00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.12.13 01:10:59 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:11:21 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 01:56:54 --- quit: crc (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:34:40 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 03:01:01 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-151-197-233-220.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #retro 03:01:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 04:59:48 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #retro 05:45:48 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #retro 06:28:03 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #retro 06:28:38 Good morning, happy peoples. :) 06:32:58 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 06:45:51 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #retro 07:14:21 morning all 07:15:02 morning 07:19:10 hello thinfu. 07:19:15 hi tathi :) 07:19:47 Ray_work: don't be greedy, I already said hi to you ;) 07:22:29 I see, one to a customer. Ya, I'm a glutton for such. 07:23:28 I suppose I did that for thinfu's benefit, or my percieved need to do it for thinfu's benefit so that anyone lurking or otherwise wouldn't think I was just being an ass to you. :) 07:24:06 heh 07:24:09 damned lurkers 07:24:12 controlling your thoughts! 07:24:56 I'm a tad psychotic. 07:25:34 uh oh 07:26:22 hi Ray 07:26:34 * tathi tries to keep on the good side of psychotics when it's that easy :P 07:28:55 heh 07:32:46 man ebay rocks! 07:33:04 just making my 3rd purchase on ebay 07:34:01 what are you buying? 07:34:51 molasses 07:35:02 getting it sent to my grandma 07:35:24 she likes to make gingerbread cookies around this time, but last year i remember her saying she wasn't happy with the molasses at the store 07:35:52 so I'm just getting some other random molasses sent to her, maybe she'll like that.. 07:37:05 lol 07:37:11 the shipping cost is ridiculous tho 07:37:12 oh well 07:37:16 hehe 07:37:54 this is the first time that i've really had money to spend 07:38:18 been poor or in debt the last few years, and before that i was a student.. 07:38:44 i had this habit of quitting my job and living off my savings & credit card for several months at a time 07:39:07 and then going to get a job when i no longer had any credit/money .. 07:41:08 i think i understand why a lot of self-made millionaires were poor at one time 07:41:25 because poor trains you to not spend money 07:41:29 being poor* 07:41:43 and then when you do get money you feel uncomfortable spending much 07:43:53 i basically can save about 75% of my earnings.. and i'm pretty low on the earning scale 07:47:55 heh. yeah, that's pretty much what I've done since I was in college. :) 07:48:17 well, sans credit cards. 08:01:49 I destroyed my credit when I was sued over custody of my wifes first child on laywers fees. So, cash for everything, and that habit that you mentioned of not spending cuz ya got in the habit of not spending. 08:02:09 But there is a caveat. 08:02:43 You get so good at saving money that you don't invest in those things that give other people the impression that you have money and deserve more. 08:03:44 I suppose that means mostly clothes, cars, house, and especially entertainment. 08:04:35 Entertaining others is about as good as golf for making it in this world. 08:05:00 Networking, I suppose. 08:07:02 I wish I could save more. I save atleast 10% of every check and all of the money that I don't spend out of my allowance, and yet I don't have savings enough to matter. 08:07:04 life. 08:07:11 It got in the way of my plans. 08:07:51 As young as y'all are... 08:08:53 even if you just save 2000 dollars a year for 6 years straight in a lousy bank account, your age is your advantage and in 30-35 years you can have millions save, not adding another dime after the first 6 years. 08:10:33 re 08:10:54 life sucks 08:10:58 and then you're billed for it 08:16:24 Ray_work: true true 08:17:23 absentia and then you die and your kids are billed for it. 08:17:41 oh and HI :) 08:19:52 hmm, i think golf or entertaining others as a key to wealth really depends on what you're doing 08:24:28 * absentia is doing web 2.0! 08:24:30 * absentia cheers 08:28:09 web 2.0? the funky we-don't-know-what-web-2.0-really-is-thing? 08:30:19 yup 08:30:24 which means it should makemillions 08:31:40 company has grown from 3 people last year to 38 now... it's all crazy. 08:31:43 ah. the good old, the one with the most pictures and diagrams wins 08:32:00 +strategy 08:32:05 most acronyms in a presentation 08:32:58 and web2.0 has increased those acronyms, god bless acronyms! 