00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.10.15
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04:09:40 <Cheery> now I've my virtual machine.
04:09:43 <Cheery> Damn it's primitive. :)
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09:25:17 <crc> good afternoon
09:34:31 <erider> hi
09:35:39 <Cheery> hi
09:36:18 <erider> crc how is your gtk+ coming 
09:36:26 <crc> the basic bindings are done
09:36:51 <crc> I have done a couple of simple programs with it; but still have to work on bindings for more widgets
09:37:00 <Cheery> crc: have you seen the commenting system lukeparrish or somebody introduced?
09:37:07 <erider> I was just looking at a jpg of what zpg had done
09:37:18 <crc> Cheery: the prefix based one?
09:37:34 <Cheery> yes, one which used backslashes.
09:37:38 <crc> yeah
09:37:43 <Cheery> \comment\
09:37:47 <Cheery> \comment
09:38:00 <Cheery> What about adding it to rx?
09:38:01 <Cheery> :)
09:38:05 <Cheery> And removing the |
09:38:23 <crc> I will consider it
09:38:58 <Cheery> I think it is enjoyable.
09:39:52 <Cheery> Have you seen this? http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=223
09:40:49 <crc> I had not seen that
09:42:07 <crc> Cheery: I am working with an older version of ipkg as a basis for the library update/installation tool
09:43:11 <Cheery> cool
09:43:33 <crc> I should have something ready to show off later today
09:47:42 <erider> did you see http://ezil.sourceforge.net/screenshots/gtk-forth.jpg
09:47:50 <erider> crc
09:47:59 <crc> yes
09:48:07 <crc> hello world is a trivial app in gtk :)
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09:48:38 <erider> http://ezil.sourceforge.net/devel/gtk-forth.html
09:49:46 <crc> http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=201
09:50:26 <crc> using my wrappers over the raw GTK+ api
09:52:10 <erider> cool
09:52:11 <crc> that yields http://retroforth.org/gtkhello.png when run
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09:54:42 <erider> cool!
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09:55:16 <erider> I wish I could read forth better 
09:58:50 <virl> heh crc
09:59:34 <erider> virl: hi
10:01:00 <virl> reading forth is a problem?
10:02:23 <erider> I can read assembly easier then forth 
10:05:03 <virl> for me it's the opposit
10:05:21 <erider> virl: you find forth easy to read?
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10:05:49 <virl> when it's well written, yes.
10:06:03 <Cheery> crc: what window manager do you use?
10:07:15 <virl> hmm.. something with Desktop, which ones have a desktop directory? KDE for sure, Gnome? and which others?
10:07:22 <crc> at the moment I am using compiz+gnome
10:07:33 <virl> ok, yes..
10:07:48 <crc> I also use ratpoison, blackbox, and sometimes WindowMaker
11:18:29 <crc> ok, the basic install/remove functionality is working
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11:34:26 * Raystm2- likes | pipe comments in Retro. This tells me from the first comment, without any other context, that the forth source i'm looking at is a retroforth source.
11:35:08 --- nick: Raystm2- -> Raystm2
11:35:15 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Raystm2
11:37:29 <crc> now I can install, remove, list all installed libaries, and query individual libraries for some information about them
11:38:43 <Raystm2> crc: query? like looking in a 'not-all-ready-installed' library, looking for the source listing of the word  you need?
11:39:57 <crc> no, each library provides a brief description with things like the "needs" line to use
11:40:08 <Raystm2> okay.
11:40:19 <crc> rxforth info <library> would give this
11:40:53 <crc> I still have to code the "needs" word
11:41:17 <crc> for now, I am putting the libraries in /usr/share/rxforth/library
11:41:17 <Raystm2> Needs is an import word that only imports once?
11:41:24 <crc> eventually, yes
11:41:32 <crc> it also has to know where the library modules are
11:55:03 <crc> other than not importing more than once, I have a functional "needs" now
12:35:41 <crc> now it's loading from ~/.rxforth/library/
12:41:21 <Raystm2> crc am I doing something wrong here...
12:41:42 <crc> ?
12:41:47 <Raystm2> I'm creating a page in projects/glypher called notes
12:41:54 <crc> ok
12:42:11 <Raystm2> i've hi-jacked and made changes to book calling it notesbook.
