00:00:00 --- log: started retro/07.06.06
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16:04:46 <Raystm2> Hey Roger. Thanks for the Fasm file.
16:04:51 <Raystm2> Was just reading it.
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16:08:19 <rabbitwhite> cool let me know if there are any files you discover that you need.  just don't ask for the whole directory cuz that probably would not make it easier, it's just a lot of unmaintained junk during a time when i was really restless and scatterbrained
16:08:34 <RayS> :)
16:09:12 <RayS> No, If this file will make the system, then this is all that is necessary. I can't wait to run it thru fasm and get a listing.
16:09:20 <RayS> oops
16:09:32 <RayS> I'm also Raystm2 :)
16:09:56 <RayS> I got a Opera Browser now on crc's recomendation. I'm just loving it.
16:10:04 <RayS> can't stop playing with it.
16:10:22 <rabbitwhite> mmhmm.
16:11:48 <RayS> Tabbed browsing in this verses IE or Firefox... it's a whole new level.
16:12:05 <rabbitwhite> what's the difference
16:12:52 <RayS> Opera is a web fanatics browser. It's just, well done! 
16:13:09 <RayS> you can chat, mail, browse from it.
16:13:23 <RayS> newsgroup too I'm sure.
16:13:25 <rabbitwhite> oh
16:13:32 <rabbitwhite> i know about those features ... i used to use opera
16:13:47 <timlarson> used to --> what do you use now?
16:14:07 <RayS> This is like being spoiled after using IE for so long.
16:14:09 <rabbitwhite> i switched back to firefox.
16:15:06 <rabbitwhite> it has better plugins, and opera was becoming a resource hog
16:15:38 <rabbitwhite> and i like gmail fine, didnt really like opera's mail client
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16:16:15 <Raystm2> cept i'm always doing that! :)
16:16:25 <rabbitwhite> internet browsers bore me to tears anyway, so ... they are basically all equal in my eyes, just used to firefox
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16:16:50 <rabbitwhite> what, hogging resources?
16:17:31 <RayS> but having it come right back up where I left off, and so fast, man I like this browser.
16:17:47 <rabbitwhite> firefox does that too
16:17:57 <rabbitwhite> opera stopped starting fast for me
16:17:57 <RayS> no I wanted to close a window, hit alt-f4 and meant to hit ctrl-f4
16:18:03 <rabbitwhite> over time it began to be about the same
16:18:09 <RayS> I see.
16:18:21 <RayS> Ill look forward to that then.
16:22:52 <rabbitwhite> so i'm thinking about selling GC Forth now, instead of holding off until it's "perfect", or at least what my idea of perfect was a few weeks ago
16:23:28 <rabbitwhite> since it requires you to spend some money on hardware before you can use it, i have to put a low price on it
16:23:45 <rabbitwhite> which would also justify it being imperfect on release, but it can be easily updated
16:26:41 <rabbitwhite> on the other hand, if it's too cheap people will think it must not be that useful ...
16:27:05 <Raystm2> You don't have to put a low price on it because of needing extra hardware. Only change the price if your audiance doesn't have very many resources.
16:27:12 <Raystm2> People are gonna wanna hack the GC
16:27:36 <Raystm2> They'll spend 500 bucks for a game system and 50 bucks a game...
16:27:57 <Raystm2> You make what the traffic will bear. :)
16:28:26 <Raystm2> you start low to get interest and then you consistantly raise the price giving customers a sence of urgency.
16:28:54 <rabbitwhite> mm
16:29:14 <rabbitwhite> well, i guess i should still add stuff to the bundle to justify the price raise
16:29:28 <rabbitwhite> but i get what you're saying
16:29:45 <rabbitwhite> maybe the price should start at $25 and go up to $50 when I write the big manual
16:29:51 <Raystm2> Any way. looking over your file here and I think there is two files that are needed, so far. One is words.f and the other is the fasm macros file if you made any changes to any standard macros file( if there is such a thing). Do you think I could possibly get those as well, please. :)
16:30:15 <rabbitwhite> no problem
16:30:39 <Raystm2> Yikes I was thinking that... you'd start out at about 200, and then climb as close to a grand as you could get.
16:30:56 <rabbitwhite> wow
16:31:00 <rabbitwhite> it's not that awesome yet
16:31:07 <rabbitwhite> i'm not a thief
16:31:12 <rabbitwhite> :)
16:31:20 <Raystm2> You concider that robbery?
16:31:32 <rabbitwhite> well, i think that adobe's prices are heinous
16:31:34 <Raystm2> I suppose only you can put a value on your work.
