00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.12.08
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06:11:05 <Ray_work> Good morning! FRI........DAY!
06:15:51 <zpg> there's an echo in here.
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06:23:47 <futhin> FRI...DAY....DAY....DAY
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08:00:25 <Ray_work> Hey futhin :)
08:00:34 <Ray_work> things going well, today?
08:08:27 <futhin> yup
08:08:45 <futhin> ruby on rails development = fun :P
08:08:49 <futhin> getting paid to do my hobby
08:08:52 <futhin> i'm a happy kid
08:09:36 <lukeparrish> awesome!
08:09:36 * Ray_work jealous.
08:09:42 <Ray_work> bastardo. :)
08:10:00 <futhin> hey lukeparrish :)
08:10:04 <futhin> how are you doing?
08:10:07 <lukeparrish> hey futhin
08:10:11 <lukeparrish> pretty good
08:10:20 <lukeparrish> still working the beeboards
08:10:32 <futhin> nice
08:10:39 <futhin> lots of work to do?
08:10:48 <futhin> is the job going to last for a long time?
08:11:02 <lukeparrish> at least a few more months :)
08:12:42 <lukeparrish> right now is the time people want their boards drilled the most, as they want the boards in the field during the summer.
08:13:26 <futhin> ah i see
08:15:41 <lukeparrish> what kinds of sites are you doing lately?
08:17:14 <Ray_work> got my check... guess there's no reason to stay the rest of the day now. :) hehe
08:17:21 <lukeparrish> :)
08:17:36 * lukeparrish considers what Forth on Rails would look like
08:17:57 <futhin> just working on the 1 site for my employers
08:17:57 <lukeparrish> probably 1/10000th the size of RoR ;)
08:18:04 <Ray_work> :)
08:18:14 <lukeparrish> kewl
08:18:27 <futhin> ruby is an interpretted language and fairly compact in terms of lines of code
08:18:33 <futhin> but its slow
08:18:54 <lukeparrish> yeah
08:19:46 <Ray_work> That's okay, cuz RaY is pretty slow too...
08:19:53 <lukeparrish> :)
08:20:12 * lukeparrish on coffee is fast but not as featureful
08:20:19 <futhin> heh
08:20:25 <lukeparrish> or user-friendly!
08:20:27 <Ray_work> and getting slower by the day. :)
08:20:35 <Ray_work> hehe
08:21:05 <futhin> yeah, thats what coffee does! :P
08:21:14 <futhin> i drink green tea everyday, thats my coffee
08:21:21 * Ray_work can't have coffee. :(
08:21:48 <futhin> i don't see how caffeine would affect the insulin ?
08:21:53 <Ray_work> I can't have my favorite Green tea either, but I suppose I could break down and brew it myself.
08:22:26 <futhin> hmm? i just boil up some water and drop a green tea packet in
08:22:29 <Ray_work> caffeine will dry me out and I already have a lack of moisture retention problem as a side effect of diabetes and the meds.
08:24:02 <Ray_work> doesn't stop me from drinking about 3-5 diet DrPeppers or diet cokes a day. But then I have to moisterize. 
08:24:13 <futhin> Ray_work: what about water?
08:24:16 * Ray_work looking into saranwrap sheets :)
08:24:31 <futhin> everyone's supposed to drink 8 glasses of water a day 
08:24:34 <futhin> :P
08:24:45 <futhin> pop/juice/etc don't count
08:24:49 <futhin> can't remember why
08:24:51 <futhin> but they don't
08:24:53 <Ray_work> Water? humans were not designed to drink Water? Humans are supposed to get there water out of there food. :) hehe
08:24:58 <futhin> lol
08:25:42 <Ray_work> beer. humans were designed to drink beer. oh if your from a more southern European stock, wine.
08:25:57 <Ray_work> you\'re
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09:56:39 <erider> hi all 
10:03:49 <futhin> Ray_work: i watched this whole program about the health benefits of drinking a glass of wine a day (2 for men) and about the french lifestyle etc, pretty cool, made me want to run out and stock up on wine
10:04:03 <futhin> and i used to hate wine
10:04:27 <Quartus> Turns out it's not the alcohol part of the wine, that's still poisonous, but the red part of specifically red wine, that has the health benefits.
