00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.10.21 00:03:20 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 00:23:02 --- quit: Cheery (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:23:04 --- quit: erider (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:23:04 --- quit: lukeparrish (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:25:41 --- join: lukeparrish (n=docl@74-36-211-202.dr01.hmdl.id.frontiernet.net) joined #retro 00:25:41 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 00:25:41 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 00:25:41 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o lukeparrish 03:25:10 --- log: started retro/06.10.21 03:25:10 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #retro 03:25:10 --- topic: 'RetroForth | Pastebin @ http://retroforth.net/paste | The editing key is 'despair'' 03:25:10 --- topic: set by crc on [Sat Aug 05 13:13:30 2006] 03:25:10 --- names: list (clog erider Cheery @lukeparrish crc Quartus_ neceve virl timlarson nighty @nanstm Quartus @ChanServ) 04:17:52 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 05:38:47 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro 06:01:08 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 06:03:40 --- join: jas2o (n=jason@WNPP-p-203-54-32-77.prem.tmns.net.au) joined #retro 06:06:06 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro 06:10:48 I just had an epiphany in RxChess. 06:10:54 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 06:12:20 good morning Raystm2 06:12:30 hi erider. :) 06:13:02 how are you doing today 06:13:30 hey did you understand what I was talking about yesterday? 06:14:20 I am well, and hope you are, as well. Which conversation? 06:14:54 * Raystm2 looking backlog... 06:15:27 about the macro language 06:16:08 Oh, I will have to look into the log for that. I suppose I was busy at work. 06:16:18 well to just make a core and add a macro system and add water and watch it grow :) 06:16:18 This channel? 06:16:27 That sounds fun. 06:16:54 no Keow 06:17:10 Raystm2: have you used lisp or scheme before 06:17:28 Yes, lisp and Dr.Scheme. 06:18:12 breifly, about a year or y .5 + and loved it but haven't gone back since finding forth. 06:18:40 now imagine if we just had a system that we could just write code to write code for fisp 06:19:10 I was okay with the parens, and I thought that I could think in the language easily, It's dance-able, I give it a 97. 06:19:16 then we would have to break the language and remake each time we wanted to add something new 06:19:46 wouldn't* 06:20:27 then we wouldn't have to break the language and remake it each time we wanted to add something new 06:20:38 Ya. 06:22:11 then anyone could happen develop the language we just the macro system and not really needing to know that internals 06:22:27 s/happen/helo 06:22:30 s/happen/help 06:22:40 --- quit: jas2o (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:23:05 with just* 06:23:34 man I really don't like english sometimes 06:25:10 You know, one of the things that interests me about colorforth has to do with how much you can do with so little. When an optimization is discovered it is easily macroed, but if the optimization becomes popular over many applications then a collection of these macros is easily selected by the cursor and moved to more convenient blocks. The code is always re-arranging itself with the addition of application. 06:26:05 Well, not itself per se, but the action of optimizing can mean constantly re-writting written code. 06:26:22 And I think that is the direction we should move into 06:26:56 Raystm2: do you know have the macro system in lisp or scheme works 06:27:23 I don't know how, no. I am interested in finding out, though. 06:27:25 well not how it works 06:28:00 way its its important to programmer and the grow of the language 06:28:14 ya. 06:28:36 be able to make a domain specify language is beautiful 06:29:36 we need to work on a macro language 06:29:50 code that writes code 06:29:52 I was just working on RxChess0.0.3 and noticed that the word 'include' means that my persistant save-game files can also be used to initialize the game, even change every single aspect of it, making it extensible by any player in any way imaginable. 06:30:07 then we can let fisp write itself 06:32:31 thinfu had an interesting criticism of forth on #sitepoint the other day. he said that forthers tend not to go very far past the low-level 06:32:55 his thought was that it's a weakness inherent in the forth paradigm 06:33:28 JasonWoof had some counter-examples, and I mentioned retrowiki 06:34:04 but the thought that forth's paradigm makes it hard to get past a certain level might have a point 06:34:33 that's where I think a scheme-like layer on top might be useful 06:34:52 what do you guys think? 06:34:52 exactly! 