16:31:35 <rabbitwhite> for example
16:31:44 <rabbitwhite> well its like, this thing has bugs
16:31:49 <Raystm2> I know an attourney that makes more then that an hour.
16:31:50 <rabbitwhite> but subtle ones
16:32:09 <rabbitwhite> so i was thinking release it now as is, fix it up a little as time goes by with free updates
16:32:17 <rabbitwhite> but then release a brand name even awesomer version for alot more
16:32:20 <rabbitwhite> *new
16:32:23 <rabbitwhite> not name
16:32:53 <Raystm2> Bell used to make $20,000 a copy on UNIX
16:33:04 <Raystm2> in the seventies.
16:33:33 <rabbitwhite> how much do you think it's worth now?
16:33:39 <rabbitwhite> i mean GC Forth
16:33:40 <Raystm2> I bet people wanting to get anouther use out of there un or under used cubes will want this.
16:34:26 <Raystm2> I really don't know, at this point. Best to join a few chats or lists that these cubers congregate, subtly inquire there.
16:34:43 <Raystm2> Check pulse. 
16:34:51 <Raystm2> look for need. find market.
16:35:12 <Raystm2> then you can totaly adress the issues of price and availablity.
16:36:23 <Raystm2> But like i said earlier, a quick test of book prices online for new publishers start at about 30-50 dollars, and then they always say stuff like it's going up in a week, and it always goes up
16:37:39 <Raystm2> it builds a sence of urgency. 
16:37:45 <rabbitwhite> yeah, i get it
16:37:51 <rabbitwhite> it sounds really cool
16:38:16 <rabbitwhite> and i would like to make a good amount of money from this, because i want to go part time at work and i make just enough to live from my day job
16:38:25 * Raystm2 needs to get a product online fast!
16:38:43 <Raystm2> You should definately do that. 
16:38:55 * Raystm2 foody goes to kitchen.
16:39:19 <Quartus> have you ever sold a product before?
16:39:28 <rabbitwhite> me? 
16:39:30 <Quartus> yes.
16:39:33 <rabbitwhite> no
16:40:05 <Quartus> It's a pretty significant undertaking.  Payment processing, delivery, support; marketing, product development.
16:40:47 <rabbitwhite> well, thats another reason why i wanted to sell it cheap ...  i want it to be informal, not really much marketing or puffery
16:41:01 <Quartus> Be careful not to price it too low.
16:41:05 <rabbitwhite> i want it to be sold based on interest and its own merit
16:41:20 <rabbitwhite> why or people will not buy it right
16:41:38 <Quartus> They might buy too much of it.  Each new customer is a drain on your finite support resources.
16:41:45 <rabbitwhite> oh
16:41:53 <rabbitwhite> well THATS where my genius support policy comes in
16:42:32 <rabbitwhite> instead of one-on-one emails i'll probably just listen to the problems people are having and post the answers in a single place, like a message board
16:42:49 <Quartus> That's what I did. Helps a little.
16:43:19 <rabbitwhite> and, no posting allowed by anyone else but me so no way it can get clogged with digressions or whining
16:43:33 <rabbitwhite> and
16:44:00 <rabbitwhite> write good documentation.  thats one reason why support is such a problem, people don't know how to write good docs and i want to make a good effort on mine to prove my point
16:44:08 <Quartus> Docs help, certainly.
16:44:10 <Raystm2> I would allow anybody but moderate untill a moderator can be found to release you.
16:44:39 <Raystm2> You are bound to build a community out of this, and that's what you want. Customers are hard to come by, save them and sell to them again and again.
16:44:51 <rabbitwhite> nah, skip that, they can email me, and they can always make their own forums and hire their own moderators
16:45:15 <rabbitwhite> i have too much stuff to do, i dont want to get too involved on the internet
16:45:21 <Raystm2> ALso some wont' by on first glance, but will be back to an interesting community == until they do buy.
16:47:20 <rabbitwhite> well ... what if there already was a community, before it even went public
16:48:03 <rabbitwhite> i can see it having a better chance if there are some really good demonstrations of its potential
16:48:48 <rabbitwhite> and i would like to share it with some people
16:49:06 <timlarson> It is interesting how programmers *want to sell* on workability, while business people *actually do sell* on marketting.
16:49:18 <timlarson> the software I use at work as cases in point.
16:53:29 <rabbitwhite> i think it would be advantageous for a lot of people to learn it early on
16:53:41 <rabbitwhite> and by a lot i dont really mean that much, maybe 9 or 10 people
16:53:46 <rabbitwhite> maybe less
16:54:51 <rabbitwhite> but at least then there could be some understanding and it could make it easier to develop docs and market it
16:54:59 <rabbitwhite> and i'd share the profits of course
16:55:41 <RayS> sounds cool.