10:04:31 <futhin> i'll have to go thru a forced-drinking program before i acquire a taste for it
10:04:34 <futhin> yup
10:04:53 <Quartus> You ca get the red part from red fruit, or you can buy it as a supplement at the health-food store.
10:05:06 <futhin> actually white wine has the potential to be as healthy as red but the thing is they don't leave the pulp in during fermentation for as long as the red wine
10:05:58 <futhin> but there are brewers that are starting to come out with the healthier version of white wine, which ends up a bit darker because of the extra time the pulp is in the mix
10:06:50 <Quartus> polyphenolic bioflavanoids are your friend.  The alcohol isn't.
10:06:56 <lukeparrish> there's something called "grape juice" that has that dark color :)
10:08:56 <Quartus> Vitmain C is also good.
10:09:14 <futhin> grape juice doesn't get fermented
10:09:31 <Quartus> Doesn't need to.  All fermentation does is produce alcohol.
10:10:05 <futhin> hmm, i think fermentation increases the polyphenolic bioflavanoids or at least extracts more of it out of the pulp..
10:10:57 <Quartus> Eating the pulp does the trick quite nicely, or again, you can buy it as a specific supplement.  The alcohol is an organic poison, and does not augment or enhance the effect of the flavanoids.
10:11:41 <Quartus> Red grape juice is crushed pulp + water + sugar.
10:14:13 <Quartus> So red grape juice (or red grapes), apples, tomatoes, green peppers, and if I recall correctly, broccoli.  All good sources without alcohol in 'em.
10:15:49 <futhin> berries have the greatest concentration of antioxidants of all fruits
10:15:52 <Ray_work> Not to mention the licopeen( for want of spelling) from the tomatoes. Cooked tomatoes. Supposed to be good for a man.
10:16:50 <Ray_work> Some of those wine drinkers are also Italian food eaters.
10:17:07 <Quartus> With incredibly high rates of heart problems.
10:17:17 <futhin> what?
10:17:33 <Quartus> Italian food is high in good stuff, and also high in bad stuff.  Saturated fats.
10:17:43 <Ray_work> Love those fats :)
10:17:45 <futhin> mediterranean diet/lifestyle = far less heart problems than americans
10:17:57 <Ray_work> miss those fats :)
10:18:15 <futhin> saturated fats aren't that bad, in fact it actually plays a role in increasing LDL (low-density lipids) which is the good form of cholesterol
10:18:38 <futhin> anyways italians, french, greeks, etc have far far far less heart problems than americans
10:18:49 <futhin> and they drink lots of wine too
10:18:59 <Quartus> Overweight + saturated fat = bad.  Trans fats are the real enemy.
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10:19:50 <futhin> carbs are the real enemy for overweight people
10:20:14 <Quartus> Excess calories and high GI carbs speed weight gain, but I'm referring to heart health.
10:20:43 <Ray_work> Idiot driving the wrong way down our frontage road. Lucky idiot at that.
10:20:46 <futhin> there is actually a physiological addiction to carbohydrates in most overweight people, due to their bodies producing too much insulin
10:21:00 <futhin> right
10:21:09 <Ray_work> ooh maybe I could farm a fatty .:)
10:21:16 <Ray_work> harvest I mean.
10:21:27 <Ray_work> going next door for food. brb,
10:21:41 <futhin> well actually carbs have a role in heart problems, specifically insulin spikes increase the formation of HDL cholesterol
10:21:44 <futhin> forget how tho
10:22:14 <futhin> Health, its good for you!
10:22:52 <Quartus> At any rate -- conditioning yourself to like wine just to get at the flavanoids is not so great an idea.
10:23:27 <futhin> yeah i'm reading some pages about the benefits of grape juice alone
10:23:29 <futhin> thanks for the tip
10:23:36 <futhin> definitely a great idea
10:23:56 <futhin> all future party hosts should serve grape juice alongside wine for those that don't drink! ;P
10:24:11 <Quartus> it's hard to isolate the benefits of diet from the benefits of lifestyle and genetics.
10:25:31 <Quartus> The cultural attitude toward work is quite different even in Paris than it is in most of North America, and they take longer vacations.
