00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.11.25
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06:39:44 <erider> wb Cheery
07:01:05 <Cheery> hi
07:06:40 <erider> Cheery: anything new with the assembler?
07:07:13 <Cheery> I'm just sitting here and wondering what kind of complexity by what kind of magnitude I should remove.
07:07:43 <Cheery> x86 is hell complex when you really look into it.
07:07:51 <Cheery> 1300 instructions and ugly instruction format.
07:07:59 <Cheery> Enough to slow anybody.
07:10:13 <Cheery> My FORCE has only ~50 words.
07:13:46 <Cheery> Oh well, I think I concentrate on getting it work, then I concentrate on some completely different architecture.
07:14:57 <erider> how do you use it? 
07:15:58 <Cheery> simple, you just type [a, then you write code, : interpret as labels, ; interprets as close markings... etc. then you type ] to get back to rxforth.
07:16:00 <erider> Can I pipe commands into it and it assembles it into binary?
07:16:45 <Cheery> yes.
07:17:12 <Cheery> I've not implemented that yet thought, because I don't need it yet.
07:17:25 <erider> ah ok 
07:20:03 <erider> Cheery: I was just trying to figure out how to use force at its current form
07:27:40 <Cheery> It has not much uses at the form where it is on your hardware.
07:28:10 <Cheery> They are more or less parts which are still detached from each other and functions only on their own.
07:34:56 <Cheery> Thought, I think I rest this day.
07:45:31 <erider> ok 
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11:18:05 * lukeparrish is finally poking around in the toka source -- extremely awesome how well-organized and clean it is.
11:19:09 <erider> yes it is! 
11:19:16 <erider> I love it 
11:19:25 <lukeparrish> :) :)
11:19:54 <erider> lukeparrish: do you have the newest version?
11:20:20 <lukeparrish> I think so
11:20:51 <lukeparrish> it's dated Nov 12
11:20:59 <erider> ok cool! my last update with 22 Nov
11:21:13 <erider> s/with/was
11:21:32 * lukeparrish should check email to make sure
11:22:25 <lukeparrish> yeah nov 12 is the latest I have
11:38:25 <erider> I have from 24 nov 
11:52:52 <lukeparrish> ah, found it
12:02:08 <erider> cool! 
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17:04:04 <lukeparrish> toka is just so beautiful!
18:00:59 <erider> lukeparrish: you like it? :)
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18:18:26 <crc> good evening
18:18:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
18:23:33 <erider> hi crc
18:24:02 <crc> hi erider
18:24:11 <crc> my dsl connection is finally working again :)
18:24:37 <erider> great!
18:25:21 <erider> anything new with toka?
18:25:47 <crc> not yet
18:25:48 <erider> oh! I wanted to ask you about the nesting 
18:26:00 <crc> what about it?
18:26:10 <erider> what is the usage
18:26:20 <erider> in a nutshell
18:26:51 <erider> why to I need to nest quotes? 
18:26:57 <erider> do*
18:26:59 <crc> loops and conditionals
18:27:18 <crc> loops are handled by iterate:
18:27:23 <crc> count quote -- 
18:27:40 <crc> [ depth [ drop ] iterate ] is reset
18:27:45 <erider> right but I'm still not getting it 
18:27:57 <crc> iterate will invoke the quote the specific number of times
18:28:30 <erider> the number from the return of depth?
18:28:35 <crc> yes
18:29:32 <erider> ok so it takes from the stack the first quote's return 
18:29:51 <crc> iterate takes the quote to invoke and a count
18:30:08 <crc> it does not care what the quote it invokes does with the stack
18:31:59 <erider> ok I'm not understanding. I understand the example I think but i'm not getting forth 
18:32:35 <crc> this corresponds to (basically):
18:32:42 <crc> : reset depth for drop next ;
18:32:43 <crc> or
18:32:54 <crc> : reset depth 0 do drop loop ;
18:32:55 <erider> crc: your new version doesn't load both bootstraps?
18:33:08 <crc> both bootstraps?