06:34:54 It's good over the problem domain, where a problem exists. State the problem, the forth solution appears. 06:36:18 The problem is, good enough solutions in other application domains exist, are established, and don't need much mucking with. 06:36:41 But find an open area, bam forth. 06:36:57 Forth gets there first. 06:40:35 but let's say windowing. what's the obvious way to spawn and manipulate windows in forth? 06:40:40 Its great at design. If it was awesome at integration with everything out there, it would be a phenominal way to interface a computer. But it could also redefine all of that, that exists. Possibly, in worse, if not better ways at least optional. 06:41:18 are we still talking about macros? 06:41:39 What we are really talking about here is rendering realistic images. If you can do that, you can simulate any windowing you require. 06:42:16 Major graphics library needs to be forthed. 06:42:54 retroforth could be used to make macros for scheme, I think. 06:43:13 or Rx, etc. 06:44:04 that could be it's main use, writing macros for another language to call 06:44:48 (er, use in this context) 06:44:58 Be neat to beable to write in forth, scheme, c, and asm, all in the same environment, I would think. Changing at will. 06:48:58 lukeparrish: you and I are seeing the power of the macro system 06:52:41 I think that forth is a macro-ing system. Every word is calling other words or machine language. 06:52:42 Raystm2: for now, it's probably simpler to have calls to outside windowing environments. but I see what you're saying. 06:53:06 ya. 06:53:21 we could make a one-window graphical system that acts like it's own "OS" independantly of Doze or X 06:53:58 this could then be maximized or run from DOS or shell to save memory 06:54:30 macros are simply executed at a different time, and therefore have drastically different effects 06:54:41 they affect the code itself 06:55:11 this makes having macros resemble the normal code a bit confusing 06:55:59 by making lisp-style the normal code defining mechanism, and forth-style the macro mechanism, you might suddenly make it a lot easier (just a guess) 06:56:36 or maybe the added complexity of learning it would negate it's value :/ 06:57:33 but both syntaxes are so simple, and everyone that learns one should learn the other anyway. 06:58:27 I guess the question is, is forth the optimal language for defining syntax rules? 06:58:53 hmm. BNF is, isn't it? 06:59:28 we could use a forth-based bnf layer for this. 07:08:03 RetroForth Windows tip: It is convenient to write batchfiles that load forth programs in RetroForth, as the batchfile can enter the command line entry you need to start your program. The tip is, at the top of the batchfile after @echo off, and on the next line type TITLE and the name of your program, then on the next line what ever commands to start your file. This will add your program name to the title of the window that it is dis 07:09:54 You can test this by opening a cmd prompt and typing title and any message you want to appear in the title bar for that moment. 07:10:02 cool 07:10:41 One way to own the domain is to make it your bitch. :0 07:11:38 huh? 07:11:54 * lukeparrish is confused by that one 07:12:12 Also, you since you've created a batch file, and in windows it now has an icon, you can create a keyboard shortcut for that application. 07:17:31 Those bat files can take arguments and start all maner of forth specialized interpreters. 07:19:04 I think, once you interface forth to the best program in the problem domain, say e-mail, latch on to the best e-mail program, forth factoring begins and eventually you don't need the original program cuz you've optimized all it's functionality in forth. 07:24:23 If you had an e-mail system, connected to a great html display system, and that driven by applications developed by teams and stored on the web and dl'ed and compiled on demand, you might have a neat forth system. 07:24:40 It wouldn't be to far from there to a browser. 07:25:47 Running what you need done becomes linking to the best code you can find. 07:26:31 * erider just sent a email to the creator of lispme 07:26:59 I suppose it would be neat to have a webforth that runs in many browsers. 07:27:28 Raystm2: can you cgi with forth 07:28:08 You'd have to ask crc, I don't know, I've never done or seen any. 07:28:12 yes, you can 07:28:14 cool. 07:28:25 the wiki on retroforth.net is done in forth, e.g. 07:28:38 that you can do what you are asking for Raystm2 07:28:47 s/that/then 07:28:53 JasonWoof has also set up a gForth cgi 07:29:38 http://jasonwoof.org/gforthcgi 07:31:09 hmm. there's a gtk world for RxForth that runs in a window with textboxes 07:31:35 http://docl.rx-core.org/files/ 07:31:47 (that's likely not the latest) 07:33:23 http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rxforth/files has the latest 07:33:45 http://rxforth.googlegroups.com/web/1c_preview2.tar.gz?gda=YMFAaUgAAABawbiddqvJ4RyloBT9EdYEfMzzqGxw4eAQpARfYhYFCBVJVT3hrgKrn_IySc8la3LGtwZXIcKHyk6z5T-NQ4QRSYlby6FNkDV8lQ-MeBr9rw 07:39:46 hmm. gtk seems broken in the latest. 