00:00:00 --- log: started retro/08.11.11
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05:56:52 <Mat2> hello everybody
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07:31:35 <lukeparrish> hello Mat2
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09:20:28 <crc> http://retroforth.org/R10/ (preview of work-in-progress site update that will go live with 10.0 stable release)
09:20:39 <crc> feedback would be appreciated
09:27:51 <lukeparrish> cool
09:28:09 * lukeparrish is on in the middle of the day because school is out
10:02:08 <lukeparrish> crc: having a hard time getting that page to load. (I'm using Opera on a resource-limited computer.)
10:12:19 <lukeparrish> I've been thinking of trying to start into the forthmud project again, but I'm on a windows machine. not sure how to get socket support under the latest retro paradigm.
10:14:00 <lukeparrish> Also, I've been wondering how to generate graphical objects. I have done some tcl/tk coding lately, and am wondering if it can be translated to retro in some way.
10:45:06 <crc> the page load issues may be due to the javascript vm that's running in the page
10:56:21 <lukeparrish> yeah, when I disable javascript it loads fine
10:56:40 <lukeparrish> I like the look. simple, yet nice looking.
11:00:08 <crc> I'll probably have the vm not actually start processing the image until a button is clicked, which should solve the performance issue
11:02:55 <lukeparrish> the vm on the front page seems to load fine. is the new one expanded in some way?
11:03:29 <crc> nothing significant
11:03:53 <lukeparrish> might want to check for memory leaks and such
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11:04:13 <lukeparrish> hi sixforty
11:04:21 <sixforty> heya
11:04:28 <lukeparrish> wow, three active members at the same time
11:04:32 <sixforty> Do I know how to bbs, or what?
11:04:37 <lukeparrish> :)
11:04:41 <crc> I've fixed a lot of memory leaks over the last year
11:05:46 <crc> the new one is running a more current image, but that shouldn't slow things down
11:06:09 <crc> (the new image actually consumes less ram than the old one)
11:06:44 <lukeparrish> I'm using Opera 9.62
11:07:06 <lukeparrish> the old version loads instantly, whereas the new one seems to stall indefinately
11:19:13 <crc> I'll conduct some tests tonight
11:20:09 <lukeparrish> ok
11:22:38 <lukeparrish> I haven't had any luck getting graphics.retro to work so far
11:24:10 <sixforty> what kind of build (console, SDL . . .) are you using?
11:24:27 <lukeparrish> umm the windows bimary, whatever that is
11:24:31 <lukeparrish> it opens in a console
11:25:31 <sixforty> That's a console build. Dunno if framebuffer would run it, haven't tried it.
11:26:15 <lukeparrish> it didn't spit out any errors when I loaded graphics.retro
11:26:22 <sixforty> The pre-built win binary is console, but you can build a framebuffer
11:27:05 <sixforty> again, I haven't looked at it enough to know whether framebuffer is required for graphics.retro
11:28:33 <lukeparrish> hmm. I wonder if I can get dev-c++ to compile it.
11:28:56 <sixforty> well, the comment at its head says "Draw basic shapes on the framebuffer." Hrm.
11:30:02 <sixforty> From BUILDING in the source package: There is no documented way to build a Retro image on Windows. You can use
11:30:02 <sixforty> the online image builder to obtain one.
11:32:06 <crc> http://retroforth.org/R10/retro-10.0.tar.gz
11:32:31 <crc> not quite finished yet, but it includes an image
11:33:02 <crc> the framebuffer is required by graphics.retro
11:33:28 <sixforty> Windows binaries and image are gzipped?
11:33:32 <crc> the code will load, since the image can handle both console and framebuffer builds, but may crash or cause strange bugs when you run the graphical words
11:33:46 <crc> I don't provide binaries of the framebuffer anymore
11:34:19 <crc> (the framebuffer code is in desparate need of a rewrite, since it's not using SDL properly)
11:34:38 <sixforty> Now, why in the world I didn't put 'crc' together with 'Charles R ...' I don't know.
