <opless> are your an electronics geek as well? :)
10:43:20 <crc> yes
10:43:23 * opless wonders where that extra R came from
10:44:10 <opless> what's the difference between retro and retro-fast ?
10:44:22 <opless> I notice the vm has a few more instructions
10:44:40 <opless> (and that there's a lot of gotos)
10:44:51 <crc> the fast vm uses a variety of tricks to get more performance out of the vm
10:44:59 <crc> and has an extended instruction set
10:45:34 <crc> (I seldom use it, but it does give a measurable performance boost if you need that)
10:47:25 * opless nods
10:48:56 <opless> ever consider ngaro in a FPGA? :)
10:50:56 <crc> yes
10:51:05 <crc> I'd try it if I had the budget
10:51:39 <opless> mmm, glad my mad ideas are shared :)
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10:54:14 <GitHub186> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-070f33d
10:54:14 <GitHub186> and the other tables too
10:54:14 <GitHub186> http://bit.ly/137wYV
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10:56:14 <GitHub13> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-f3be61f
10:56:14 <GitHub13> some metadata
10:56:14 <GitHub13> http://bit.ly/ilyxH
10:56:15 <GitHub13> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-07d1c3d
10:56:17 <GitHub13> highlight every other row in the wordlist table
10:56:19 <GitHub13> http://bit.ly/jOWsN
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10:58:58 <opless> :) that looks a bit better, though I think if you had ... 1+ .inline x-y "increment x by 1" one colour, and "1- .inline x-y "decrement x by 1" in another it'd look superb
10:59:30 * opless is afraid he has been working with UI people for longer than he ought to
10:59:41 <crc> that's harder; I'm not sure how to do that with the tools I'm using
11:00:12 <opless> I'm afraid I stay away from python :)
11:00:30 <opless> ideological issues :)
11:02:40 <opless> we've come a long way since Cobol and RPG, using white space as syntax has always horrified me :)
11:03:27 <crc> I don't code in python, but I do like restructuredtext
11:03:49 * crc is sure he'll find a way to get the highlighting better
11:03:58 <crc> but it's at least a little more readable now
11:04:11 <opless> yes indeed it gives your eyes something to follow
11:04:59 * opless gropes around for something to eat
11:13:09 <opless> and clonewars :D
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12:36:18 <GitHub195> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-01f76dd
12:36:18 <GitHub195> started adding docs on extend.retro
12:36:18 <GitHub195> http://bit.ly/eR3Dn
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12:51:09 <GitHub100> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-bb2a1d7
12:51:09 <GitHub100> descriptions + stack comments for extend.retro
12:51:09 <GitHub100> http://bit.ly/QNzBk
12:51:10 <GitHub100> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-9620397
12:51:12 <GitHub100> merged in EDITOR docs
12:51:14 <GitHub100> http://bit.ly/144S5l
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13:24:10 <opless> crc is there an impletation of FORGET available?
14:28:33 <crc> nope
14:30:32 <crc> I could write one though
14:31:55 <crc> : forget ( "- ) ' drop which @ dup heap ! @ last ! ;
14:31:57 <crc> that should work
14:32:06 <opless> it would be useful to clear out words one would rather no have, rather than overriding existing ones
14:32:30 <opless> otherwise you end up with a memory leak :)
14:32:34 <crc> downside: this removes all words defined after the forgotton word
14:32:56 <opless> that's required behaviour afaicr
14:33:10 <crc> ok, then this works :)
14:33:25 * crc will add it to the optional extensions package
14:33:38 <opless> should be in core tbh
14:34:08 <opless> it's a pretty fundamental feature of forth as I recall
14:35:10 <crc> I believe most Forths have replaced it with marker
14:35:28 <opless> 'marker' ?
14:35:37 <crc> marker foo
14:35:42 <crc> ... more code ...
14:35:43 <crc> foo
14:35:56 <crc> then foo and all stuff following is erased
14:36:52 <opless> thats equivalent of ... : foo forget foo; ..... blah .... foo though ? :)
14:37:50 <opless> do you have the marker syntax ?