16:55:52 <rabbitwhite> would anyone be interested?
16:56:10 <RayS> Ya, you should look for those programmers that will test this out for you.
16:56:23 <rabbitwhite> there would be no need to do beta programming or collective development, everyone would be free to do anything they wanted, to go in whatever direction they wanted 
16:56:36 <RayS> I see. Makes sence.
16:56:38 <rabbitwhite> well, i guess.  but would you?
16:56:58 <rabbitwhite> and would anyone else here be interested?
16:57:13 <RayS> have to get a cube.
16:57:27 <crc> rabbitwhite: I'd be interested 
16:58:34 * RayS keeps eyes open for cube. with no income, ill need to trade something...
16:59:02 <rabbitwhite> thats the thing, you really need more than just the cube
16:59:29 <RayS> Okay, what are the requirements.
17:01:14 <rabbitwhite> the minimum is 3 things, you need an SD card adapter ($15), a copy of Action Replay ($30) OR a modchip ($15), and a keyboard adapter OR Gamecube-compatible keyboard (~$20)
17:01:36 <Quartus> you plan to sell the whole shebang?
17:01:42 <rabbitwhite> oh, and if you got a modchip you'd need the dvd-r that boots the sd card :-)
17:01:56 <rabbitwhite> i might, if i ever get the startup cash i'd need
17:02:12 <Quartus> why do you need startup cash to do that?
17:02:37 <rabbitwhite> because i'd need to have supplies of those if i was going to sell them ?
17:03:00 <rabbitwhite> i dunno it seemed obvious to me
17:03:05 <Quartus> you don't, in fact.  You can process an order, then aquire, package, and ship the required components.
17:03:18 <Quartus> Over time, you can build stock if your proceeds permit.
17:03:22 <rabbitwhite> oh
17:03:24 <rabbitwhite> hm
17:03:48 <rabbitwhite> i guess that slow of a method would be expected at the beginning
17:04:06 <Quartus> Set the customer's expectations appropriately at the time of sale.
17:04:47 <RayS> infact, you could, tho it be a tad unwieldy at first, find people who sell those items and let them process orders for their particular stuff from your site, where you share profits. 
17:05:00 <Quartus> that would be a logicistical nightmare in my opinion
17:05:14 <Quartus> logistical
17:05:28 <Quartus> hmm, perhaps I'm low on food
17:05:33 <Quartus> foodistical substances
17:05:42 <rabbitwhite> the problem is after shipping and because i'd be paying retail for each component, the price for the user for everything would be unbelievably high
17:05:49 <RayS> Better then having to do all that your self. Look its as simple as createing a form on a web page that parcells out the orders to each vendor.
17:05:58 <Quartus> rabbitwhite, you hope to pass along wholesale pricing or something?
17:06:45 <rabbitwhite> oh, i guess
17:06:57 <Quartus> Of course your services as an integrator increase the price.
17:07:08 <rabbitwhite> i dunno, one big problem is Action Replays are in short supply now, and supposedly they are knocking out the Add New Code functionality
17:07:10 <Quartus> You're adding value.  I hope.
17:07:24 <rabbitwhite> well the program is pretty solid
17:07:40 <rabbitwhite> and really, really fun
17:07:46 <Quartus> hmm, ok.  Sounds like the ground you've built on is shaky.
17:07:54 <rabbitwhite> yeah, this was a recent development, so,
17:08:01 <RayS> my way keeps the owner/operator working on marketing and the vendors working on collection, shipping,and order fulfilment, which is a much of what needs to be done by a business. Also, they can handle thier own problems.
17:08:18 <rabbitwhite> i mean its not impossible to get the right version of AR for others, but i dont know how many would still be out there for me to sell
17:08:52 <Quartus> Then your market is going to disappear?
17:09:31 <RayS> You may need to reverse engineer some of those devices, or even work with the manufactures.
17:09:47 <Quartus> which means as a one-man shop, you're already dead.
17:10:15 <rabbitwhite> i guess.  
17:10:27 <rabbitwhite> but a lot of people have the AR's and the SD card adapters
17:10:35 <rabbitwhite> its a setup called "SDLOAD"
17:10:37 <RayS> Not necessarily. You really don't know until you talk with those manufacturers. For all we know, they have a supply of devices, but no market.
