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15:14:15 <crc> good evening
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17:13:52 <Raystm2> Man, crc, how much does Toka resemble a functional lambda calculus?
17:15:02 <Raystm2> I think you may have a functional Functional Forth.
17:15:27 <Raystm2> Fun-Fun-Forth.
17:15:40 <Raystm2> or funFunForth
17:16:49 <Raystm2> Which, of course will spawn the disFunctionalFunForths.
17:18:13 <timlarson> hi Raystm2 :)
17:23:43 <Raystm2> Hey there timlarson. How are ya?
17:36:06 <timlarson> doing pretty well
17:36:38 <timlarson> been busy working on fisp and my hopefully soon to be launched website.
17:36:54 <timlarson> how are you doing?
17:37:39 <timlarson> I am working on a discolored monitor...so it is hard to distinguish when xchat says a channel is active ;)
17:38:29 <Raystm2> :)
17:38:36 <Raystm2> I'm okay, considering. 
17:38:53 <timlarson> are you ok...not considering?
17:39:06 <Raystm2> Currently engrossed in PBS show about Darpa Robot Vehical contest.
17:39:35 <timlarson> sounds interesting, I will try not to bug you too much :)
17:40:03 <Raystm2> Yes, I am indeed okay not considering, as I spent some time considering not considering that very consideration for your consideration.
17:40:17 <timlarson> hehe
17:40:59 <timlarson> I am testing the idea of rewriting fisp in haskell...and trying to learn haskell in the process.
17:41:01 <Raystm2> These machines are really great. 
17:41:07 <Raystm2> Must be online, I'll find.
17:42:08 <Raystm2> Ive been spending the day with lambda calculus, after having read toka all night long.
17:43:04 <timlarson> I am exploring the idea of a super-programming-language being a computing-space-creator.
17:43:06 <Raystm2> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/  its nova and it's on now, atleast here.
17:43:18 <timlarson> allowing you to create your own computing space with its own properties.
17:45:49 <Raystm2> Neat. That's what lambda calculus allows. You create an environment that can execute code.
17:46:28 <Raystm2> A function value contains code and the environment to execute that code. 
17:46:41 <timlarson> yes, and haskell seems to come very close...so trying to implement fisp in haskell, then see if I can duplicate such functionality in fisp.
17:46:42 <Raystm2> I suppose much like Forth. 
17:47:21 <Raystm2> With a bnf description in forth one could create a lambda calculus that is quite powerful.
17:47:35 <timlarson> i.e. take haskell and change the syntax...and tweak this and that
17:47:44 <Raystm2> I think Toka is more naturally applied in this direction then Forth itself tho.
17:48:10 <timlarson> the pure-functional aspect seems to help support creating environments with custom properties.
17:48:35 <Raystm2> You want to build on the very bedrock of computability theory so as to not miss including something important later on.
17:49:01 <Raystm2> I believe I know what you are saying there. 
17:50:36 <timlarson> the other day I figured out haskell could support macro expansion (yeah, I know it already does with the template package) without messing with the static type system...if the macro expansions only happen at compile time, not live at run time.
17:52:20 <timlarson> but haskell syntax is quite distant from the template-macro syntax :(
17:53:16 <Raystm2> whats the template-macro syntax look like?
17:53:47 <timlarson> I do think toka and fisp style quotes and postfix notation are the beginning of a better syntax for a macro-able functional language.
17:54:03 <Raystm2> ( Great Robot Race -- unmaned thru 130 miles of Mohave.
17:54:06 <timlarson> from the example I saw it was sort of lisp-like.
17:54:07 <Raystm2> )
18:03:01 <Raystm2> crc: looks like you may be having an image issue at your toka page 9812
18:10:12 <crc> what is wrong?
18:10:57 <Raystm2> checking to be sure but the TOKA pix isnt displaying, just a blank filled with the source. In IE
18:11:14 <crc> IE has problems with SVG
18:11:22 <Raystm2> ya still not showing.
18:11:24 <Raystm2> AH okay.
18:11:37 <crc> I recommend opera or firefox :)
18:11:56 * Raystm2 switches quickly over to firefox with won't run quicktime movies or web content and that ticks me off.
18:12:47 <Raystm2> if I want to see any quicktime content I have to use IE. Otherwise i'd much rather be in Firefox.
18:12:56 <crc> that's odd
18:13:15 <crc> the quicktime plugins work for me in opera
18:13:31 <crc> I seldom use firefox, so I can't answer for it :)
18:13:44 * Raystm2 hasn't tried opera yet.
18:13:47 <Raystm2> ya
18:13:57 <Raystm2> I spent much of the night looking over SDL.
18:14:12 <Raystm2> Also looking at USB boot.
18:14:48 <Raystm2> I ended up learning how to make all kinds of media boot the machine. 
18:16:03 <Raystm2> I'm gonna see if I can get one of these pentiums to boot from my camera.