12:42:20 <Cheery> crc: have you add it to the rxforth yet?
12:42:34 <crc> Cheery: it'll be up in about an hour
12:42:38 <Cheery> ok. :)
12:43:00 <Raystm2> notesbook is supposed to do what book does for handbook only for notes, generate the html, ps, txt, from the rdml.
12:43:12 <Raystm2> when I call notesbook it never returns.
12:46:18 <crc> Raystm2: it should work now
12:46:32 <crc> rdml files need to end with \end
12:47:09 <Raystm2> :) 
12:47:16 <Raystm2> yikes okay thanks.
12:47:54 <crc> I should port rdml over to rxforth... would make some things easier and less troublesome :)
12:48:33 <Raystm2> yes, indeed. you could have a fully inclusive documenting facility, right on board.
12:49:12 <Raystm2> infact, with some hacking, the whole docstring thingy might could use the power of the rdml.
13:09:41 <crc> rxforth 1c is up on the google group
13:10:48 <Raystm2> cool.
13:11:23 <lukeparrish> neat
13:13:02 <crc> to run the gtk+ examples, you'll have to use rxpkg to get the current library module :)
13:13:05 <lukeparrish> Raystm2: would pipe stack diagrams work? I wonder... : foo | a b -- c \ bar baz ;
13:13:33 <Raystm2> stack diagrams are in parens, tipically...
13:14:04 <lukeparrish> ooh, would be backwards-compatible with most existing pipe comments since parse goes to end of line anyway 
13:14:27 <lukeparrish> yeah. I was thinking a key easier to hit would be better
13:14:45 <Quartus> I strongly disagree with that idea.
13:14:53 <Raystm2> oh okay. I get the problem now. I was wondering why all the fuss.
13:15:47 <lukeparrish> : foo |a b -- c\ bar baz ;
13:17:27 <lukeparrish> parens are counter-intuitive. in math, we are used to them meaning either "do this first" or "feed this into a function". having them mean "do nothing" is kind of strange.
13:17:47 <Quartus> They're being used parenthetically, as in written prose.
13:19:14 <Quartus> Or, perhaps more illustratively: they're being used parenthetically (as in written prose), not mathematically.
13:19:33 <lukeparrish> "say this in a lower tone, it is important information that would otherwise impede the flow of dialogue"
13:19:49 <Raystm2> Besides, all forthers grow up with the stack diagram in parens. I've always like the pipe commentuer because you immediately recognise that you are in a Rx based forth and that things will be retroForthish from that point on.
13:20:02 <Quartus> Correct. So they're not counter-intuitive, unless you're confusing Forth with mathematics.
13:20:12 <Quartus> Confuse it instead with prose, and the parens make perfect sense.
13:20:19 <lukeparrish> forth *is* math.
13:20:31 <Quartus> I disagree.
13:20:31 <Raystm2> The universe is math. :)
13:20:37 <lukeparrish> functions, numbers. it's all math.
13:20:48 <Quartus> Language, and abstraction; it's language.
13:21:00 <lukeparrish> well it's really more like a machine, but it's a math machine.
13:21:10 <lukeparrish> fancy calculator!
13:21:20 <Raystm2> math is language... /me persists for no-good reason.
13:21:24 <lukeparrish> :)
13:21:34 <Quartus> A narrow view, and one at odds with the aspects of good Forth.  Naming is key; naming is language.
13:22:04 <lukeparrish> naming of math symbols.
13:22:42 <Raystm2> besides, RPN makes the need for mathematical parens obsolete, doesn't it?
13:22:44 * lukeparrish persists for no good reason as well :)
13:22:49 <Quartus> Math is a subset of language; Forth is a subset of language.  That doesn't mean math=Forth, as they're different subsets, and use different alphabets, different semantics, different concepts.  
13:23:59 <Raystm2> here is a Venn diagram intersecting those languages, as you can see, there are intersections and there are outersections...
13:24:00 <lukeparrish> hmm. forth is a subset of language, which includes math as it's (major?) component.
13:24:53 <lukeparrish> I guess programming (of any kind) includes both linguistic and math elements.