11:34:42 <crc> rewriting it is a high priority for me
11:34:42 <sixforty> hello and thanks
11:34:46 <crc> np
11:36:15 <sixforty> heard from raystm2 lately?
11:38:52 <crc> nope
11:39:00 <crc> he's without a net connection still
11:39:23 * crc has no net connection at home for now, which is why I'm not on more
11:40:19 <sixforty> right, thought mebbe you'd heard something since september. Anyway, colorforth.info came available, so I grabbed it and pointed at Ray's site. If you hear of him minding, let me know.
11:40:39 <sixforty> Been there. 
11:44:12 <crc> he won't mind. he'll probably be thrilled
11:45:09 <sixforty> I figure so, just wish he were around to ask. Anyway, I'll pass him the keys when he gets back on.
11:45:16 <sixforty> Anything I can do for you?
11:46:06 <sixforty> After all, I plan to swipe all your code and give you only adequate attribution and indemnity in return :P
11:46:55 <lukeparrish> what's some test code I can use to determine whether my graphics are working?
11:48:01 <sixforty> lukeparrish: what's the earliest version of windows you have available?
11:48:12 <lukeparrish> I'm on xp
11:48:45 <sixforty> any idea of whether that does all DOS functions? can you run DOS games?
11:48:54 <lukeparrish> sure, I think so
11:49:02 <lukeparrish> it has a DOS console
11:49:18 <sixforty> ever seen graphics in the DOS console?
11:49:25 <lukeparrish> yeah
11:49:41 <sixforty> then it probably has a memory extender, too
11:50:18 <lukeparrish> hmm. well, I haven't actually seen graphics in this one. I should get an old DOS game and try it.
11:50:30 <sixforty> know where to get one?
11:52:05 <lukeparrish> just got commander keen
11:52:12 <lukeparrish> http://www.commander-keen.com/download-keen-1.php
11:53:40 <lukeparrish> woah, the installer took the whole screen
11:57:09 <sixforty> don't know whether keen requires XMS, EMS, none, or comes packed with its own extender
12:04:39 <lukeparrish> keen4 gives more information
12:05:03 <lukeparrish> standard memory
12:05:44 <sixforty> you can open a "blank" dos console, right?
12:08:26 <lukeparrish> yeah
12:08:57 <sixforty> what does the command "mem" give you?
12:09:26 <crc> I should upload my keen collection (I have a packaged setup that uses dosbox)
12:09:54 <sixforty> tried retro on dosbox? (pardon my uncouthness)
12:09:58 <lukeparrish>     655360 bytes total conventional memory
12:09:58 <lukeparrish>     655360 bytes available to MS-DOS
12:09:58 <lukeparrish>     633760 largest executable program size
12:09:58 <lukeparrish>    1048576 bytes total contiguous extended memory
12:09:58 <lukeparrish>          0 bytes available contiguous extended memory
12:09:59 <lukeparrish>     941056 bytes available XMS memory
12:10:01 <lukeparrish>            MS-DOS resident in High Memory Area
12:10:04 <crc> nope
12:10:23 <crc> the vm has never been built for DOS AFAIK
12:11:07 <sixforty> so the memory is there, just haveta check for what kind of DPMI is or is not running. thanks
12:11:37 * crc just noticed your comment on swiping my code
12:12:15 <sixforty> heh. if i manage to do anything with it, it'll be on the same terms
12:12:47 <lukeparrish> yay, public domain :)
12:13:13 <sixforty> right. just remember nothing is ever free. it always costs someone
12:14:51 <sixforty> which is one of the reasons I repeat: crc: anything I can do for you? (and /msg is OK if I can find it--- not used to the client yet)
12:17:46 <lukeparrish> found a public domain forth that has a GUI: http://www.astrobe.byethost31.com/
12:18:10 <lukeparrish> it uses something called GraphApp
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12:19:19 <lukeparrish> hi virl
12:19:39 <virl> hi
12:19:43 <lukeparrish> now we have 4 people online :)
12:20:45 <virl> cool
12:26:37 <lukeparrish> we had a version of gtk working under retro 9.x, right?
