00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.12.20
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06:15:37 <Ray_work> Good morning. I love my birthday girl! Happy birthday Nanette!
06:57:16 <absentia> who is nanette? sounds like a pet name for a nano-bot :-)
07:01:22 <Ray_work> hehe. Ya, my wife might could be considered a nano-bot. She's tiny enough. :)
07:02:18 <Ray_work> She will usually re-nick my Raystm2 account as nanstm. 
07:03:01 <Ray_work> She's gotten to know several of my chat-buds here over the years.
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14:09:27 <Cheery> crc, have you ever thought about leaving away the c! w!, etc?
14:09:46 <Quartus> leaving away?
14:10:01 <Cheery> yes, dropping them from language.
14:10:09 <Quartus> why would he want to do that?
14:10:52 <Cheery> for driving people to write code which is easy to handle.
14:11:25 <Quartus> FFI commonly requires specific-width access.
14:11:42 <Cheery> hmm. your right. :(
14:12:12 <Quartus> I'm not clear on how removing functionality drives people to write code that's easy to handle.
14:13:43 <Cheery> well, I've ended up using those c! w! -things lot and hated it afterwards.
14:13:59 <Quartus> Perhaps you need to improve your encapsulation and abstraction.
14:14:49 <Cheery> *sigh*. maybe. :/
14:15:35 <Cheery> but now I improve my perception and go to sleep. ;)
14:15:42 <Quartus> c! and c@ are the right thing to use when dealing with chars and strings.  I only use w! and w@ when dealing with structs and ffi.
14:17:01 <Cheery> well, you could use ! and @ in those too if you'd use UTF-32
14:17:15 <Cheery> whether it'd be overkill or not... :) I don't know for sure.
14:17:27 <Quartus> In which case a char would be cell-wide, and c@ and @ and c! and ! would be synonymous.
14:17:41 <Quartus> I would still use c@ and c! to indicate the operation type.
14:18:02 <Quartus> There is also a gain in portability for systems with differing char widths.
14:18:27 <Cheery> why don't you have c+ or c- there then too?
14:18:42 <Quartus> char+ is there.
14:19:08 <Cheery> not in retroforth.
14:19:20 <Cheery> not at least in rxforth where I just tested.
14:19:21 <Quartus> Trivially defined, should you need it.
14:20:05 <Quartus> The standard has char+        and char- is       : char-  [ -1 chars ] literal - ;
14:20:35 <Quartus> oops, 1 not -1
14:20:43 <Quartus> : char-  1 chars - ;      
14:21:00 <Cheery> interesting.
14:22:02 <Cheery> Quartus: I wonder if in forth I would have use from type inference.
14:22:06 <Quartus> So in rf,     : char+  1 chars + ;  : char-  1 chars - ;      It's x86-specific, though, so you could just    ' 1- alias char-  ' 1+ alias char+  
14:22:16 <Quartus> type inference?
14:22:49 <Cheery> yes, like strong static typing with inference.
14:23:05 <Quartus> Forth is typeless, so you'd be talking about a different kind of animal.
14:23:54 <Cheery> yep.
14:24:17 <Cheery> I saw the idea used in ocaml, and wonder whether similar could be done on forth -style syntax without doing serious limitations.
14:24:17 <Quartus> There have been some systems written that way.
14:24:42 <Quartus> I find them uninteresting, but they exist.
14:24:54 <Cheery> Why do you find them uninteresting?
14:25:10 <Quartus> I prefer Forth typeless.
14:25:15 <Cheery> why?
14:25:41 <Quartus> I don't find typing helps me in any regard.
14:26:02 <Cheery> I see. You breath stack items?
14:26:04 <Cheery> :)
14:26:17 <Quartus> A typed Forth still has a stack, or you're not talking about Forth in any way
14:27:32 <Cheery> yep, but if you end up messing up, you find it out sooner. that appears interesting for me.
14:27:46 <Cheery> thought such stuff makes it longer to compile. :(
14:28:03 <Quartus> Not just longer to compile, but slower to run.
14:28:08 <Cheery> and you have only that benefit and only if you make the whole rest of that beast called 'type'.
14:30:04 <Cheery> gah, I go to sleep before it's morning.
14:30:09 <Quartus> :)
14:30:15 <Cheery> good night Quartus. :)
14:30:20 <Quartus> ciao!
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15:09:36 <virl> ping
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15:18:37 <absentia> p0ng
15:25:29 <virl> well, retro is ideal for coding primitivs
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20:17:15 <absentia> p
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