13:26:11 <lukeparrish> (some programming might exclude language elements... but that's debatable, since any semantic could be termed "language" by definition.)
13:26:12 <Quartus> At any rate, the use of ( ) for comments in Forth is not at all at odds with the idea of Forth as a human language, like English.
13:27:25 <lukeparrish> well, it seems to mess with the flow of it for me. maybe I'll get used to it eventually, but that doesn't mean there's no better way to approach it.
13:28:55 <Quartus> It's one of a few conventions that goes back to the earliest days of Forth; it's well-accepted.  To vary it is to ghettoize your own code.  That may not concern you, of course.
13:29:36 <lukeparrish> I'm bold that way. When it suits me. :)
13:30:00 <Raystm2> :)
13:30:34 <Quartus> It seems to me that | is no easier to type than (.
13:30:39 <Raystm2> "Forth, things written in stone are softer then they appear."
13:30:47 <lukeparrish> hey I could do something really strange like use colors instead of punctuation :)
13:31:13 <Raystm2> NO! Stop! Go back! It's a trap!
13:31:48 <lukeparrish> it's easier. less stretching. also, the closing mark in that case could be \, which has no shifting.
13:32:30 <lukeparrish> (could vary in easiness depending on the keyboard. mine is right by my pinky.)
13:32:54 * Raystm2 is so used to hitting backspace that the pipe combo is actually a smidge easier to hit.
13:32:56 <Quartus> Stretching?  ( is left-little-finger on shift, right-second-finger on 9.  | is left-little-finger on shift, right-little-finger on \.  Much further away.  At any rate the effort is pretty similar.
13:33:59 <lukeparrish> also ( and ) are on different keys. | and \ are on the same key. less mental switching.
13:34:27 <Quartus> They are not, however, paired delimiters in any accepted way.
13:35:01 <lukeparrish> why would a forther care about that? : and ; aren't, outside of the forth community.
13:36:02 <Quartus> They're not used as paired delimiters in Forth, though.  : is a defining word that takes an argument.  ; is a sentinel of a sort to end the definition.  Like the words BEGIN and END in some languages; those aren't paired delimiters either.  ( ) are.  [ ] are.  { } are.
13:39:19 <lukeparrish> not sure I see the distinction.
13:39:51 <lukeparrish> every : ends with a ;, so they are paired.
13:40:09 <lukeparrish> since they start and end something, I'd call them delimeters.
13:40:58 <lukeparrish> s/delimeters/delimiters/
13:41:57 <Quartus> I wouldn't.  But supposing you do call them delimiters; | and \ have no history behind them at all as a pair of delimiters.  The semantic meanings of \ in Forth are already well known, and | has other computing connotations.  They don't pair visually or conceptually.
13:43:25 <Raystm2> besides, what do you do when you want to parse a directory and you need \ ?
13:43:46 <crc> use /
13:43:55 <Raystm2> :) okay. thanks :)
13:44:34 <crc> it is recognized by both windows and unix systems, so there's no reason to force \ as the directory separator inside a program
13:44:50 <Raystm2> I knew that. 
13:46:07 <lukeparrish> the questions that count are the visual one and the convenience one. that is probably how Chuck Moore would look at it.
13:46:54 <Raystm2> He did, and I believe he eliminated the need. 
13:46:58 <lukeparrish> does it work visually? does it impede one's ability to type code smoothly?
13:47:15 <Quartus> I sincerely doubt he would agree that visual and convenience issues are paramount, but I'm not talking about the opinions of a reclusive eccentric genius, but rather accepted semantics and general usefulness.
13:47:22 <lukeparrish> : foo | a b -- c \ bar baz ;
13:48:08 <Raystm2> lukeparrish: your argument is compelling to me, that does look okay.
13:48:11 <lukeparrish> I think I could get used to it visually
13:48:50 <lukeparrish> it certainly seems ergonomically preferable to me, personally.
13:49:25 <lukeparrish> the next question is how many other people would find it to be such (on either or both counts)
13:49:53 <Raystm2> but something just as or more powerfull already exists. Your membership to the society as a whole is in jeopardy and your fee will be returned to you, should the counsil deam you are to be excomunicated. 