18:17:23 <Raystm2> Up shot is: if you have a machine that will allow cdrom-boot, then you can make an image on memstick that will boot just like the cdrom. Baring that, you can put a floppy booter in there.
18:19:17 <Raystm2> I saw a product on the web last night that allowed you to take your data and apps everywhere and just hook into a machine-reboot it, and you come out of hybernation right where you left off.
18:19:33 <Raystm2> 1 minute uptime 20 seconds hibernation time.
18:21:06 <Raystm2> All that I was reading last night made me think that it might be cool to make a colorforth on top of toka and have it boot from all boot types: HDD, CDROM, FD, WEB, USB, any others?
18:21:12 <Raystm2> This should be quite portable.
18:21:33 <Raystm2> All that started because I was weighing DJGPP.
18:21:50 <Raystm2> I don't Know how well it's gonna work. 
18:22:44 <Raystm2> It will require using a special Win32 application specific to the job. 
18:23:20 <Raystm2> Cygwin would be slower. The DJGPP toolset is better built together then the Cygwin MingW stuff.
18:23:38 <Raystm2> At least for windows it is.
18:24:39 <Raystm2> AND it's the same compilers, make files, on and on...
18:25:34 <Raystm2> Cygwin or MingW would require a massive Dll be distributed with Toka.
18:25:41 <Raystm2> for windows that is.
18:25:51 <Raystm2> Not sure how that compares yet in DjGPP.
18:39:14 <crc> mingw doesn't require a dll
18:39:26 <crc> cygwin does, at least under normal circumstances
18:40:55 <Raystm2> Oh that's correct. 
18:41:04 <Raystm2> I remember. 
18:41:39 <Raystm2> I got off on the bootable removable ramdrive idea again.
18:42:49 <Raystm2> Toka would be cool there. I saw a game environ that was really a tiny linux and the game on a bootable cdrom. Your savegame file would have to go on floppy. 
18:42:59 <Raystm2> Toka could replace the game.
18:43:09 <Raystm2> Should work on a memchip
18:43:27 <Raystm2> Walk up to any computer an Toka-own it!
18:43:45 <Raystm2> Practically. anyway.
18:44:58 <Raystm2> A usb boot will take either a cdrom image or a floppy image AND there is even a way to usb boot like a HDD. 
18:45:35 <Raystm2> You would, in effect, be C:\
18:45:58 <Raystm2> native drive letters would be shifted.
18:46:06 <crc> I have no drive letters :)
18:46:08 <Raystm2> But you could access them. :)
18:46:20 <Raystm2> You have fd0 as the floppy, yes?
18:46:29 <Raystm2> and hd0 main drive?
18:46:30 <crc> mounted under /mnt/floppy
18:46:56 <crc> sda1
18:47:01 <Raystm2> I see, ya. All devices are mounted.
18:47:04 <crc> (SATA drives in this system)
18:47:10 <Raystm2> in the mnt/ folder.
18:47:20 <Raystm2> I see. cool.
18:47:36 <crc> not all. /mnt is for temporary mounts (floppies, ipod, usb devices, cd's, dvd's)
18:47:57 <Raystm2> Bootable paripherals.
18:47:59 <crc> my hard disk partitions get permanent mount points
18:48:08 <Raystm2> Okay. 
18:48:11 <Raystm2> I get that.
18:49:45 <Raystm2> there even looks like a cd or a memstick could hold several versions of bootable image, and that a boot loader can be the first thing run. 
18:49:54 <Raystm2> You did that with grub, no?
18:50:11 <crc> yes
18:50:17 <Raystm2> Yes.
18:51:04 <Raystm2> no. yessss! cool. ColorForth could use a smart way to test devices and build it's peices, much like a debian linux port.
18:52:40 <Raystm2> while running bios commanded devices, say in real mode, have a poll determine devices, build the new makefile, create the image in memory, execute it, and save it to either usb, hdd, or floppy from the image. 
18:53:05 <Raystm2> there's a fresh boot in there some where...
18:54:22 <Raystm2> A cd like that, or a keyChipmemStick like that could be very cool for being a basis for all kinds of toy os.
18:54:36 <Raystm2> Hmm,
18:55:07 <Raystm2> I mean, arn't debian and others aleady doing that?
18:55:21 <Raystm2> Lift that code and make it your own.
18:55:53 <Raystm2> heck you could even have an online database in svn to keep things current.
18:56:32 <Raystm2> a memchip with enouph software to get you online to the polling software that builds your toy os.
18:56:50 <Raystm2> feeds it back to your chip.
18:56:54 <Raystm2> Not online. 
18:57:06 <Raystm2> Build one online and move it off line.
19:02:37 <Raystm2> crc: Toka is a shell replacement?
19:03:24 <crc> you can do shell scripts in it, but it doesn't have pipes, etc for passing I/O between processes
19:04:07 <crc> there's a shell library that provides support for more functionality, including forking, executing subprocesses, removing files/directories, etc
19:10:40 <Raystm2> cool. 
19:10:51 <Raystm2> Quite expressive.
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