00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.12.11
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01:56:59 <crc> good morning
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06:12:08 <Ray_work> Good morning.
06:12:15 <Ray_work> Your up early anymore, crc.
06:12:17 <Ray_work> :)
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08:20:20 <futhin> yeah crc is getting up crazy early, 3am my time..
08:20:38 <Ray_work> me too, but I'm not telling everybody. :)
08:20:48 <futhin> did he suddenly move to paris? ;P
08:21:13 <Ray_work> :)
08:21:46 <Ray_work> No but it might have to do with the responcibility of getting everybody up and going before work.
08:24:13 <futhin> bah to responsibility..  we're hackers!
08:24:22 <Ray_work> hack responsibility!
08:25:08 <futhin> hack the fabric of reality!
08:26:54 <futhin> we might be able to, the work on Loop Quantum Gravity theory is interesting, it suggests that time is also discrete like matter is, i.e. the smallest unit of matter is a quantum, can't break it down further
08:27:31 <futhin> and furthermore it suggests taht the space-time continuum has a geometry at the smallest level
08:28:19 <Ray_work> yummy, i love that stuff.
08:28:46 <futhin> where each unit of time is basically a moment of change in the geometry
08:29:48 <futhin> and a hot greek canadian woman is doing some major work on this ;)
08:35:01 <Ray_work> oh sure, that's making sence to me.
08:35:12 <Ray_work> timlarson would be interested...
08:36:17 <Ray_work> greek or geek? or greekgeek?
08:37:13 <futhin> well just think of space-time geometry as like a bunch of lines that are interconnected..  so when time advances by a unit, there's a propagation of changes in the configuration
08:38:09 <Ray_work> instantly across the entire region ( universe even) or starting from a point and radiating out?
08:38:11 <timlarson_> so the universe is a big vcs?
08:38:16 <futhin> not instantly
08:38:23 <futhin> just one unit of change
08:38:35 <Ray_work> oh sure, communicated at the speed of light maybe?
08:38:46 <Ray_work> maybe that's the light limit?
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08:39:14 <lukeparrish> time itself is limited to the speed of light?
08:39:56 <futhin> time has no speed
08:40:16 <lukeparrish> whew, didn't want to have to calculate that one :P
08:40:43 <futhin> Ray_work: it makes sense that the speed of light is limited to the speed of propagation of the space-time geometry 
08:40:52 <futhin> max speed anyways
08:41:03 <futhin> light is slower in water, so thats gotta be something else ;)
08:41:12 <Ray_work> ya.
08:41:15 <Ray_work> hi lukeparrish.
08:41:25 <lukeparrish> hi guys
08:41:49 <Ray_work> time has no speed, but if your talking about propogation of an effect, that spells implied speed? no?
08:41:58 <Ray_work> you/r/re
08:42:20 <timlarson_> if the fundamental geometry is unstable (e.g. like in buckminster fuller's ideas of it) then there would be an inherent 'energy' in the fabric of space-time.
08:42:25 <timlarson_> hi lukeparrish :)
08:42:42 <futhin> well with LQG the smallest unit of time is a planck second
08:42:59 <Quartus> yes, in every cheezy time-travel movie, when the guy steps on a butterfly while hunting dinosaurs, the changes propogate slowly forward to the future, so the hero and his girl can run away from it.
08:43:07 <timlarson_> the smallest unit of area may not be square
08:43:26 <Ray_work> is that true for the smallest unit of anything or is the smallest unit of anything always compared to a Planck?
08:43:33 <futhin> but it would take many units of time for a change to propagate through the space-time geometry
08:44:15 <futhin> what i meant is one "flip" of a line could happen in 1 planck second
08:44:15 <Ray_work> Quartus: yikes Quartus I think I just sat thru that disaster the other day.
08:44:44 <timlarson_> that is the 'emulation frequency'?
08:44:45 <futhin> oh noes, you sat on a butterfly?
08:45:00 <Quartus> you know, these waves of time-change ripple over the movie, changing one thing at a time, and the hero has to hurry up and go back and rescue the butterfly.