17:10:37 <Quartus> Well, I don't mean to be pessmistic.  But it's better to figure out if the thing will fly before you load it with passengers, if you see what I mean. :)
17:10:42 <rabbitwhite> lots of homebrew people are set up with it
17:10:53 <rabbitwhite> oh, i know
17:10:59 <RayS> :)
17:11:00 <rabbitwhite> there are just so many paths to look at
17:11:17 <rabbitwhite> so i guess it'll take time
17:11:33 <Quartus> yeah.  I ask about the kit because I've sold a number of different things in component form, and the single most common question is if I sell the whole shebang, soup to nuts.
17:12:06 <rabbitwhite> well , i can go either way because a lot of the people who would be interested already have the required stuff
17:12:11 <Quartus> It's a valid question. If somebody comes along and thinks, hey, neat -- oh, but I have to climb this whole other mountain first?
17:12:22 <rabbitwhite> yeah
17:12:32 <RayS> plug and play world.
17:12:51 <Quartus> so the people with the right widget now are your existing market -- but once you sell to that bunch, you'd be done.
17:13:02 <Quartus> So for longevity you need to be able to grow the market.
17:13:18 <rabbitwhite> well, i figure, there is a finite # of people who would EVER buy it ...
17:13:27 <rabbitwhite> so, thats why i wanted to kind of get them "hooked in"
17:13:44 <rabbitwhite> and sell them newer, much better and more expensive versions later
17:13:57 <rabbitwhite> i mean, i guess i just realized that thats the reason why i thought it was a good idea
17:14:38 <Quartus> that goes back to support.  If you expect them to hang around for version 2, you have to support them on version 1.  Which is a serious resource drain.
17:14:49 <Quartus> The biggest one, in fact.  It can swamp you.
17:15:15 <rabbitwhite> well,
17:15:30 <rabbitwhite> the point of Forth is kind of to empower people to deal with their own problems,
17:16:09 <rabbitwhite> so like half of my answers to people would be "there is no function that does that", or "no, i'm not adding that because you can do it this way"
17:16:35 <rabbitwhite> thats how i want it to be , at least
17:17:06 <Quartus> Support takes a huge variety of forms.  But even when the answers are simple, it takes time.
17:17:10 <rabbitwhite> mm
17:17:44 <Quartus> So you can do this, but you have to be prepared to really put your shoulder to it or it'll die on the vine, to mix metaphors.
17:18:58 <rabbitwhite> well, obviously the docs need to take care of as much as possible, or else i'll be handling questions that shouldve been answered by it.  it needs to be really clear and to the point.  they need to feel like they can find out anything from it and that there is no need to tug at anyone's dress for help all the time
17:19:54 <Quartus> I speak from experience.  Quartus Forth is somewhat similar to what you're proposing to sell, in a number of ways.  Forth, on specialized hardware.
17:21:26 <rabbitwhite> well, yeah, okay
17:21:48 <rabbitwhite> mine is minimalistic, though
17:22:14 <rabbitwhite> it probably doesnt have the same out-of-box power as yours
17:23:10 <rabbitwhite> like, its not the Egg Machine from Thinking Forth .. i guess the only way to get people to pay a lot for it is to have a lot of code already written for it, like game engines
17:23:14 <Quartus> From the perspective of someone who doesn't know how to program in Forth, or how to program at all...
17:23:27 <Quartus> which will be at least part of your customer base.
17:23:41 <rabbitwhite> i need to not have those
17:23:51 <rabbitwhite> i'll probably make it clear on the page that this is not Game Maker
17:24:26 <rabbitwhite> although it could one day kind of be
17:24:32 <rabbitwhite> definitely 
17:24:43 <Quartus> Nonetheless you will have a significant percentage of customers who cannot adequately evaluate the product in relation to their own skills.  It is from that disparity that the largest amount of support arises.
17:25:23 <rabbitwhite> THAT's why i need to have people who already know it before i sell it to the kids
17:25:32 <rabbitwhite> so THEY can teach it to them and make some money
17:25:45 <rabbitwhite> i want to provide the tool but i dont want to be the full-time teacher too
17:26:16 <Raystm2> Teachers. Not a bad idea. That would be a good market for you to explore.
17:26:24 <Quartus> ok.  A nice goal, but it projects the kind of success you only get from climbing the mountain first.  I'm just saying it's a huge undertaking for a solitary individual, and is not likely to steadily bring the kind of money that will let you change your lifestyle.
17:28:04 * Raystm2 wonders if he shouldn't get in the business set up business.
17:28:06 <rabbitwhite> well, if i made a couple hundred a month i'd be happy
17:28:56 <Quartus> after your costs, I assume
17:29:05 <Quartus> but from what kind of time investment?
17:29:31 <Raystm2> rabbitwhite: that's a very good starting point. How much do you need to make a month?