12:26:58 <sixforty> graphapp has a restrictive license
12:28:35 <sixforty> I'd try 4im if I were desperate to go straight to graphics, but I prefer something with decent docs, which are getting rare with forths.
12:28:48 <lukeparrish> yeah
12:29:39 <lukeparrish> maybe tk?
12:31:38 <sixforty> though I've heard it mentioned many times, I'm unfamiliar
12:31:53 <lukeparrish> tk is the graphical side of tcl
12:32:15 <lukeparrish> it has been ported to a variety of other languages (c++, python, ruby, perl)
12:32:25 <lukeparrish> http://cpptk.sourceforge.net/
12:34:45 <lukeparrish> http://dec.bournemouth.ac.uk/staff/pknaggs/papers/tkforth/index.html seems to show how to call tcl/tk from forth
12:35:42 <sixforty> cpp, you don't know me
12:36:26 <lukeparrish> mainly I have just used tcl/tk
12:37:05 <lukeparrish> there's a cool thing called freewrap that lets you make executables out of tcl/tk scripts really easily.
12:37:35 <sixforty> and once again . . . license?
12:38:05 <crc> gtk worked fairly well under retro9
12:38:42 <lukeparrish> http://www.tcl.tk/software/tcltk/license.html (BSD-style license)
12:39:03 <sixforty> thanks
12:39:27 <lukeparrish> crc: it's basically a matter of callbacks, right?
12:40:38 <crc> mostly
12:40:46 <sixforty> actually, the tcl license is not even as restrictive as a BSD
12:40:58 <crc> retro10 lacks 8-bit addressable units, which makes things harder now
12:41:34 <crc> there was someone on the mailing list who was using gtkserver with retro10 IIRC
12:45:33 <lukeparrish> cool
12:48:53 <sixforty> If I were to build a 3D display device (real, not virtual) specifically for retro, would it be better to access it via a new retro image, or to set it up as a ngaro port? Opinions?
12:49:28 <crc> create a new set of I/O ports for Ngaro and modify the image as necessary
12:50:25 <sixforty> didn't take much time to think! Did you have this method of attaching new devices in mind already?
12:50:32 <crc> yes
12:50:52 <crc> I hope to eventually implement ngaro in hardware
12:50:56 <sixforty> tells me everything I wanted to know. thx. 
12:51:37 * sixforty screams unconvincingly: Don't throw me in that briar patch!
12:51:52 <sixforty> done it in ttl yet?
12:52:15 <sixforty> the processor only, I mean
12:54:13 * sixforty is much more at home with dipswitches and a pushbutton than with an OS
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13:05:03 <lukeparrish> trying to get gtk-server working
13:06:15 <crc> no
13:06:24 <crc> I can't afford the materials at this point
13:14:09 <sixforty> crc: approximately how often are you online right now?
13:18:11 <sixforty> lemme see . . . do I want the latest dual core 64b whatsis from AMD or 75 Z8's (formerly Z80) for less than 100 USD? multiprocessing, anyone?
13:20:12 <sixforty> slightly more seriously, what about a board that could accomodate 5 Z8's and an Encore 32, but you could start with one z8?
13:23:38 <sixforty> I know the data and arith/math  (numsize, etc) would be 32/64b, but is there a reason a forward-looking logic unit for retro should be more than 8b?
13:23:59 <crc> it was mostly a simplification choice
13:24:13 <crc> plus it'll allow for easier unicode support in the future
13:27:02 <sixforty> yeah, I understand that choice. I'm thinking of separating decision making from the data in my own hw unit. See any prospect of even 16-bit instructions (no data whatsoever included)?