08:45:02 <futhin> timlarson_: no idea of that
08:45:42 <Ray_work> ya. saw that. funny how the humans are only effected on the last change, always have current core in source...
08:45:54 <Quartus> it's convenient, and they always manage to save the day.
08:46:21 <timlarson_> of course, or there would be no movie makers (anthropic principle) ;)
08:46:27 <Quartus> Less Planck's constant than Sandy Frank's constant.
08:47:27 <futhin> http://www.angryflower.com/dating.gif
08:47:34 <futhin> references the LQG chick ;P
08:48:58 <futhin> the guy that does angryflower is from edmonton (2 hours north of me)..  exact same reaction as me..  string theory sucks! LQG for the win!
08:49:28 <Quartus> I don't know about hot, she kind of looks like my Aunt Lois: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/new/Images/KalamaraF.jpg
08:49:58 <futhin> the pictures of her in the sciam article (thru which i found out about LQG) are much more flattering
08:51:15 <Quartus> Shades of Celine Dion: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/new/KalamaraF.jpg
08:52:32 <Quartus> The only sci-am pic I can find: http://www.derekshapton.com/fotini.html
08:53:00 <futhin> http://www.nonduality.com/12713.jpg http://www.derekshapton.com/images/fotini.jpg   (altho the first pic was on sciam and much bigger..)
08:53:34 <futhin> Quartus: hmm, i didn't actually remember if that dekershapton one was actually in the article
08:53:48 <Quartus> Well 'hot' is different things to different folks, clearly.
08:54:12 <futhin> heh
08:54:29 <futhin> i don't really think she's hot except in the sciam pics ;P
08:54:55 <futhin> i'm a bit more lenient lookswise if i think she's super smart 
08:59:41 <timlarson_> are you familiar with Fuller's theory of waves passing through the space fabric as being space converting back and forth between being irregular tetrahedrons and irregular octahedrons?
09:00:43 <futhin> nope
09:00:46 <Quartus> Thankfully, no.
09:00:59 <futhin> thankfully?
09:01:00 <Quartus> But if he's selling any of his stash, let me know.
09:01:37 <futhin> okay so you're implying that fuller is a crackpot or something?
09:01:40 <Quartus> yes, thankfully -- the summary there sounds absolutely hilarious.
09:01:43 <timlarson_> he's dead, probably not directly selling anything
09:02:16 <futhin> timlarson_: i think by 'stash' quartus was refering to drugs
09:02:30 <timlarson_> quartus, any four points in a volume form an irregular tetrahedron (there are degenerate cases for roughly planes, lines, points
09:02:36 <timlarson_> I know
09:03:21 <timlarson_> the gaps between tetrahedrons in trying to fill all space happen to be octahedrons.
09:03:59 <timlarson_> it is not so silly as you may have thought
09:04:58 <Quartus> From a geometrical standpoint, how octahedrons and tetrahedrons fill a volume isn't silly.  "waves passing through space fabric as being space converting between being irregular tetrahedrons and irregular octahedrons" comes off as a giggle, though.
09:06:07 <futhin> Quartus: yeah but it might be applicable to the slit experiment
09:06:10 <futhin> SLIT!
09:06:13 <timlarson_> it turns out you can distort tetrahedrons to make them into octahedrons, and in doing so you inadvertently convert the space between them from octahedrons to tetrahedrons.
09:06:30 <Quartus> you know what they say.  When you're out of slits, you're out of pier.
09:06:37 <futhin> lol
09:06:58 <timlarson_> hence you have a roughly spherical wave propagating out.
09:07:28 <futhin> are there slits in a concrete pier ?
09:07:51 <timlarson_> (the further out the wave goes, the more closely it approximates spherical
09:07:51 <timlarson_> )
09:09:31 <Quartus> Looks like no, futhin
09:10:34 <futhin> ah you ran out and checked your pier? :P
09:10:45 <Quartus> Took a long walk.