08:33:49 technical blurb is the best for us ... is the best for us .. it makes us richer, because the dumb need us ... they need us .. they need us 08:35:59 absentia: i'm a ruby on rails developer.. web 2.0 all the way baby 08:36:01 dunno 08:36:06 I'm along for the ride now. 08:36:34 ya, we should have gone rails... I've learned that I made a mistake by making a totally flexible framework 08:36:41 you need to protect your systems from developers :-< 08:37:04 heh 08:38:29 wrote 70,000 lines of php 08:38:38 ugh 08:38:49 and now realize I could have written about 1/5 of that. 08:39:12 I hope I like forth better than php 08:39:23 i'm so glad i was able to skip php and go straight to ruby 08:39:39 i considered learning php for a long time but i knew i would hate it ;) 08:40:00 yup 08:40:19 why not use forth for web pages? 08:40:27 generation... 08:41:08 i find forth is very slow to code in, because its so low level.. 08:41:21 you know you've been working too hard when you can run a command or click and move your mouse to the point where the window is GOING to appear... right above the button you need to click 08:41:38 in gnometerm, right click (move mouse to where "paste" will be) .. wait.. wait for window to appear.. ah, there it is, click. 08:41:54 heh 08:42:09 thinfu: ya, that is my concern. I need to find if there are any code/lib repositories for rf 08:42:12 shift-ins = paste 08:42:29 yup 08:44:00 forth is low level, it appears to be stuck in the low level, it has potential to be high level, but there's been no real movement towards the high level in the last 36 years of forth.. 08:44:22 I have some things that I want to do that are low level... so that's why I"m investigating forth. 08:44:32 well, except those forth inspired things like factor 08:44:37 but I may end up splitting my time between forth and c++ 08:45:52 but first, what do we need for webforth? well, cgi is one point, but that's old and slow.. I think an apache module for forth should be developed. 08:46:08 yup 08:46:17 ruby on rails is cgi 08:46:20 cgi is not a big deal 08:46:28 well, its got fcgi support which helps 08:46:49 nothing wrong with doing cgi, its not really a bottleneck 08:47:02 go ahead and make webforth on cgi alone.. 08:47:10 later on make a mod_forth or whatever 08:47:12 cgi, is something nobody really wants when he developes _real_ sites which are accessed everyday again again and again. 08:47:34 there's been movement away from apache to faster webservers 08:47:39 like lighttpd or nginx 08:47:50 so mod_forth or whatever is not that important 08:47:56 good then another module, for another webserver. 08:47:59 actually a forth webserver would be best 08:48:05 ah, just use fastcgi 08:48:09 my point is to be fast. 08:48:23 is there a forth webserver anywhere? 08:48:30 actually ruby on rails these days is moving over to using a ruby webserver called 'mongrel' 08:48:42 and basically you use a proxy load balancer 08:48:50 gforth has a webserver, but I haven't got it yet to run. 08:48:57 between the fast static web server like apache/lighttpd/nginx, and the ruby webserver 08:49:07 that's the best way to do things for forth 08:49:20 apache is dead, forget about mod_forth 08:49:29 why is apache dead? 08:49:40 did I miss some news? 08:49:49 its dying 08:49:56 its too slow, it uses too much memory 08:50:08 people are jumping ship and switching to faster webservers 08:50:49 oh, that's sad. 08:51:28 where is the problem? is it's module architecture or internal design issues, which slow it down? 08:51:53 * virl basically likes apache 08:56:11 yaws, seems to be a fast webserver. 08:56:42 hmm, perhaps apache slowness comes from it's multi-purpose character. 08:56:58 yeah 08:58:07 so, a forth especially for the purpose of dynamic content generation, should be raise forths star. 08:58:14 -be 08:58:16 sry 08:59:22 i think that perhaps forth should be redesigned from the ground, specifically the naming of words, and the syntax of how each word are used.. to make something more human friendly 08:59:57 you mean that forth, not forth generally. 09:00:10 right 09:00:19 running gag: when you know one forth, you know one forth, dude. 09:00:38 a specific forth implementation that becomes the new standard 09:00:54 ugh.. 09:01:27 * virl seas quartus saying that the current ANS is the only REAL standard and anything else is a waste of time.. 09:01:38 seas = sees 09:03:37 and I don't know if I should start this 'webforth' project or continuing xell, which leads to something similiar. difficult decision. 