18:33:38 <erider> I have bootstrap.toka and bootstrap 
18:34:02 <crc> bootstrap is the old one; bootstrap.toka replaces it
18:34:22 <erider> ok 
18:34:47 <erider> but I have to pipe it in to toka right?
18:34:52 <crc> no
18:34:57 <crc> ./toka bootstrap.toka
18:35:02 <crc> or:
18:35:08 <crc> rlwrap ./toka bootstrap.toka
18:35:22 <crc> it no longer needs to be piped in
18:35:52 <erider> cool! lukeparrish and I are really liking your C coding
18:35:59 <crc> thanks
18:36:34 <erider> <lukeparrish> toka is just so beautiful!
18:36:34 <erider> <erider> lukeparrish: you like it? :)
18:37:20 <erider> crc: so there is just one loop in toka?
18:37:31 <crc> yes
18:37:55 <crc> there is 'recurse', which is useful in some cases, but generally iterate is the way to do loops
18:37:58 <erider> cool 
18:38:04 <crc> look at "other/fib.toka" for an example of recursion
18:38:38 <erider> I wanted to ask about the color words
18:38:47 <erider> what are they used for
18:39:21 <crc> I initally put them in to test the string compilation words; they are what I use when I need colors in a console application
18:40:59 <erider> [ dup 1 > [ dup 1 - recurse swap 2 - recurse + ] [ ] t/f ] is fib
18:40:59 <erider> 35 fib . bye
18:41:28 <erider> toka parses from left to right crc?
18:41:35 <crc> yes
18:43:00 <erider> I wanted to know why can't we just use the word's name itself to active the recursive 
18:43:14 <crc> in toka, the name is not bound until after the quote is created
18:43:51 <erider> I see 
18:43:55 <crc> (this is similar to ANS FORTH)
18:44:03 <erider> and the t/f 
18:44:10 <crc> t/f is true/false 
18:44:21 <crc> flag true-quote false-quote
18:44:26 <erider> I understand that 
18:44:36 <crc> t/f exists in retro and rxforth
18:44:45 <erider> but I'm trying to read it in context 
18:47:22 <erider> crc you write some pretty C code 
18:47:54 <erider> crc: have you finished with the ffi.c stuff 
18:49:18 <crc> I haven't tested in on a 64-bit system yet
18:49:27 <crc> and it still needs callbacks
18:49:33 <crc> it works nicely on 32-bit systems though
18:49:43 <erider> I have 64bit 
18:50:08 <crc> I have shell access to a 64-bit system; now that my dsl is back I can test it there
18:50:27 * erider is trying to figure the Syntax highlighting for Toka files 
18:51:01 <crc> you could follow the process in doc/FFI to try enabling it if you want to try it
18:51:13 <crc> the only highlighter I have done is for nano
18:53:05 <erider> crc: Really how useful is forth and its cryptic style of programming?
18:53:32 <Quartus> Clearly it's useless, too cryptic to be of any use, and you should move on.
18:54:13 <crc> it's no worse than any other language I have used
18:54:57 <crc> I actually like it; even when I have to deal with other languages, forth is a nice language for tieing the pieces together
18:55:19 <crc> ffi appears to work ok on the 64-bit system I have access to
18:56:02 <erider> crc: the from word finds the library automatically or does one have to specify the path?
18:57:40 <crc> if it's in the system library path, it should be found
18:59:25 <erider> it willn't build :/
18:59:35 <erider> won't*
19:01:31 <erider> looks like some minor issues I have some undefined references
19:04:43 <erider> crc: where is ffi_invoke and ffi_from defined?
19:05:07 <erider> also ffi_import?
19:06:42 <crc> in ffi.c
19:06:58 <crc> just a second; I'll send out a new tarball that makes this easier to build
19:09:17 <crc> sent
19:09:36 <crc> in the new tarball, just do "make ffi" to get the ffi support
19:09:56 <erider> got it 
19:15:51 <erider> great! crc
19:19:34 <erider> crc: I have a permissions issue
19:19:35 <crc> does it work ok?