09:13:37 <futhin> anyways, angryflower.com is the best! qwantz.com too!
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10:16:25 <thinfu> so who's here?
10:16:35 <thinfu> and what are you doing? :P
10:17:16 <Ray_work> hahahah when your out of slits ... hahahaha 
10:17:53 <Ray_work> rabbitwhite: 
10:18:13 <rabbitwhite> yes?
10:18:38 <Ray_work> wrong punctuation. message repeats correctly
10:18:45 <Ray_work> rabbitwhite! :)
10:19:09 <Ray_work> did I tell you I screwed up my latest cF work, royally?
10:19:18 <rabbitwhite> no, what were you working on?
10:19:30 <thinfu> royally? did you accidentally delete all your code?
10:19:46 <Ray_work> thinfu, might has well have. 
10:20:04 <thinfu> ouch, what happened?
10:20:11 <Ray_work> I noticed a lot of talk about literate programming lately, so I was adding comments inbetween words...
10:20:55 <Ray_work> when I added one two many words to a block in windows colorforth, which crashes the editor should you try to open that block. So...
10:21:40 <rabbitwhite> add a 0 cell to the end of the block
10:22:00 <Ray_work> Thougth i'd rip the last word from the block with a hex editor. Left the desk in the middle of the operation and somehow changed something near the begining of the file that threw off all of bytecode by some unknown amount.
10:22:01 <rabbitwhite> something like "0 x block 255 + !"
10:22:18 <Ray_work> ya I know. :(
10:22:20 <rabbitwhite> oh
10:22:33 <Ray_work> SO...
10:23:05 <Ray_work> I've found all of the programs in one form or another and i'm "putting them back" all the while i'm backing up nearly every change.
10:23:18 <Ray_work> Wishing it was more like Glypher in that respect.
10:23:51 <Quartus_> or more like an editor that didn't crash and take your entire filesystem with it!
10:25:12 <Ray_work> :)
10:25:19 <Quartus_> so tell me again what amazing ideas keep you using that house of cards? :)
10:25:46 <thinfu> Quartus: COLOR
10:25:56 <Ray_work> if it didn't do that we wouldn't know to fix it. <--- Laural to Hardy
10:26:38 <Ray_work> Quartus: making it work for one is an apeal. Also, It's very litterate. 
10:26:45 <Ray_work> In proper hands.
10:27:06 <Quartus_> there was this one time I was editing a text file and I made it one byte too long and the file wouldn't open... Oh wait, no, there wasn't. :)
10:27:58 <Ray_work> Quartus: I suppose you dont ever have a bug. ( not in release code, sure but this is unfinished code, so...)
10:29:06 <Ray_work> I just might be the first person this has happened to. But it's not the first time it has happend, hence the hexeditor idea. I've fixed this problem before and rather easily.
10:32:53 <Quartus_> that's not only a bug, but a bad design flaw.
10:35:30 <Ray_work> I suppose I keep comming back because it's one system I completely know.
10:39:05 <Ray_work> that and p' ' :)
10:39:48 <thinfu> what about retroforth, it loves you more
10:40:06 <Ray_work> It does, but it changes so often that I'm still a tad lost.
10:40:16 <thinfu> pff
10:40:25 <thinfu> i'm wayyyyy behind
10:40:35 <thinfu> i still think its 1997 and party like it!
10:40:40 <Ray_work> hehe :)
10:41:20 <Ray_work> AND retro is different enough from a standard forth, it took me quite a while to warm up to it.
10:43:05 <thinfu> hmm, the fact that it was non-standard was one of its main appeals to me
10:43:14 <thinfu> well, its standard forth anyways
10:43:21 <thinfu> ANS forth is non-standard
10:43:25 <Ray_work> Quartus: The point of my hobby is completely covered by colorForth. I wanted a system that would help me learn a computer from the wall plug to the keyboard and display, and I can track all that in colorforth, where, when I was learning forth, all the OTHER systems were either enormous or had other problems I didn't quite understand.