13:27:51 <crc> I have no use for 16-bit operations myself
13:29:23 <crc> I've had some thoughts about doing packed instructions, where multiple opcodes could be packed into a single memory location, but haven't had time to actually try implementing that yet
13:29:41 <sixforty> I'll probably run across a reason not to use an 8b processor, variable bitlength storage, and a floating mathbox, but I can't think of any reasons right now.
13:30:20 <crc> jason (of herkforth fame) has been doing packed instructions in his fovium project (http://jasonwoof.org/fovium)
13:31:57 <sixforty> hmm  the source link is busted
13:32:19 <crc> http://jasonwoof.com/downloads/fovium-2008-04-24.tar.bz2
13:32:34 <sixforty> thx
13:32:49 <crc> np
13:33:04 <crc> I fixed the wiki link as well, so others won't get caught by it
13:34:50 <sixforty> any idea what license? I'm trying to stick with pd.
13:36:52 <sixforty> Isn't fronds/fovium somewhat analagous to retro/ngaro? Rather stay near your spiffy docs, if it's all the same :)
13:38:01 <crc> it's a similar approach
13:38:08 <crc> you like my docs?
13:39:07 <sixforty> yes, I like the docs. thank you. I know there's more to be filled in, but what's there I can easily find.
13:41:06 <lukeparrish> I agree, retro docs are really spiffy
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13:48:02 <crc> thanks
13:57:47 * crc has to go. have a great night
13:58:01 <sixforty> cya crc, tx again
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15:32:02 <sixforty> how long have you been opping in here?
15:40:31 <lukeparrish> hmm, doesn't it op registered users by default?
15:40:52 <sixforty> nope.
15:41:03 <lukeparrish> it used to. maybe that's changed
15:41:08 <sixforty> well, depends on what you mean by registered
15:41:40 <lukeparrish> the thing where you message the nickserv...
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15:42:12 <lukeparrish> well, I've been active in this channel a lot over the past few years
15:42:23 <sixforty> apparently not. You have been chosen. Good choice, IMO.
15:42:26 <lukeparrish> :)
15:43:25 <sixforty> you ever do hardware?
15:44:04 <lukeparrish> nope
15:44:15 <lukeparrish> I'm lame about hardware
15:44:23 <lukeparrish> and kind of lame about software too :P
15:45:09 <lukeparrish> well, relatively speaking anyway
15:45:53 <sixforty> It should be easy to assemble ngaro onto an 8-bit processor and load an image. Shouldn't be too hard to modify retro for 8-bit expandable, either.
15:46:16 <lukeparrish> that sounds cool
15:46:31 <lukeparrish> so you do hardware a lot?
15:46:58 <sixforty> In fact, I may be able over time (read "just after they stop making the chips) to come up with a ngaro based on actual hardware
15:47:07 <sixforty> used to, aeons ago
15:47:14 <sixforty> now I drive truck
15:47:42 <lukeparrish> I've considered getting a CDL
15:47:52 <lukeparrish> opens a lot of job opportunities
15:47:57 <sixforty> the user would have the choice of running vm on their OS or buying/building a comp
15:48:26 <sixforty> you'd probably have to drive OTR first. married/otherwise commited?
15:49:02 <sixforty> put another way, are you wanting to stay close to home?
15:49:03 <lukeparrish> yeah I'm married
15:49:26 <lukeparrish> she doesn't want to consider moving or anything :/
15:49:50 <sixforty> There are some jobs where CDL B might help. That could be obtained and used locally.
15:50:33 <lukeparrish> if I'm crazy enough, school buses
15:50:38 <sixforty> If you're looking at CDL A, you absolutely must be wired for truck driving. Kids now or in future?
15:50:50 <lukeparrish> hoping to
15:51:04 <lukeparrish> not near future though
15:51:18 <lukeparrish> trying to get through college so I can be in computers
15:52:02 <sixforty> Ah, I see. You won't be ruining your life out on the road, then.