10:27:34 <futhin> thats great
10:27:47 <futhin> i think its stupid to work 40 hours a week 
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10:29:49 <futhin> because it takes up so much of your best time, plus getting to work and back, plus a normal amount of sleep of 8 hours, it ends up being like 3-4 hours of time at home before you go to bed, most of which is spent winding down
10:29:53 <futhin> unless you cheat and drink coffee
10:30:05 <Ray_work> futhin: we get paid for 45 or 50 hours a week, but work those hours while i'm here, not always. Look at me now :)
10:30:09 <futhin> coffee is the enabler for 40 hour weeks
10:30:15 <futhin> yeah
10:30:20 <Ray_work> I believe that.
10:30:24 <Quartus> coffee has been shown to be pretty good for you, in moderation.
10:30:35 <Ray_work> I believe that, too.
10:30:38 <futhin> green tea/black tea is much better though
10:30:51 <Quartus> Coffee is good for the liver, and it lowers the risk of diabetes.
10:31:11 <Quartus> Staves off alzheimer's.
10:31:19 <Ray_work> hmmm.... Wishing I had got the habit now.
10:31:27 <futhin> green tea has all the health benefits of coffee and more
10:31:45 <Quartus> Green tea has its own benefits, I'm not sure about the overlap.
10:31:59 <Ray_work> THC tea good for all that and cataracts too. 
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10:32:46 <Ray_work> JOSH! 
10:33:04 <tathi> er...hi
10:33:19 <tathi> do I want to know why you're so excited to see me? :)
10:33:31 <Ray_work> um, maybe not, sexy. :)
10:34:03 <Ray_work> No, just we all talking here and I wanted you to know where we happen to be today.
10:34:56 <Ray_work> Like you couldn't figure that out on yer own.
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10:36:04 <futhin> we were discussing the health benefits of wine vs grape juice (the latter wins), and coffee vs green tea vs weed tea (quartus's idea)
10:36:25 <Quartus> weed tea? Heh.
10:36:31 <Quartus> That was Ray.
10:36:36 <Ray_work> developers, developers, developers, developers!
10:37:07 <Ray_work> Quartus: I saw a report the other day about weed being good for altzhiemers and other things.
10:37:28 <Quartus> Ray_work, it's used medically.  Legal up here for a number of such purposes.
10:37:32 <futhin> oops
10:37:33 <futhin> misread
10:37:39 <tathi> I'll stick to water, just like I've always done. :)
10:37:59 <futhin> 1 glass of green tea a day for me, plus water
10:38:13 <futhin> actually green tea is great for preventing stretch marks
10:38:18 <futhin> <-- fat 
10:38:34 <Ray_work> <-- under weight
10:38:35 <futhin> but i'm getting back to the gym these days ;)
10:38:43 <futhin> i'm 260 lbs 5'10
10:38:45 <Ray_work> I'll have to, too.
10:38:49 <futhin> not as fat as it sounds
10:38:55 <Ray_work> i'm 135 5'11
10:38:55 <futhin> as my lean body mass is about 200 lbs
10:38:56 <tathi> <-- just the right weight :)
10:39:05 <Ray_work> farmer!
10:39:12 <tathi> ya
10:39:20 <futhin> when i went from 240 to 250 i got a lot of stretch marks, but since i started drinking green tea & went from 250 to 260 i didn't get any stretch marks
10:39:32 <futhin> so you know it works
10:39:59 <futhin> stretch marks are actually caused by a stress hormone in the body that interferes with the construction of the skin
10:40:08 <Ray_work> you have your stretchmarks idetifiable, counted so that you can tell when you get more?
10:40:17 <Ray_work> identifiable maybe?
10:40:24 <futhin> nah when you get fresh stretch marks its redder
10:40:31 <Ray_work> oh
10:40:32 <futhin> overtime it dulls
10:40:53 <Ray_work> ya.
10:40:57 <futhin> stretch marks actually have very little to do with "moist" skin or vitamin E
10:41:10 <Ray_work> really?
10:41:28 <futhin> one of my friends did the research on skin products and found out that the body doesn't actually absorb vitamins thru the skin
10:42:10 <Ray_work> Vitamin D? well I suppose the ultraviolet is not the vitamin but the catalyst for change.
10:42:11 <futhin> altho keeping the skin moist actually helps a little bit
10:42:16 <futhin> just not in terms of vitamins
10:42:21 <Ray_work> IT DOES! 