13:50:10 <lukeparrish> OH NO! :P
13:50:14 <Raystm2> hehe. :)
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13:52:18 <lukeparrish> welcome, Anbidian 
13:52:34 <Raystm2> Anbidian ; 
13:53:55 <crc> hello Anbidian
13:54:43 <Anbidian> Greetings all.
13:55:27 * lukeparrish has been experimenting with a new commenting syntax
13:55:40 <lukeparrish> : foo | a b -- c \ bar baz ;
13:56:20 <Anbidian> That is new? 
13:56:35 <Quartus> Anbidian, he's using | and \ to replace ( and )
13:56:38 <Anbidian> oh wait the ; is at the end
13:56:44 <lukeparrish> this is as a stack diagram
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13:57:07 <Anbidian> ah, I see Quartus
13:57:58 <Anbidian> Quartus: what do you use Retro for?
13:58:06 <lukeparrish> the two questions are: 1) is it really easier to type? 2) is it as easy or easier to read?
13:58:47 <Quartus> Anbidian, I use RetroForth as an ANS Standard Forth with my layer on top of it.
13:59:12 <Anbidian> 3) Is it necessary (and I'm not saying it's not, I don't know, I just remember reading once Mr. Moore saying how he initially started using stack diagrams but abandoned them in the end because he was doing things too complicated if he found a need for them)
13:59:23 <Raystm2> you have to compare them together: 
13:59:24 <Raystm2> : foo | a b -- c \ bar baz ;
13:59:24 <Raystm2> : foo ( a b -- c ) bar baz ;
13:59:54 <Anbidian> Quartus: Do you use it on Windows or Linux?
14:00:17 <Quartus> Windows and FreeBSD, mostly Windows.
14:00:28 <lukeparrish> hi erider_ 
14:00:32 <Raystm2> even more: 
14:00:32 <Raystm2> : foo | a b -- c \ bar baz ; | this
14:00:32 <Raystm2> : foo ( a b -- c ) bar baz ; | this
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14:01:01 <Cheery> Hmm.
14:02:42 <Raystm2> Apparently, in example one here, pipe does double duty, commenting out till end of line unless first terminated by backslash.
14:02:57 <lukeparrish> right
14:03:33 <lukeparrish> I guess it would have to be smart about that in multi-line functions with comments.
14:03:38 <Raystm2> doesn't hurt much to add to pipe, I suppose. 
14:04:12 <lukeparrish> in the current implementation of parse, when in the interpreter loop it terminates at the end of line anyway.
14:04:39 <Raystm2> right so this is just parsing for the \ and exiting early.
14:04:48 <lukeparrish> so \ would simply be an early escape from |
14:04:53 <Raystm2> ya.
14:06:00 <Raystm2> or on compile \  backtracks to | and compiles ( and then terminates itself with \ as ) in it's place.
14:07:25 <Raystm2> this eliminates the need for branching the | everytime it is encountered with something you can do at compile time.
14:07:53 <Quartus> Raystm2, maybe it's just me, but I can't make head nor tails of what you just said. :)
14:07:55 <lukeparrish> no, on the compile it just skips the intervening part using a macro/self
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14:08:26 <Raystm2> Quartus: sad thing is, neither can I.
14:08:37 --- nick: erider__ -> erider
14:09:18 * Raystm2 lost his perspective on that one.
14:09:32 <Cheery> crc: do you have some packages to test?
14:10:56 <crc> for rxpkg?
14:11:05 <crc> the gtk and x11 packages are online
14:11:15 <crc> those are all I've setup for the library so far
14:11:20 <Raystm2> thing is, \ is already a commentuer in languages, so where is the comment, | here \ or here ?
14:12:08 <lukeparrish> http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=224
14:12:28 <lukeparrish> the first here :)
14:12:37 <lukeparrish> |comment\
14:13:12 <Raystm2> right but if i'm used to seeing...
14:13:15 <Raystm2> \ comment
14:13:18 <lukeparrish> it might be confusing if you're really used to \ comments
14:13:26 <Raystm2> in my language, i begin to get confused.
14:13:26 <lukeparrish> and never heard of | comments
14:13:34 <Raystm2> ya.