15:52:04 <lukeparrish> I'm working on my first two years of a computer science degree at a community college.
15:52:21 <lukeparrish> how about you, do you enjoy trucking?
15:52:28 <sixforty> Do you absolutely love to drive?
15:52:53 <sixforty> Yes, I do. Like anything, not always. But mainly yes.
15:53:02 <sixforty> Married, empty nest.
15:53:03 <lukeparrish> hmm. I am good at it, but I do get tired of it sometimes.
15:53:19 <sixforty> What does 'good at it' mean?
15:53:47 <sixforty> fast, skilled, right attitude, all 3?
15:54:14 <lukeparrish> Yeah, I'd say so.
15:54:36 <lukeparrish> I'm very hazard-conscious, but I still tend to drive fairly fast.
15:54:53 <sixforty> If you're driving a bus, the ego must go.
15:55:11 <lukeparrish> True.
15:55:29 <sixforty> If there's a larger school near you, your school may help you get a job as shuttle driver.
15:55:59 <sixforty> you're over 25?
15:56:04 <lukeparrish> I don't think there's any that big near wher eI live
15:56:11 <lukeparrish> yeah I'm 25.
15:56:51 <sixforty> cool. law says 21, but employers find ways around that and want 25. Well, really 27 but 25 for a good candidate.
15:58:39 <sixforty> If local's what you're looking for, school bus may be the only way to start. Many districts or contracted firms have training which gets you A or B(usually) and passenger endorsement.
15:59:06 <lukeparrish> Cool.
15:59:32 <sixforty> Just don't beleive anyone that says you can start out driving big trucks locally.
15:59:50 <sixforty> either you can't, or the employer really, really sucks
16:00:17 <lukeparrish> heh, I can understand that.
16:01:29 <lukeparrish> reading http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos242.htm
16:01:31 <sixforty> Big truck is tractor/trailer. There're some decent 6- or maybe 10-wheel jobs for the very lucky newbie, but I don't think the hours would allow you to go to school
16:02:32 <sixforty> after all, they're from the government and they're here to help
16:03:20 <lukeparrish> hehe
16:03:42 <sixforty> have you checked with your campus? If there's not an employment office, someone fills the function, especially at community and tech colleges
16:04:06 <sixforty> not necessarily for on-site employment, but for referral
16:05:33 <lukeparrish> there are a few employment offices around... I guess I frustrate too easily when it comes to looking for work.
16:05:36 <sixforty> ever programmed or looked at machine/assembler code?
16:05:57 <lukeparrish> I've looked at it... I understand little.
16:06:38 <sixforty> I'm thinking about rabbit 2000 processor. Mebbe 5000 if it's not too expensive when they get it ready.
16:06:52 <lukeparrish> right now I live off of student loans, staying with my wife's grandparents. not the best lot in life, but could always be worse.
16:07:22 <sixforty> How well and interestingly do you write?
16:08:01 <lukeparrish> pretty well.
16:08:50 <lukeparrish> I managed to get 72 on the english comp clep with essay, without any special preparation.
16:09:05 <lukeparrish> 80 is the maximum score
16:10:19 <sixforty> looked at Associated Content?
16:10:35 <sixforty> http://www.associatedcontent.com/
16:10:58 <lukeparrish> there's a thought
16:11:01 <sixforty> not a recommendation, I've no idea. Like to try it, tho.
16:11:31 <sixforty> Yeah. Sure wouldn't be a living, perhaps not even a sandwich, but . . .
16:11:44 <lukeparrish> my dad told me to try that one... I haven't even really looked yet
16:12:24 <sixforty> go talk to people (in person) about Obama, write it up. It's hot right now.
16:12:40 <sixforty> I think you've enough diplomacy to get a good cross-section.