10:42:30 <Quartus> how can your lean body mass be 200 lbs. at 5'10"?  Do you have a metal endoskeleton like Wolverine?
10:42:31 <Ray_work> I've had a dry mouth for a month. 
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10:42:43 <tathi> hehe
10:42:52 <futhin> Quartus: i'm big boned, i get muscle if i so much as fart
10:42:53 <Ray_work> I moisterized my hands and feet and my mouth doesn't get dry any more.
10:42:57 <tathi> I was wondering that myself
10:43:19 <futhin> well i'm exaggerating a little, its closer to 190 lbs
10:43:32 <Quartus> Closer to 175, even heavily muscled.
10:43:37 <tathi> I'm 5'8" 142 lbs, which seems to be just right.
10:43:39 <Ray_work> Mine is 170 and i'm an inch taller.
10:43:40 <futhin> when i measured my body fat with 3 different methods its around 27%
10:44:18 <Quartus> what's your wrist size?
10:44:36 <Ray_work> two swatch band size?
10:44:53 <futhin> i think 7.5" around? or 8"
10:45:30 <futhin> don't have a measuring tape here at work heh
10:45:31 <Quartus> Maybe 185, then.  200 sounds high.
10:45:42 <futhin> well 190 lbs i mean
10:45:52 <futhin> as i said i exaggerated ;P
10:46:32 <futhin> anyways i gotta get fit and grow a mustache and become an orgy guy (making a seinfeld reference)
10:46:40 <Quartus> That puts you at 40% bf presently.
10:47:42 <futhin> 260 * .27 bf = 70lbs fat
10:47:52 <futhin> 260 - 70lbs = 190lbs lean body mass
10:48:21 <Quartus> 185 would be your ideal weight, bf included, at 15-20% already.
10:48:25 <Ray_work> can you see your penis? if you can see your penis, unobstructed by your stomach, you might be carrying it well.
10:48:35 <Quartus> ha ha ha
10:48:38 <Quartus> oh my
10:48:42 <futhin> Ray_work: yeah i can see my penis clearly
10:48:47 <Quartus> now the rain is gone
10:48:52 <futhin> heh
10:49:08 <Quartus> Nobody carries 260 lbs well.
10:49:34 <Ray_work> Unless she's the body building champion of the worldddddd!
10:49:37 <futhin> well there are muscular guys that are 260 ..
10:49:56 <futhin> anyways, my goal is to get down to 200 without losing muscle mass
10:50:02 <futhin> then i'll be ripped
10:51:13 <futhin> Quartus: i'm sure you've heard of the restricted calorie diet for longevity, well apparently its been shown to be linked more to having a low body fat than anything
10:51:52 <Quartus> The other end of the spectrum, a high body fat content, is linked to all kinds of unpleasant ways to die.
10:52:00 <futhin> anyways, muscle = good..  muscle = get hit by a car and get up afterwards...  muscle = functional..  muscle = allow you to leap over buildings!
10:52:04 <futhin> yeah
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10:54:32 <Ray_work> ooh I want some muscle. 
10:54:40 <Ray_work> I lost a lot. :(
10:54:46 <Quartus> go with that lifting plan I told you about.
10:54:55 <Ray_work> I was an athlete! , damn it!
10:55:20 <futhin> Quartus: what plan was that?  max-ot? hst? :P
10:55:20 <Ray_work> yes indeed! Quartus: your advice was taken very well.
10:55:31 <futhin> hypertrophy-specific.com if you want to get muscle very quickly
10:55:32 <Quartus> hit, without the insanity
10:55:46 <futhin> like 15 lbs of muscle in 8 weeks
10:55:52 <futhin> for an untrained person
10:56:01 <futhin> untrained in the sense of the muscle
10:56:18 <Quartus> yes, the early gains are always impressive.
10:56:34 <Ray_work> I'm not interested in anything but a simple regimin(sp?) I can do daily by adding reps or weight as needed.
10:56:49 <futhin> HST (hypertrophy-specific.com) you take a week off every 8 weeks to decondition the muscles and keep the gains up
10:58:01 <Quartus> I recommend something saner, for those who aren't trying to overcompensate for a perceived lack of manliness. :)  Five compound exercises, one set each, 8-12 reps to failure, once a week.