10:44:22 <thinfu> Ray_work: have you managed to connect to the internet in CF?
10:44:55 <Ray_work> not directly, but I have exchanged Color-mail with Tim Neitz using linux in the middle. 
10:45:22 <Ray_work> No reason it can't. Tim has done much of the code for that already.
10:45:52 <Quartus_> it'd be nice if, oh, the editor didn't eat your source, say.
10:46:10 <thinfu> Quartus: you already said that, stop hating on CF
10:46:18 <Ray_work> I say that is totally fixable with a limit.
10:46:44 <Ray_work> cursor can't pass last word on the display and just overwrites the last one, easy to add.
10:47:08 <Quartus_> I'm answering Ray. Coding is hard enough without the fundamental tools collapsing.
10:47:34 <Ray_work> Again, unfinished undisclosed bug. Fixable.
10:48:29 <Ray_work> In my colorforth editor written IN colorForth you can't go passed the end of the block and there is a cursor position displayed on the screen.
10:49:30 <Ray_work> When the editor is completely written in the bytecode, this and many other things become even easier to fix.
10:49:51 <Quartus_> but while repairing the damage, you said you've potentially lost a great deal more.  Collateral.
10:51:49 <virl> Ray_work, any interest in publishing a fixed version of colorforth? so that some parts of it's uglyness disapear?
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10:53:31 <Ray_work> Quartus: that is true. I did do that. I suppose I could still fix it in the editor, but I am actually going to redo it all.
10:53:41 <Ray_work> hex editor that is...
10:54:16 <Ray_work> virl, this is an experimental system. I only recently got a list of the concerns from people with real experiance.
10:54:16 <thinfu> main things i'd like from CF is full qwerty keyboard and internet access thru my 3-com ethernet card.. i understand both of these things have been done, am i right?
10:54:39 <Ray_work> RealTec I believe but yes.
10:55:01 <thinfu> hwo about the qwerty version?
10:55:17 <thinfu> i heard about it a long time ago but it that image file disappeared i think?
10:56:11 <Ray_work> Easy enough to rip the keyboard driver from Windows colorForth and fit it into the native, I suppose... Never looked into it. I personally like Chvorak.
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10:58:22 <Ray_work> most colorForth applications have a relevent display and an interface with the keyboard -- which is customizable.
10:58:23 <thinfu> CF's editor is too modal
10:58:34 <Ray_work> You could have any keyboard you want for an interface.
10:58:58 <Ray_work> thinfu: I guess you are right, each color being a mode...
11:00:26 <Ray_work> but _too_ modal, I don't know how you do it otherwise. Maybe more like Glypher or Enth/Flux, the latter being a system designed on an early description of colorforth. Back then you used the function keys to put a color space before the next word.
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11:01:33 <Ray_work> Enth/flux fixed a lot of the problems people have mentioned, way before anybody knew there would be problems. Sean must have seen these things as problems as well.
11:02:51 <thinfu> Ray_work: i think if you're working in the windows CF then your pain points are reduced and you're not gonna be worrying about internet or other stuff that are important for programmer productivity in the native version
11:03:17 <thinfu> i wonder if the other CF pros are also working in the windows or linux versions instead of the native ?
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11:05:00 <Ray_work> I've read or saw in a CM movie that the Intellasys team is using a version of cF that is very nearly exactly like the current native but also runs in both linux and windows on a couple arctitectures.
11:05:29 <thinfu> who are they
11:05:42 <Ray_work> them. :)
11:05:46 <Ray_work> you know, I don't know.
11:05:52 <Ray_work> I've been meaning to find out. 
11:06:02 <Ray_work> I've wanted to talk to "them".
11:06:08 <thinfu> intellasys i mean
11:06:21 <Ray_work> OH! link follows...
11:06:50 <Ray_work> http://www.intellasys.net/
11:06:52 <thinfu> hmm, i guess now that i have a new used computer, i guess i can dedicate my old computer to CF
11:07:39 <Ray_work> You should say such things out loud. You could lose your standing with Quartus. But, from some of the conversations I've seen between you and Quartus... :)
11:07:48 <Ray_work> should/n't
11:08:23 <Ray_work> I have nothing to lose.