09:04:11 eh? your xell project is for the web? 09:05:09 no, it's not specific for web, but I could implement a web specific implementation. 09:06:09 * virl asks himself if he should throw it's 5 try away and begin from scratch again. 09:09:37 what is xell? how far along is it? 09:12:56 xell is a forth inspired bytecode vm architecture, which sees the world as streams -> one input stream of bytecodes -> output stream to another xell vm(remote control)(for example) 09:14:20 things which are specific to a xell implementation is managed in so called 'profiles' that means for example graphics, sound, file support, block support and so on. 09:16:51 and when such a profile doesn't exist on a xell system, then it doesn't execute one function which is a part of such a profile 09:17:36 okay 09:17:43 whats the goal of xell? 09:18:53 and how far am I with it? well, I have written some docs and implemented 3-5 versions of my portable reference implementation which should build platform specific versions of xell -> not far. 09:19:57 the goal of xell was for games and other software for which I assume java/mono/co as disgusting. 09:20:52 hmm 09:21:16 well xell sounds interesting, but its got far more potential than just for games etc 09:21:21 pick bigger goals ;) 09:22:16 yes, I know. ok, then again from scratch. it can only getting better.. 09:23:22 I think this time I use in my reference implementation switched threading. 09:23:36 yeah but if you keep restarting from scratch it won't get very far along.. 09:24:06 I know that too ;-) 09:25:19 maybe try to figure out the xell api and then just code from both ends towards that api, the implementation as well as the programs that are built on xell.. 09:25:47 evolve the api with some evolutionary computation ;) 09:28:28 trial & error = inefficient 09:39:44 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro 10:00:11 anyone know the : def of 2/ ? 10:00:20 The Standard definition? 10:00:24 ya 10:00:29 my rf says 2/ not found 10:00:42 Try the Standard layer for rf, there's a link on the main page. 10:01:10 ../extensions/ans-compat:: 2/ dup 1 rshift swap highbit and or ; 10:01:12 got it 10:01:14 It's a signed-propogating right-shift. 10:02:12 That definition will only work in the larger context of the whole layer. You can work out a version in the rf-dialect. 10:02:23 hmm, thats strange, rf used to have 2/ 10:02:26 ya, I don't have rshift 10:02:27 it was defined by << 10:02:31 or highbit 10:02:34 can't find defs for those. 10:02:42 absentia: look at << 10:02:46 you'll see highbit is in the ans layer. In rf, rshift is >> 10:02:51 oh 10:02:54 look at >> 10:03:15 ' >> alias rshift 10:03:28 If you want an rf-only definition, $8000 constant highbit (I think) 10:03:46 well, just tryign to run an example of code from thinking in forth 10:03:47 I'll give up 10:03:51 Quartus: i'm a little confused by your 2/ definition, 2/ is nothing more than a shift, nothing else.. 10:03:57 : PEOPLE>PATHS ( #people -- #paths ) dup 1- * 2/ ; 10:03:58 : PEOPLE ( #people) 10:03:58 ." = " PEOPLE>PATHS . ." PATHS " ; 10:03:59 Sorry -- $80000000 10:03:59 :-< 10:04:17 absentia: ewww, caps? :P 10:04:22 absentia, if you want to run the stuff in Thinking Forth, get GForth; you'll have a much better time of it. rf has different names for a bunch o' things. 10:04:25 copied from book 10:04:30 ah 10:04:31 DUP was in caps... I notice that forth is case sensitive 10:04:33 thinfu, 2/ is not simply a shift; it retains the sign. 10:04:50 absentia, most Forth systems are not case-sensitive. rf is. 10:04:53 GForth isn't. 10:04:58 it's not important -- I just wanted to play with it. 10:05:25 I'llmake a decision 'bout forth when i'm done with thhis book and then scanning the rf site. 10:05:37 ok, time for lunch! 10:05:42 thanks. 10:05:47 yeah definitely use gforth if you're following the book etc 10:05:56 There's a link in the /topic at #forth. 10:05:57 I'll get that after lunch. 10:06:13 do we have a case-insensitivity module for retro? 10:06:19 shouldn't be that hard to make 10:06:24 My ANS layer has one. 10:06:37 cool 10:06:40 after a fashion, at any rate. The logic is explained in there. 10:08:23 If the original casing isn't found, a forced-lowercase version is sought. 10:09:15 solution to case-sensitivity - type lowercase at all times 10:09:37 well, its not a bad idea to be case-sensitive because then you can use capitals to indicate whether something is a variable or whatever 10:09:57 thinfu, I think that's a really bad way to indicate anything at all. 10:10:30 well in lots of languages they use capitalization to indicate if its a variable or constant, etc 10:10:41 Yes, they do. I still think it's a bad idea. 10:11:01 well how do you indicate that your variables are variables? or constants? 