14:37:53 <crc> in ANS Forths, a marker tends to point to a structure containing enough data to allow the system to roll back the state. (Many ANS Forths have multiple memory areas, etc that make a simple 'forget' harder to implement)
14:37:59 <crc> nope
14:38:29 * opless suggests we should have one/other/both :)
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14:38:44 <GitHub50> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-e749af5
14:38:44 <GitHub50> added forget to extend.retro
14:38:44 <GitHub50> http://bit.ly/WPUU5
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14:38:46 <opless> it'd help the GP stuff I'm doing a lot
14:38:50 <crc> forget is now in the extend.retro in the bin directory
14:38:59 <opless> :D
14:39:09 <opless> you're a star crc :)
14:39:29 <crc> not in the default image, but trivial to load into an image :)
14:40:12 <crc> (this goes along with the scope words, extra conditionals, etc; so it'll be a nice addition)
14:45:25 <opless> forget will be cool, cos then I won't have to reinitialise the vm each time I load a new program
14:47:18 <opless> however generating a new program (or really a new forth word) programatically looks difficult in forth. but I've not played with forth for years, so I'll need to study it
14:48:31 <opless> I'm looking at the comms side of my project now I'm happy with the vm
14:52:13 <crc> I'm just trying to make sure things are ready for the 10.1 release 
15:12:46 <opless> :D
15:14:02 <crc> the remaining stuff is mostly trivial cleanups and minor tests
15:14:57 <opless> I guess the stuff I suggested would end up in 10.2?
15:15:13 <crc> forget is in 10.1
15:15:25 <crc> the vm updates will be in 10.2 probably
15:15:28 <opless> the email I sent I mean :)
15:15:40 <crc> the dev snapshots will have them sooner
15:16:13 <crc> (10.1 will hopefully be released sometime tomorrow)
15:16:33 <opless> cool :)
15:17:10 <opless> I'll look at doing a port of the java code to C# after I've finished poking at this comms stuff
15:19:05 <crc> I'll look forward to seeing it if you manage to find time to do it :)
15:21:39 <opless> That sounds like a challenge to me
15:25:10 <crc> heh; I'll eventually find time to work on it
15:25:22 * crc has delayed 10.1 for a long period due to lack of time
15:46:23 <opless> nearly there
15:50:19 <opless> wooohoo we have forth booted, but io is dodgy :)
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15:54:03 <opless> woot
15:57:10 <opless> all done
16:01:01 <opless> crc want me to send you this code?
16:02:32 * opless sends anyway :)
16:04:09 <opless> ah 7pm ... it's midnight here
16:10:19 <crc> midnight is the latest I stay up
16:14:43 <opless> indeed
16:14:58 <opless> I'm finding myself hungry though
16:16:15 * opless remote desktops to test retroforth.net
16:17:40 <opless> urgh, doesn't work as well as I'd expect ... oh wait that was the mcs ver
16:17:45 * opless recompiles
16:18:42 * crc is downloading mono for os x
16:19:39 <opless> mines a crusty 2.2 from january
16:20:44 <opless> ironically it works with gmcs+mono nicely, less nice with mcs+mono and windows .net
16:21:27 <opless> but it's a start
16:22:21 <crc> I'm looking forward to trying it
16:23:10 <opless> I'm sure you'll not be disappointed :)
16:24:17 <opless> it's a straight port of the java code, with enums rather than static final ints, and console io, nothing fancy like saving and loading etc
16:51:41 <crc> 30% downloaded. I'm having a lot of packet loss today :(
16:52:08 <opless> good old comcast eh? :)
16:53:24 <crc> wifi, borrowed from a nearby open network
16:53:54 <opless> no net where you are then? (other than "borrowed" ?)
16:55:11 <crc> nope
16:55:20 <crc> not at present anyway (money is tight)
16:55:26 * opless understands
16:56:10 <opless> lack of money is character building :)
16:56:30 <opless> and you can only say that when you've really been in the crapper and come out of it
16:57:33 * opless is sure everything will be alright in the finance side soon
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17:08:51 <crc> another month or two hopefully
17:26:19 <opless> :)
17:28:02 <crc> only 40mb more to go...
17:30:21 <opless> heh, time for me to hit the sack
17:30:54 <opless> I'll peek at irc before going to work in 7 hours or so :)
17:31:48 <crc> ok, have a good night
17:35:47 <opless> night :)
18:31:23 <crc> the c# code works :)
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18:44:52 <GitHub144> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-3091351
18:44:52 <GitHub144> added initial c# version from Simon Waite -- we run on .NET now!
18:44:52 <GitHub144> http://bit.ly/iOaGC
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19:05:02 <GitHub181> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-e80e915
19:05:02 <GitHub181> add Java and .NET to platforms list
19:05:02 <GitHub181> http://bit.ly/440bx
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19:09:42 <GitHub78> retro10: 3Charles Childers 07master0 SHA1-709cbcc
19:09:42 <GitHub78> start documenting building java and .net versions
19:09:42 <GitHub78> http://bit.ly/97KcY
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19:10:46 <crc> time for me to go to bed... goodnight world!
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23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/09.05.31