17:29:42 <Quartus> an hour a day? Ten hours a week?  Every evening?  Weekends?
17:30:03 <rabbitwhite> Probably most mornings because i work late
17:30:12 <Raystm2> If you can determine the size of the market, and how often a unit will sell, that's your price calculation.
17:30:53 <Raystm2> You might make much much more on a book describing the process, then actually providing the tangibles.
17:31:32 <Raystm2> I'm willing to bet thats a much larger, more stable market, and something an individual can handle doing.
17:31:46 <rabbitwhite> oh definitely ... because i can print it on demand for like $6 with lulu.com and make like a 500% profit
17:32:08 <Raystm2> THEN you can start producing units, if you desire.
17:32:21 <rabbitwhite> units?
17:32:37 <Raystm2> tangibles. Cubes fitted with all of your requirments.
17:32:49 <Raystm2> shipped in a box.
17:33:17 <rabbitwhite> oh god, i doubt it any time soon
17:33:23 <rabbitwhite> and probably not by me by myself
17:33:23 <Raystm2> :)
17:33:28 <Raystm2> right
17:33:42 <rabbitwhite> i dont really want to that bad either, i mean if somebody came to me that was like i could make this work and profitably id be like why not
17:33:42 <Raystm2> no, we go overseas for that. ( we hehe )
17:34:59 <rabbitwhite> its just not on my mind right now
17:35:27 * Raystm2 has developed many many products and markets over 20 years.
17:36:10 <Raystm2> I invented a brake system for pneumatic casters.
17:36:25 <Raystm2> Everyone in the industry uses it.
17:36:47 <Raystm2> Well I didn't invent it. I adaped a brake system to a pnuematic caster.
17:38:31 <rabbitwhite> thats cool
17:39:13 <Raystm2> In the materials handling industry, especially in the casters subgroup, you talk to lots of designers bringing products to put on wheels.
17:39:55 <Raystm2> You know that MIST-ON-TAN booths. I put them on wheels.
17:40:31 <Raystm2> I designed a train for UPS that they use in malls for delivering the entire mall from one driver and truck.
17:40:46 <Raystm2> It's testing in North Hill Mall.
17:40:50 <Raystm2> Hills
17:41:06 <rabbitwhite> thats amazing.
17:41:54 <Raystm2> I've made millions of dollars for many people, all on salary and bonuses. I never have done that for myself yet.
17:42:19 <rabbitwhite> is that the highest goal in life?
17:42:50 <Raystm2> No, but in a capitalist community, it is the only way to have resonable access to life.
17:43:07 <rabbitwhite> tcouhe
17:43:13 <rabbitwhite> god i cant even spell *touche
17:43:36 <rabbitwhite> so yeah, thats basically why i want some $ right now
17:43:44 <Raystm2> Very few are famous enough to get by on looks alone. :)
17:43:47 <rabbitwhite> i need more money for electronics and supplies
17:43:50 <rabbitwhite> and furniture
17:43:55 <rabbitwhite> and clothes
17:44:26 <rabbitwhite> ok so 1) write manual first and then beta or 2) beta-during-writing-of-manual
17:44:59 <Raystm2> If I were your age and knew what I know now, I would find something, some project bound to make you an income, and then go after that like it was a drug and I was addicted, untill it got on it's own. Where it operates and you don't need to be there. 
17:45:06 <Raystm2> One thing tho...
17:45:14 <Raystm2> Always be the guy that signs the checks.
17:45:31 <Raystm2> Thats the best way to keep up with it all. 
17:46:09 <Raystm2> I would put all other things out of my mind. 
17:46:21 <Raystm2> Your not tied down just now. 
17:46:24 <Raystm2> Good timing.
17:46:49 <Raystm2> Working now will make not needing to work come sooner.
17:48:09 <Raystm2> Then, your options get better and better. Your reach and your resources are only limited by your imagination.
17:48:14 <Raystm2> Always was.
17:48:56 <Raystm2> There are 6 degrees, ( hehe ) to the guy that has what you need to get off the ground, what ever that is.
17:51:31 * Raystm2 slides soapbox back under bed.
17:55:06 <Raystm2> Okay, got to take some teenagers somewhere. Back in about 40 minutes. Roger, if I miss ya, thanks again for that file, thanks in advance for the other two, and thanks for letting an old man feel good for half an hour. :)
17:55:59 <rabbitwhite> any time
17:56:07 <rabbitwhite> thank you
18:04:57 <timlarson> recommendations for a webserver for a high volume website written in a custom forth?
18:05:24 <timlarson> there is the standard apache, but wdyt?
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