10:12:27 prefix with v_ and c_? 10:12:43 I don't use orthographic modifiers of any sort; I think that's just as bad. 10:13:40 I minimize the use of variables, and provide words to abstract access to any particular data. Named constants are self-descriptive, but are also usually local to a specific module, so it's not hard to find the associated definition. 10:15:30 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.2) joined #retro 10:15:30 Quartus: what apps have you coded in forth? 10:15:37 Quartus_: what apps have you coded in forth? 10:16:00 You can see a few examples at quartus.net. 10:16:18 ok, let's see.. 10:17:16 v_ and c_ remind me of Hungarian notation, which even the C camp recognizes is a bad idea. ADTs should be Abstract, that's what the A is for -- to re-specify the type in the name goes the other direction. :) 10:18:04 How about you, thinfu? 10:19:51 if you're making your living off your website you might want to update it, make it nicer, clicking the dropdown and then clicking the go button is redundant.. and hides too much of the sites structure 10:19:54 well, he codes in ruby, so perhaps he likes the SmalltalkStyle 10:20:34 i've pretty much only done an irc client & multi-user echo server in forth 10:21:00 thinfu, how do you write your code in ruby? 10:21:14 virl: how do you mean 10:22:10 thinfu, I may redo the site at some point soon. Presently it showcases one flagship app and a couple of ancillary ones. 10:22:11 for example: class names: SwatchWidget, variables: iterator, constants: NO_CHANGE 10:22:17 thinfu: you need the go button for browsers that don't support javascript 10:22:28 * tathi hates it when people leave out submit buttons 10:22:38 yes, that choice was deliberate. 10:22:41 --- join: swalters (n=swalters@169.139.217.100) joined #retro 10:22:49 well then don't have a dropdown 10:22:57 plain links would've been better in that case 10:23:02 --- part: swalters left #retro 10:23:15 thinfu, for example: class names: SwatchWidget, variables: iterator, constants: NO_CHANGE 10:23:28 virl: yeah, thats how i code 10:23:51 me too, makes code self explaining. 10:24:03 ruby forces the capitalization on you though, doesn't it? 10:24:25 ehm, no, not that I know.. 10:25:23 thinfu, I get equal amounts of praise and condemnation for the design -- I figure I'm breaking even. :) 10:28:00 well, it forces some things. 10:28:09 Class names and constants must start with a capital letter 10:28:25 Quartus_: well my perspective is that the dropdown could be replaced with just a list of links, which i think would be more usable, and it would show the true size of your site. i prefer plain sites too 10:30:09 none of the approaches I tried to lists of links suited me as well as the dropdown did, but I'll fiddle a bit and see what I come up with. 10:31:53 my customers are definitely not make-or-break based on web design, as long as they can get around. 10:36:36 actually they might be -- if I went to a picture of a zen garden with musical mouse roll-overs, I think they'd flee in droves :) 10:38:19 the easier you make it for them to find what they want and to buy it, the better ;) 10:38:47 always true. 10:42:32 the 'hello world' animation is popular. 10:45:12 are you really making your living off your site? or is it supplemental income? 10:45:53 one of the ways, at any rate. 10:46:23 it accounts for a not-inconsequential part of my living. 10:47:57 --- part: thinfu left #retro 10:48:28 though it's not the site that earns the income, it's the products :) 10:57:59 --- join: snoopy_1711 (n=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-124-038.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 12:59:04 --- log: started retro/06.12.13 12:59:04 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #retro 12:59:04 --- topic: 'RetroForth | Pastebin @ http://retroforth.net/paste | The wiki & paste bin editing key is 'despair'' 12:59:04 --- topic: set by crc on [Thu Dec 07 14:14:56 2006] 12:59:04 --- names: list (clog Snoopy42 Quartus_ neceve tathi Ray_work timlarson_ virl @crc Quartus nanstm absentia nighty timlarson @ChanServ lukeparrish Shain) 13:03:59 --- join: neceve_ (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro 13:06:16 wgat's gforth's homepage? 13:08:19 there's a link to it in the topic at #forth 13:17:35 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:21:28 do you know rf's equiv to gforth's "see" ? 