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16:13:02 <sixforty> Delay and it will, of course, be worthless :)
16:14:04 <lukeparrish> hmmmmm
16:14:10 <lukeparrish> that sounds like fun :)
16:15:13 <sixforty> Or how incredibly useful people are having trouble making a living. Charles, Ray . . . . Relate it to your own and the reader's experience. Almost as hot, and you can take a little longer to write it.
16:18:36 <lukeparrish> That's a thought.
16:18:51 <lukeparrish> How do you know if an idea is hot or not?
16:20:44 <sixforty> you guess, just like the people who're looking for it do :P
16:21:19 <sixforty> currency is the main thing. They want something the search engine will hit, and the people will click.
16:21:50 <sixforty> ac also has open requests for content you can peruse
16:23:48 <lukeparrish> hmm. I could write about nanotech and vermicomposting... of course, obama stuff might pay off the best.
16:24:12 <sixforty> vermicomposting? what's that?
16:26:42 <sixforty> Or, hey, your situation's not unique. Look really hard for suitable work and write that up. Heads you win, tails you win.
16:26:56 <lukeparrish> composting with worms
16:27:27 <lukeparrish> there's species of worms that eat organic matter really fast and leave castings that work as high-quality potting soil
16:28:06 <lukeparrish> I had a blog a while back, and the article on worms accounted for a huge percentage of google hits
16:29:21 <sixforty> there are a few articles on composting on ac, but they're all terribly written
16:30:11 <lukeparrish> cool, maybe I have a shot
16:30:49 <sixforty> and in this case, you may be able to write about it and actually do it as a business
16:31:23 <lukeparrish> true. I have considered doing it as a business.
16:31:44 <sixforty> you thought about bait, too, right?
16:31:50 <lukeparrish> I haven't built it up mainly because of my distractability...
16:31:53 <lukeparrish> yeah
16:33:20 <sixforty> compare http://www.unclejimswormfarm.com/ with http://www.vermiculture.com/ . Which has a writer, and which do you think actually knows their stuff?
16:37:23 <lukeparrish> hmm
16:37:32 <lukeparrish> both probably have writers
16:38:39 <lukeparrish> uncle jim's does look a bit like a kid's school project
16:39:21 <sixforty> sure, but I'd bet people stay there longer
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16:47:07 <lukeparrish> probably. it does seem more genuine.
16:48:07 <sixforty> Also, you might find a way to get ppl's old comps to stay viable longer without loading Vista.
16:48:29 <sixforty> They'd pay ya to keep from going (or keeping) Vista.
16:49:35 <sixforty> the way things are going with the economy, many can afford you better than they can afford to upgrade the hw for it
16:50:53 <lukeparrish> hmm. maybe a good article idea there.
16:51:03 <lukeparrish> how to use ubuntu instead of vista
16:51:46 <sixforty> Actually, ubuntu ain't a real friend of older machines, either
16:52:35 <lukeparrish> true
16:52:42 <lukeparrish> Puppy Linux!
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16:53:11 <lukeparrish> hi Quartus
16:53:21 <Quartus> Hi.
17:06:06 <sixforty> seen damnsmalllinux?
17:06:53 <lukeparrish> yeah
17:07:40 <lukeparrish> heh, now you have me wanting to try out linux distros again :)
17:07:47 <sixforty> If someone's happy with their xp, the only reason they're looking at upgrade is a new file or data format.
17:08:23 <sixforty> a couple of linuxes will work in an xp window. they may be able to handle the new formats
17:08:51 <sixforty> if they're looking to run a new game, you'll haveta tell em 'new comp'
17:15:16 <lukeparrish> yeah
17:15:55 <lukeparrish> although, wine can handle a lot more than it used to
17:16:42 <sixforty> well, their current xp would already be set up 'their way'
17:16:52 <lukeparrish> true
17:17:20 <sixforty> just add capability to read new formats so they can keep it a bit longer
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