11:08:42 <Ray_work> I had nothing to start with. :)
11:14:18 <Ray_work> thinfu, about what you said working in windows... Yes that is very convenient. Also, simple enough to move a few blocks between the native and the windows version, should the code prove helpfull to the native.
11:14:36 <thinfu> okay
11:14:59 <thinfu> but are you sure that the windows version, the qwerty stuff is written in CF and not C or something?
11:15:18 <Ray_work> It's in assembler.
11:15:27 <thinfu> ok
11:16:08 <Ray_work> easy enough to poll the keyboard. 
11:16:30 <thinfu> right
11:16:49 <Ray_work> I have a code snippet that is a bonus for chuckBot readers, bottom of the page that displays the last key hit, as an example.
11:17:47 <Ray_work> From that, you could load block 48 and use the colorForth to ASCII converter and get either you wish.
11:41:23 <virl> Ray_work, how much icons can you use in CF?
11:46:41 <Ray_work> there are currently 96 tho I was able to add 16 or so when I did one of my graphical chess games.
11:49:21 <virl> 96.. 
11:50:36 <virl> icons = 18*256*4, when you say 96, then that means that each icon consists of a 9 x 9 image?
11:51:41 <Ray_work> I've seen that, are you looking at what the website?
11:52:09 <virl> website?
11:52:33 <Ray_work> colorforth.com. But more to the point, where did you read that?
11:52:47 <virl> in the source code
11:53:07 <Ray_work> OH okay right. i have a copy of that here, searching.... I need context.
11:54:14 <virl> it's at the top
11:54:17 <Ray_work> ya.
11:55:53 <virl> and I guess what that should mean, *4 means probably to calculate it so, that it's a multiple of 4 bytes -> 32 bit 
11:57:32 <Ray_work> virl are you in the windows version or the native?
11:58:34 <virl> native
11:59:43 <Ray_work> okay cool.
12:00:52 <Ray_work> 12*256 = 3072. that is the location of where the very first icon starts.
12:00:58 <Ray_work> 12th block.
12:01:19 <Ray_work> It's the offset from 0 to the first Icon.
12:03:56 <virl> very intelligent label, chuck!
12:03:57 <Ray_work> that's 12 blocks times 256 bytes times 4 bytes per word or the same as 12 blocks times 1024 bytes.
12:04:01 <Ray_work> hehe ;)
12:04:53 <virl> or calling the top of the return stack Gods
12:05:05 <Ray_work> Graphical Output Display.
12:05:11 <Ray_work> A real name.
12:05:23 <thinfu> GOD is in the machine!
12:05:28 <Ray_work> GODS is the GOD stack. :)
12:06:10 <virl> ah, ok. this makes sense, but where is it documented?
12:06:21 <Quartus_> as opposed to the graphical input display, I suppose. So it's a contrived name so he could chuckle to himself and call it the GOD stack?
12:12:19 <thinfu> http://acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?Acronym=gid&Find=find&string=exact   apparently Graphical Input Display really does exist..
12:12:34 <thinfu> guess it refers to touchscreens or something
12:12:43 <Ray_work> Quartus: this, part of the entire joke that we discovered last week. 
12:13:05 <thinfu> Ray_work: oh really? after several years the joke has been fully uncovered?
12:13:22 <Quartus_> In all seriousness, I think it really is a joke.
12:13:27 <Ray_work> The graphical input display in colorforth is the keyboard display, so I assume Chuck took this out further.
12:13:53 <Quartus_> oh? Does he reference a GID anywhere?
12:14:56 <Quartus_> or did he come up with another pun for that one?
12:15:35 <thinfu> Ray_work: what do you mean about the "entire joke" that was discovered last week?
12:15:45 <thinfu> i knew about the GOD thing several years ago..
12:15:56 <thinfu> is there something i'm missing?