10:58:44 <Quartus> That can be taken to twice a week, if your system is up to it, but I prefer to have two or three days inbetween where my muscles don't ache.
10:58:58 <Ray_work> Nan is happy with my "manliness" . All that matters to me.
10:59:00 --- nick: erider_ -> erider
10:59:53 <futhin> yeah i don't care about muscle in terms of appearance
10:59:58 <futhin> mostly just strength
11:00:18 <futhin> i'm interested in seeing how strong i can get and what abilities that gives me
11:00:20 <Ray_work> ANarobic exercises as well. The only way to make reserved power and lung capacity. I'm certain of it cuz i lived it as a younger athlete.
11:00:59 <Quartus> There really isn't any anerobic exercise, unless you can lift weights without breathing.
11:01:09 <Quartus> Which I don't recommend.
11:01:10 <futhin> underwater weight lifting!
11:01:11 <futhin> heh
11:01:30 <futhin> man that'd be weird
11:01:35 <futhin> with the buoyancy and all
11:02:42 <tathi> eh, haven't you ever lifted things underwater?  It isn't that weird.
11:03:18 <futhin> only those 5lb rings
11:03:36 <futhin> i'm thinking more of like 200lb barbell
11:03:42 <futhin> or 100 even
11:04:34 <Ray_work> pedding a bike past your breath is anarobic. 
11:04:59 <Quartus> followed by fainting.
11:05:02 <Ray_work> Anything that take you a bit to catch your breath. 
11:05:16 <Ray_work> Long sprints.
11:05:21 <tathi> yeah, that's how I've heard the term used
11:05:27 <Ray_work> ya fainting hehe done that too I suppose.
11:05:55 <futhin> technically the definition of anaerobic exercise isn't as anaerobic as quartus thinks ;P
11:05:57 <Quartus> weight-lifting is sometimes called anaerobic, but it isn't -- it involves huge amounts of breathing.
11:06:10 <Quartus> And high heart rates.
11:06:35 <futhin> basically its really about whether the muscles are running off oxygen or glucose
11:06:45 <futhin> and the degree
11:08:41 <Ray_work> ya, that's what i'm refering to.
11:09:31 <Quartus> without sufficient oxygen + time, you deplete your ATP, and then the muscle fails to contract.
11:11:35 <Quartus> how the muscle contracts, and why, is not relevant to whether or not it gets stronger. It gets stronger because it is made to contract against resistance.  In other words, pick up heavy things, you'll get bigger muscles. :)
11:14:02 <Ray_work> I agree, but I'm speaking now of lung capacity and reserve. 
11:15:03 <Quartus> Wind sprints seem quite effective in improving aerobic capacity.
11:15:42 <Ray_work> if you don't go past your limit, you will actually make the lungs smaller and deplete you ability to reserve.
11:15:42 <Quartus> I avoid running, but I've heard good things.
11:16:34 <Ray_work> I like bike sprints better myself. Mostly because I feel like i'm getting somewhere on the journey. I suppose I need to be entertained.
11:21:16 <lukeparrish> I think what I read was that when the oxygen supply depletes, the muscle turns to a secondary short-term energy source that creates lactic acid, which then signals the body to manufacture more muscle.
11:21:39 <futhin> yup
11:21:57 <futhin> read that too
11:22:25 <lukeparrish> normally, your body (specifically, the mitochondria) makes ATP from oxygen and glucose, which the cells consume for energy
11:23:05 <lukeparrish> aerobic exercise helps you get better at producing ATP, probably by stimulating mitochondrial reproduction
11:26:11 <lukeparrish> seems like being too aerobicly fit would make it harder to develop muscle mass. you'd need more reps in less time to deplete the ATP and thus trigger the lactic acid producing cycle.
11:33:57 <futhin> or just increase the weights
11:34:58 <lukeparrish> yeah that'd work
11:35:51 <lukeparrish> so it's not how much you can lift that determines how much weight you need to lift to get more muscle, but how quickly your oxygen supply depletes.
11:45:29 <Quartus> Breathing properly is a critical part of lifting.
11:47:16 <futhin> diet is even more critical ;P
11:47:59 <Quartus> If you want to build muscle, you need to eat protein.  But during lifting, breathing is critical.  Instinct has people holding their breath during heavy core lifts, which is really bad for you.