13:25:01 I'm not sure it has one 13:26:18 lookup seems to cause seg-fault :-) 13:26:58 well, rf doesn't have see 13:27:18 but's nice for learning forth, imho. 13:28:13 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:31:18 * lukeparrish uses grep :) 13:35:55 I run a disassembler under the ans layer, it does a rough 'see' 13:36:48 good lord gforth has a lot of words 13:37:15 what I want to see is when I do 13:37:25 : blah dup * ; 13:37:59 I want to "see blah" and get "dup *" 13:39:47 gforth is a good choice for that. 13:40:02 wel, it does it for my routines... which is awesome -- but the builtins appears to be asm 13:40:14 it does a usually pretty good reconstruction. 13:40:29 yes, the source for those are in subdirectories. 13:40:44 I'll have to get a anual for gforth... this appears to be just what I'm looking for 13:41:01 although I'm dying to do "words | wc -l" 13:41:08 and /or "words | less" 13:41:08 :-) 13:52:05 --- join: Quartus___ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #retro 13:52:40 you can do gforth -e words bye | wc -l 13:53:19 and there's some module that paginates the display, if you're stuck somewhere without console scrollback. 13:53:37 you want quotes around 'words bye' 13:53:58 under win32 they're not needed 13:53:59 gforth -e words bye |& wc -c 13:53:59 12947 13:54:05 ah, ok. 13:54:14 wow 13:54:16 don't know about linux 13:54:17 --- quit: Quartus_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:54:19 that can't be right 13:54:20 wc -w 13:54:27 ya, 1535 13:54:28 that's better. 13:54:32 more than lisp! sheesh 13:54:52 no, most of those are factors that gforth doesn't hide. 13:55:06 on my box it throws a File I/O exception -- seems to think 'bye' is a filename. 13:55:07 ya, lots of close ones. I see that. 13:55:16 standard forth, complete, is ~380 13:55:17 same here.. but it does words 13:55:33 also gforth generally has all the possible comparison operators and such 13:55:33 I could also do it without bye.. and then ^D heheh. 13:56:20 WORDS is fairly useless. Beginners run it once or twice. After that it really doesn't come into play. 13:57:14 you can set up to compile into an empty wordlist, if you wish. Not hard. 13:58:29 get-order wordlist swap 1+ set-order definitions 13:58:49 should do it. I'm not at a console. 14:01:59 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-62-12.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 14:16:29 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:37:56 what's a good/great online/free intro/tutorial on forth? 14:38:19 kind would like to figure out what "@" does :-) seems like it gets the address of something (and puts it on the stack) 14:41:13 It's 'fetch', and it retrieves the cell value from the address on the stack. 14:41:52 pelc has a free book at mpeforth.com, haven't read it through but it looks pretty good. 14:42:07 thanks 14:42:39 the counterpart to @ is ! (Store) 14:43:01 variable x 23 x ! x @ . -> 23 14:43:24 ah, starting forth.. is also online 14:43:25 * absentia snarfs. 14:43:55 --- quit: Ray_work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:44:08 yes, there's an ANS version of starting forth, also in the topic at #forth. 14:45:16 hmm. ok, the whole thing isn't in a pdf format -- i've hit that page before.. I'll hav eto go backto it to finish. I think I got sidetracked with thinking in forth 14:45:43 lots of good urls there 14:45:43 the standard is available, too. 14:46:41 it was sad -- I bought a hard copy of the c++ standard... I forget how many pages it is... 900? ... read the thing through .. sat on ##C++ .. and was answering questions about c++ (apparently correct answers) -- without ever having even written a program. that language is too large. 14:48:28 crap 14:48:38 trying to dl the forth book crashed my firefox and I lost 15 tabs. 14:49:33 neat 14:49:36 crashed firefox again 14:50:36 crashed epiphany too 15:02:49 good evening 15:08:40 hi 15:12:01 hi 15:14:05 hi crc 15:35:13 --- quit: neceve_ ("Leaving") 15:46:34 ans forth is also relative complex 15:49:31 nice. on page 284 of this book, I finally found out what @ stads for :-) 15:50:37 and the opposit of it is ! 15:51:52 I got the ! part. 15:57:06 absentia: [17:35] It's 'fetch', and it retrieves the cell value from the address on the stack. 16:09:13 btw. why was @ choosen for fetch? or ! for store? 16:11:53 inherited from bcpl, I believe. 16:12:52 so martin richards would be the one to ask. 16:22:07 I suspect it was simply an available symbol, much as & is used in C for the 'address-of' operator. 