07:43:36 the one on my site works fine though 09:59:11 --- join: Shain (i=steve@c-67-161-56-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #retro 10:49:28 lukeparrish: I'll be fixing the gtk demo today 10:50:16 cool 10:53:41 crc: hi 11:19:50 ok, the updated snapshot is up 11:30:29 works 11:31:16 one nitpick about it, pressing enter doesn't automatically do the evaluate button. 11:32:08 also, tab from the output field inserts a tab instead of switching to input (shift-tab works though) 11:33:10 the output field is actually a textfield 11:33:27 I still have to tie in some signals for setting the default button, etc 11:35:07 crc: are you adding this words to the retro implementation? 11:36:40 yes 11:38:39 now what is the thingy you are working on in assembly? 11:40:31 a) 64-bit clean version of the rx core (for retro and rxforth); this will take a while though 11:41:11 rxforth is different from retroForth crc 11:41:12 b) varient of the rx core with most words coded in assembly 11:41:28 retro uses an older version of the rx core 11:42:01 hmm ok I guess I need to compile rxforth 11:43:53 http://retroforth.org/newgtk.f is the new GTK+ words for retro 11:45:46 cool 11:47:24 (specifically the generic, retro-ffi, port) 11:47:31 crc: rxforth is not compatible? 11:47:46 on X86_64 11:48:33 both retro and rxforth are 32-bit 11:48:51 there are flags for gcc to make it use/link against the necessary 32-bit libraries 11:48:58 -m32 and maybe some others 11:49:17 I will build it in my chroot 11:52:19 crc: got it 11:52:43 whats the differences from rxforth and retroforth? anyone 11:53:31 well I have to use the rlwrap 11:54:06 rxforth is focused on supporting Linux and BSD systems. It has a richer set of words for working with files, external libraries, and better support for scripting 11:54:36 cool! 11:54:53 it does not have the block editor present in retro, though I could port it quickly enough 11:55:03 but the language primitives are the same? 11:55:07 mostly 11:55:29 cool! 11:55:55 rxforth has some extra words (many of these will be in retro 9.3) to let it work better with files, libraries, etc 11:56:15 I believe that I will be able to do basic CGI work in it soon too :) 11:56:25 ok nice :) 14:42:17 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 14:57:02 Socionics test: http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=230 15:05:02 lukeparrish: what is the purpose of that code you just pasted? 15:05:48 it's a test to see what your basic personality traits are. 15:08:47 the questions are longer than in most personality quizes, but there's only three of them. 15:20:55 --- join: daemon (n=oo1@88-111-81-58.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #retro 15:47:24 --- quit: daemon (Remote closed the connection) 15:58:57 whups, forgot to make it execute the test automatically 16:13:03 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:25:05 --- join: jas2o_ (n=jas2o@WNPP-p-203-54-32-142.prem.tmns.net.au) joined #retro 16:25:41 --- nick: jas2o_ -> jas2o 16:47:38 --- quit: jas2o ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]") 17:49:25 lukeparrish: with the console library ("rxpkg install console" and add "needs console" to the socforth source) it works just fine under rxforth 18:06:48 nice 18:12:16 a more concise version: http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=231 18:18:52 add "#! /usr/bin/rxforth" at the start and "bye" to the definition of "end" and then do "chmod +x" on the file to have a nice little script 18:39:12 http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=232 works as a script, supports j/p 18:44:57 nice 18:45:47 * crc will attempt a cgi version of this sometime 18:49:10 cool :) 18:55:37 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 19:10:23 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 19:20:43 --- join: upaz (n=nealc@200.103.120.253) joined #retro 20:29:37 --- join: nealc_ (n=nealc@200.103.120.253) joined #retro 20:41:16 --- quit: upaz (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:21:02 --- part: nealc_ left #retro 23:22:20 lukeparrish: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rxforth/web/rxforth_web_demo.tar.gz 23:22:40 this packages a perl-base web server with the socforth as a cgi app 23:23:05 you may need to rebuild cgilib (in the cgilib subdirectory) and copy the new libcgi.so to www/cgi-bin 23:23:23 and it needs rxforth to be installed in /usr/bin for the script to work 23:35:44 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 23:37:13 --- join: virl (n=virl@62.178.85.149) joined #retro 23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/06.10.21