11:50:20 <Ray_work> I've got that bad habit and try to be mindfull of it as I lift.
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11:50:29 <lukeparrish> I wonder if it's really ATP depletion and not oxygen depletion that triggers the lactic acid production.
11:50:33 <Quartus> exchale on the exertion.
11:50:36 <Quartus> er, exhale
11:51:16 <Ray_work> Quartus: yes.
11:51:47 <futhin> lukeparrish: its all an interplay, the body is smart enough to detect that the ATP is gonna get depleted before it is ;)
11:52:06 <lukeparrish> futhin: but it can only make it so fast
11:52:26 <lukeparrish> and if it has plenty, it doesn't need a secondary energy source.
11:53:15 <Quartus> And if you're Magilla Gorilla, you can make new ATP from bananas.
11:54:00 <lukeparrish> mmm, bananas
11:54:37 <lukeparrish> the secondary energy source being the anarobic process that produces lactic acid.
11:55:47 <virl> what are you talking about?
11:56:08 <lukeparrish> how to build muscle
11:56:24 <futhin> huh?! we are?!
11:56:24 <futhin> ;P
11:56:59 <virl> how to build muscle? eh? do you want to be a bodybuilder?
11:58:26 <futhin> thats not the only reason for muscle
11:59:05 <lukeparrish> virl: I being able to lift things, yes.
11:59:23 <futhin> its good for strength, protecting you from mishaps, etc..
12:02:17 <Quartus> and it makes you a more nutritious food source.
12:03:09 <lukeparrish> yeah fatty people give heart attacks.
12:03:29 <Quartus> Though the muscle they do have is nice and marblized.
12:03:38 <Quartus> Must be lunchtime. :)
12:04:03 <lukeparrish> health-conscious carnivores go for the muscular guys 
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12:12:37 <lukeparrish> see ya'll later
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13:05:02 <Ray_work> back from lunch. 
13:05:23 <Ray_work> don't anybody say "Who did you eat" cuz if I have to come over there...
13:21:23 <zpg> "Who did you eat"?
13:22:11 <Ray_work> Oscar Meyer.
13:22:45 <Ray_work> ~My balogna has a first name....
13:24:44 <zpg> And a second by the looks of things.
13:25:35 <Ray_work> ya, ancient Ballogna commercial.
13:28:35 <Ray_work> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Mayer 
13:29:14 <Ray_work> Oh, I wish I were an Oscar Mayer wiener 
13:29:14 <Ray_work> That is what I truly wish to be 
13:29:14 <Ray_work> 'Cause if I were an Oscar Mayer wiener 
13:29:14 <Ray_work> Everyone would be in love with me. 
13:29:14 <Ray_work> my favorite
13:29:44 <zpg> Lost across the Atlantic, evidently.
13:30:05 <Ray_work> sure, I bet y'all got enough bologna of your own.
13:30:09 <Ray_work> :)
13:30:31 <zpg> It's available, sure. With less jangles I'd imagine.
13:31:07 <Ray_work> besides, with the Brittish humor, I think the connotation of the above jingle would not be lost on your contemporaries as it was here.
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14:10:10 <virl> gosh, americans and their companies.. 
14:10:46 <futhin> gosh, non-americans and their companies..
14:12:14 <Quartus_> and gosh, multi-national companies.
14:14:31 <Quartus_> in fact, just "gosh" in general.
14:15:34 <zpg> gosh darnit
14:19:35 <virl> well I don't know any company where I would like to be one of it's products.
14:23:34 <Quartus_> I don't know that there's a large market for disgruntled Austrians, so you're probably safe :)
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15:38:56 <futhin> how much are they? i feel like buying one
15:40:55 <Quartus> Even trade for two disenfranchised Romanians, with a depressed Dutch charwoman given back in change.
15:42:34 <futhin> hmmm, are you implying austrians are a historical products?
15:42:42 <futhin> s/ a //
15:42:45 <Quartus> hysterical?
15:42:51 <futhin> lol
15:43:04 <Quartus> histrionic?
15:43:06 <futhin> no, historical, do charwomen exist anymore?
15:43:29 <futhin> er
15:43:30 <Quartus> They do.
15:43:34 <futhin> i assumed the wrong definition
15:43:35 <futhin> nevermind
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