19:19:56 <erider> ffi: Unable to open libc.so
19:20:01 <crc> try:
19:20:04 <crc> from libc.so.6
19:20:10 <erider> I may need to do it in root 
19:20:16 <crc> some distros seem to be pickier on this than others
19:20:57 <erider> I can't really touch my libraries files with out sudo 
19:21:40 <crc> odd
19:21:55 <erider> IT WORKED! 
19:21:56 <crc> this should not need root permissions
19:21:59 <erider> \o/
19:22:11 <crc> unless the symlinks are done oddly...
19:22:14 <crc> good :)
19:22:22 <erider> it was a library issue 
19:22:59 <erider> wow that is impressive 
19:23:19 <erider> sorry Quartus if I made you made 
19:24:00 <Quartus> I was serious.  It's been months, and you're not writing Forth, you're not learning Forth, and you claim you don't get Forth.
19:26:30 <erider> I haven't found anything to test my hand in writing code in forth yet but I give forth sometime in each day 
19:27:28 <Quartus> Ok.  You ask the same kind of questions again and again; that makes it seem as though you're not making any progress at all.
19:27:48 <erider> And I have spoken to guys here that have been using forth a lot longer than me that haven't wrote anything either in forth 
19:29:06 <erider> sorry I will hold my questions to a minimum 
19:29:35 <Quartus> I don't have any problem with questions, but if somebody asks the same question again and again, culimnating in 'is this cryptic language useless?' I've got to wonder.
19:30:51 <erider> I'm frustrated with not be able to pick it up and do something useful with the language at this point in time 
19:31:03 <erider> I'm a little worried 
19:31:08 <Quartus> So try to do something useful.  Then when you have trouble, bring that forward as a question.
19:31:40 <erider> ok I will 
19:32:27 <Quartus> You're not going to learn, or 'get', a programming language unless you actually use it.
19:33:11 <erider> agreed 
19:34:02 <erider> I'm just trying to get the feel for what and how I can get going with forth. A feel for the style 
19:34:19 <Quartus> The way to get going is to get going.
19:34:36 <erider> I really don't mean to get anyone mad at me 
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20:22:43 <Raystm2> ~There's a kind of hush all over the world tonight. All over the world you can hear the sound of Forthers in Forth. Do you know what I mean?~
20:24:48 <Quartus> I'm afraid!
20:33:12 <lukeparrish> hi guys
20:33:16 <Quartus> Hi.
20:33:36 <lukeparrish> hello Quartus
20:43:57 <Quartus> Hey hey What's up?
20:44:23 <lukeparrish> just reading the above conversation and thinking of a reply :)
20:44:35 <Quartus> Which conversation?
20:45:03 <lukeparrish> mainly erider's question about what forth's practical advantages are
20:45:46 <lukeparrish> the thing I think is advantageous about forth (from my newbie-ish perspective) is that I understand what I write on a basic level.
20:46:04 <Quartus> If you have to ask, you should move along.  Seriously -- because the way to find out isn't to ask, it's to get in there and try.  It's available, documented, interactive, and lots of people are hanging around to help if you get stuck.
20:46:26 <lukeparrish> it forces me to think about things that my mind was permitted to skim over in other languages
20:47:25 <lukeparrish> actually the main learning block seems to be prejudices I picked up from these other languages
20:48:22 * erider hopes his  questions are not disrupted and he will curtail them from now on
20:48:30 <lukeparrish> yeah the way to learn really is to get in and try stuff out.
20:48:47 <lukeparrish> erider: don't stop asking questions, just try and be smarter about it.
20:48:56 <Quartus> Ask all the questions you want, but you will benefit from the answers if they're questions about something you've actually tried to do.
20:50:02 <lukeparrish> do your research, think before pressing enter, make sure it's not something you've already asked (and got a good answer for), try stuff out, etc.
20:52:25 <Quartus> If you don't actually try things out, and keep asking the same questions in a kind of circle, expect me or somebody just as frustrated by it to call you on it!
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22:49:03 --- log: started retro/06.11.25
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22:49:03 --- topic: 'RetroForth | Pastebin @ http://retroforth.net/paste | The editing key is 'despair''
22:49:03 --- topic: set by ChanServ on [Sat Nov 25 22:42:47 2006]
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