12:16:26 <Quartus_> the colorForth/INTERCAL/Fizzbin connection.
12:17:29 <Ray_work> thinfu: it is our ( Quartus and myself) contention that this is all a ruse to thwart the ANS community or anyone Chuck can hook, I suppose.
12:18:05 <thinfu> wooo! up yours ANS community!
12:18:12 <Ray_work> hehe. 
12:18:14 <thinfu> and thanks for killing forth!
12:18:19 <thinfu> now i'm trolling
12:18:27 <thinfu> </troll>
12:18:28 <Quartus_> I don't think it targets standard Forth users, more the fringies.
12:18:43 <Ray_work> I don't think there is a GID description any where in the source but, 
12:20:14 <Quartus_> did you find the details of the yellow-green transition, I think it was?
12:21:48 <Quartus_> by the way: http://mobile.theonion.com/content/node/56008
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12:24:38 <thinfu> Quartus_: you read the one about gillette & 5 blades?
12:24:56 <Ray_work> me         dd  offset God  ; I've always loved this definition of me <-- which I assume is Main Execution.
12:25:04 <thinfu> way back like 4 years ago when shick came out with 4 blades
12:25:12 <Quartus_> A couple years ago. Did they recycle it?
12:25:17 <thinfu> which was hilarious..  and then gilette really did come out with 5 blades
12:25:27 <thinfu> nah i don't read theonion
12:25:29 <Quartus_> it was pretty amusing.
12:25:50 <Quartus_> I do on occasion. Sometimes it's very good.
12:26:39 <Quartus_> ray, I think source puns are actually worse than labels like a1 and a2, or foo and bar.
12:27:20 <Quartus_> me is a word. Using it for 'main execution' is atrocious naming.
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12:48:52 <Ray_work> First i've seen theonion. 
12:52:45 <thinfu> Ray_work: then check this out:  http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33930?issue=4228&special=2004
12:53:00 <thinfu> keep in mind, gilette didn't come out with 5 blades until recently
12:56:36 <Ray_work> I believe the 5th blade is on top of the razor and facing the other way as a single blade trimmer, which, in some cases works better then a multiple blade solution.
12:57:40 <Ray_work> of course, nothing beats a REAL razor, well sharpened.
12:58:06 <thinfu> did you read the article?
12:58:15 <Ray_work> just now starting to.
12:58:42 <thinfu> theonion is basically a parody of newspapers/news
12:59:22 <Ray_work> the new thing is battery operated razors. Don't ask me what the power is needed for. I don't suppose it does a sawing action. 
13:00:42 <Ray_work> That would be the 'new thing'. It lathers you as you go.
13:01:09 <Ray_work> followed by a wipe and dry behind the stroke.
13:01:39 <Ray_work> Electrolosis. 
13:03:02 <Ray_work> This Arisophanes. Man is HE out of it or what. It's as if he's been dead for millenia.
13:04:42 * Ray_work gets an hour break. 
13:05:02 <thinfu> after spending several hours on irc you definitely need a break! ;P
13:07:09 <Ray_work> Not just that. I've been selling on the phone and on the floor all morning. 
13:07:20 <thinfu> yeah i know, i was teasing
13:07:23 <Ray_work> The thing that's suffering is my inventory posting.
13:08:06 <Ray_work> AND I bought a GENIE lift and I gotta call that guy and get it out of here cuz it's enormaHuge and I can use the room.
13:08:32 <Ray_work> AND i'm training a newb.
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13:19:40 <thinfu> tiff: hello
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14:22:35 <crc> thinfu, the book arrived today
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14:30:35 <thinfu> crc: sweet :)
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14:31:16 <crc> I'll probably have it read through by sometime Sunday :)
14:43:17 <Quartus_> what book?
14:47:19 <thinfu> THE book
14:47:30 <thinfu> THE book on THE
14:49:04 <thinfu> "
14:49:14 <thinfu> "The Humane Interface" By Jef Raskin
14:54:25 <Quartus_> ah yes.
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