16:31:27 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend") 16:33:20 so glad to be of help. 16:47:45 looks like they were prefix characters in BCPL 16:47:54 so it would make sense if they just picked whatever was available 16:47:54 They were. 16:48:47 Specifically, in the hardware syntax for (at least) the Burroughs 5500 implementation of BCPL, which I know Moore would have been quite familiar with. 18:13:37 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:43:00 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 20:15:43 re 20:16:28 Hi. 20:17:17 time to read starting forth 20:28:46 : e 1 + dup . e ; redefined e ok 20:28:57 that doesn' do what I thougt it would. 20:32:02 and that was? 20:32:59 recursive 20:33:12 Is this from an example in the book? 20:33:22 no 20:33:36 You realize if that did recurse, it would use up stack until it crashed. 20:33:49 yes 20:33:52 I just tried 20:34:00 : e 1 + dup . recurse ; 20:34:06 counded to 12006 and crashed 20:34:09 Right. 20:34:09 not too impressive. 20:34:25 says invalid memory address 20:34:43 not too impressive? What do you expect to happen? 20:34:57 'core dump' would be more impressive to you? 20:35:01 why doesn't it run forever? 20:35:13 stack isn't growing 20:35:20 Yes, it is. The return stack. 20:35:36 Recursion is a nesting operation. 20:35:37 return stack can only have 12000 returns? 20:35:58 Depends on how large it is, but that sounds entirely reasonable. 20:36:03 k 20:36:20 If you simply want continous looping, recursion is the wrong tool. 20:36:26 ya 20:36:45 You understand, 12000 returns is a nesting depth of 12000, which is huge. 20:36:56 :-) 20:37:24 Do you program in any other programming languages? 20:37:35 ya 20:40:30 lesson 1 from proper development: never tell your ideas to retards if they are not complete. 20:40:55 You can specify the desired return stack size when starting gforth, if you really need some colossal size for it. 20:41:16 naw, just playing with forth loops 20:41:32 BEGIN/AGAIN is for continuous loops. 20:41:37 ok 20:41:46 what happened, cheery? 20:42:01 : e begin 1 + dup . again ; redefined e ok 20:42:09 better 20:42:37 Be sure to pass e a value on the stack, as in 0 e 20:43:06 yup 20:43:38 Quartus: well, you feel like an idiot yourself when you try to explain an ingenious idea somewhere people in there can't just simply grasp it. 20:43:56 such as ? 20:44:33 a few possibilities cheery -- 1) it's not ingenious; 2) you're not explaining it sufficiently well 3) it's ingenious, and you're explaining it well, but they're not bright enough to grasp it. 20:46:02 talk about doing virtual machines with game devs. Or talking about alternative ways to create adaptable graphics with fractals and bit of math (both 2D and 3D). 20:47:06 There are two kinds of people who talk about half-formed ideas -- most of them are fools, and it's impossible to identify the few who aren't, until they get their idea fully-formed. 20:47:49 So you can expect that kind of reaction. 20:48:33 <-- fool 20:48:56 Quartus: but how web 2.0 can get flight then? 20:49:10 Cheery, in my opinion there is no such animal. 20:49:17 Remember what Carl Sagan said, "They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." 20:49:44 I do not understand. 20:50:05 (The Carl Sagan's sentence) 20:50:27 It means not everyone who is misunderstood is actually brilliant. If you want people to evaluate your ideas, the ideas have to be in good enough shape for that to happen. 20:51:36 ah. But when they are at that good shape, I rather.... damn. Thank you. 20:51:37 as for "Web 2.0", it's a buzzword without any meaningful definition, which is a sure sign of nonsense. 20:52:04 That means my ideas need refining rather than I need to blame others when they do not work. 20:52:27 Probably the engery is better spent in that directoin. 20:53:35 * absentia is doin' web 2.0 ... 20:53:43 It also means that people laugh at things sometimes for the wrong reasons, but sometimes for the right ones. :) 20:54:38 The full quote: "But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." 20:54:40 yep, but who should call them stupid because of that? 20:56:42 There's no shortage of actual stupid, to be sure. 20:57:32 well, there you are in right. :> So it does not really matter whether I would call everyone stupid (including myself). 20:57:53 stupid is very much relative. 20:58:02 Have you read about that craigslist -thing? 20:58:07 what thing is that? 20:58:26 wait, I search my page history. 20:58:52 http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2006/12/08/craigslist-meets-the-capitalists/?&ex=1166504400&en=89c1ba75fe6be330&ei=5070&emc=eta1 20:59:09 oh, I did hear some mumbling about how craigslist should go commercial. 20:59:48