00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.12.10 00:31:24 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 00:45:52 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #retro 01:00:39 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 01:07:52 good morning 01:15:22 morning 01:23:55 --- quit: zpg ("brb") 02:25:03 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 05:15:03 good morning all! 05:18:11 --- nick: erder -> erider 05:58:30 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #retro 06:57:11 --- join: PGR (i=opera@ant-25.ug1.dp.ukrtel.net) joined #retro 07:08:37 --- quit: PGR (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 07:19:28 --- join: erider_ (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 07:25:10 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:25:18 --- nick: erider_ -> erider 07:29:24 crc: do you know about debugging? 07:29:31 And methods to debug programs? 07:30:04 I'd like to learn writing my own. :) 07:48:04 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro 08:02:33 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #retro 08:20:20 Cheery: writing your own what? 08:20:35 programs, or a debugger? 08:21:52 debugger 08:22:27 ah 08:22:52 a debugger for forth programs? 08:23:20 what language will it be for? 08:23:43 I assume you've seen http://www.retroforth.org/projects/Retrospect/ 08:23:51 (dunno what the status of that is) 08:25:25 futhin: uh, I'd like to learn writing a debugger. 08:25:51 I wouldn't like to write x86 debugger thought, or anything else useful. :) 08:26:05 debuggers aren't useful anyway 08:26:07 Even I may eventually end up doing. 08:26:12 they're a crutch for poor programmers :P 08:26:42 tathi: :> 08:27:14 Well, they are great for ensuring that your program works exactly like you ought it worked. 08:27:21 bah 08:27:28 that's what tests are for 08:27:33 But you could do exactly same with proper IDE, of course. :) 08:27:54 Cheery: i think you've got the wrong concept of what a debugger is.. they're much simpler than you think.. 08:28:11 tathi: I want proper tools which allows me to see immediately what happens when I change part of my program, and I like to know how debugger could handle it. 08:28:18 they're just to help you track down really hard bugs 08:28:41 futhin: if they are simpler than I think, it's great. 08:29:13 or how debugger could AID the process of writing very stable code. ;) 08:29:23 they don't aid in writing stable code 08:29:43 there are different kinds of debuggers.. 08:29:45 a debugger just lets you run your program one step at a time 08:29:55 basically 08:30:01 grr. 08:30:06 a debugger is just simply a program that helps you find bugs.. there are many different ways of doing so 08:30:22 some of them let you step thru each execution step 08:30:29 some of them are more about placing breakpoints or whatever 08:30:52 yeah, more advanced ones have better ways to help you stop just before the problem happens 08:32:14 tathi: you don't realize that by writing a debugger which fits with other tools in your working environment, you could really have use from a tool to check out each line in your code how it behaves? 08:32:55 Cheery: I realize it, but unless you have a poor understanding of the language, or a bug in the compiler, you already know how each line of your code behaves. 08:32:56 Think about seeing what your code actually does while writing it through. 08:33:00 without using a debugger 08:33:22 true, but who has interest to think about it whole time instead of being productive in some real thing? 08:33:43 Cheery: you thinking of an interactive coding environment that acts as a profiler & debugger? 08:33:44 if you don't understand the language, you'd be better off learning the language better 08:33:46 thats not a bad idea.. 08:33:53 there are better ways to do that than stepping through your code in a debugger 08:33:58 tathi: i think he's talking more in terms of an IDE 08:34:13 a place where you code while simultaneously getting information from the profiler/debugger 08:34:33 futhin: yeah, I realize that. I just don't think it's a terribly useful tool. 08:34:56 though I can see that it could be fun when you're first starting out 08:35:09 Cheery: take a look at unit testing, its a lot better than debugging ;) 08:35:17 futhin: yeah, exactly :) 08:35:50 I know unit testing, but I do not think it can alone replace anything. 08:36:05 it doesn't replace anything 08:36:08 I'm thinking about a whole system, not just debugger when I want to learn about debuggers. 08:37:20 you know that with unit testing you write the tests first before coding? it acts as a feedback mechanism and speeds up your coding 08:37:50 you're aiming at more feedback from other means 08:38:03 i don't think more feedback is a bad thing.. 08:38:56 I'm not thinking about a debugger as some magic bullet, but just thing which sounds like something I could have use from knowing how to build one. 08:39:38 you already know how to build one 08:39:45 well, it basically consists of having some mechanism to stop the program at any given point and let you examine its state. 08:40:01 which, depending on the language, can be simple or very arcane 08:40:28 and a stepper mechanism to let you execute each piece of code one at a time 08:40:42 well yeah, but if you have a breakpoint mechanism, you can build a stepper mechanism 08:40:52 that's all? 08:40:53 just break after the next piece of code, and go 08:40:58 that's the core of it 08:41:27 of course it generally has a better interface on top 08:42:22 I don't know if the implementation details would be that useful to you. 08:42:42 In a traditional direct or indirect threaded forth, it can be pretty simple 08:43:18 debuggers for native code tend to involve arcane processor details that aren't usually all that useful to know. 09:45:14 Cheery, I've never done a full debugger, just a few pieces (disassembler, stack tracer) 09:48:44 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #retro 09:52:47 --- nick: erider -> erder 10:21:11 --- nick: erder -> erider 11:17:08 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-109-129.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 11:44:52 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 12:16:44 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #retro 12:35:10 --- quit: tathi ("bbl") 13:16:28 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 16:04:49 --- nick: Raystm2- -> Raystm2 16:04:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Raystm2 16:09:21 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 16:10:00 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-109-129.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 16:17:32 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 16:17:56 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 18:02:36 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:15:40 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-50-26.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 20:10:10 --- quit: nighty_ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 22:26:51 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-54-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/06.12.10