14:13:49 * Raystm2 actually makes a point and marks day on calendar.
14:14:00 <lukeparrish> :)
14:14:12 <lukeparrish> I wonder how long that confusion would last.
14:14:34 <Raystm2> not long, about as long as learning that | was the commenter.
14:14:42 <Raystm2> and how it worked.
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14:15:17 <Raystm2> its backwards compatable, and you haven't quit the original operation of ( and ) .
14:15:29 <Raystm2> its mostly harmless.
14:15:47 <lukeparrish> mostly ;)
14:17:01 <Raystm2> mostly because it adds complexity no matter how small, to the system as a whole and to the knowledge one must aquire to adjust to the system. 
14:17:29 <Raystm2> But it's danceable, I give it an 92. :)
14:19:32 <lukeparrish> another thing is making it a prefix, lets you leave spaces out from between the pipe and comment. 
14:19:42 <lukeparrish> |comment\ instead of | comment \
14:20:12 <Raystm2> |comment \ <-- not this?
14:20:20 <lukeparrish> that would work.
14:20:35 <lukeparrish> but it's completely optional
14:21:14 <lukeparrish> : foo|blah    \bar ; would not work because there's no space once the parsed area is snipped out.
14:21:43 <lukeparrish> but : foo |blah\bar ; or : foo|blah\ bar ; would.
14:22:22 <Raystm2> so now : has to parse for | while createing the name of the new word?
14:22:36 <lukeparrish> no wait, : foo|blah\ bar; would not work.
14:22:57 <lukeparrish> | must be preceded by a space.
14:23:02 <Quartus> So the process of being different is to take something simple and well-established, and complicate it?  Forth words are space-delimited throughout, unless they're in this special list of exceptions that you have to remember.  Maybe a post-it note on the monitor.
14:23:52 <lukeparrish> parsing prefixes effectively make the following text part of the same word.
14:24:03 <Quartus> not in what you just poste.d
14:25:36 <lukeparrish> | is now a prefix (or optionally a word that does exactly the same thing, if you care to add a space.) \ is a delimiter, so it doesn't need a preceding space.
14:27:54 <lukeparrish> : test |abc--abc\.s ; works fine because the parsing word stops before .s
14:28:31 <lukeparrish> but I expect most people will find : test |abc--abc\ .s ; more aesthetically appealing, so they'll go with it.
14:28:35 <virl> the old stupid sayings..' ANS makes it right'
14:29:11 <lukeparrish> virl: you mean "trusted and well-established makes it right" ;)
14:29:54 <virl> yes, that's what I meant, and I hope it's clear that I find it stupid.
14:30:28 <Quartus> arbitrarily renaming existing facilities is not progress.
14:30:43 <virl> ANS Forth isn't Forth  but a language with the same name. I love this quote of chuck.
14:31:15 <Quartus> The only thing Chuck thinks is Forth is whatever variant he's currently using. That means, to follow Chuck, you'd be using colorForth now and nothing but.
14:32:08 <lukeparrish> Quartus: this is a real mechanical change, not a simple renaming. removing an unnecessary space requirement, and using a more accessible and readable key.
14:32:37 <virl> whatever, I think it's worth experiementing and those who like to do crazy things should be in #retro the others who love ans and co should go to #forth
14:32:41 <Quartus> To provide a facility, under a new name, that exists already in well-accepted form.
14:33:33 <virl> when it would be well accepted then there wouldn't be some people who do it on other ways
14:33:46 <lukeparrish> virl: I don't like kicking out those with opposing views.
14:34:19 <lukeparrish> very bad, since they are a sort of error-checking mechanism (if you don't let it get under your skin :/ )
14:34:47 <virl> lukeparrish, me to, but I don't like it when they reduce the fun in the channel.
14:35:16 <lukeparrish> (even if kicking out is metaphorical, i.e. telling them they aren't welcome or such.)
14:35:18 <Quartus> I don't oppose progress and experimentation; I just don't think arbitrary renaming, even with questionable minor changes, is progress.
14:35:55 <Quartus> This is a discussion channel, virl; we're discussing.  You're the one trying to end the discussion; perhaps you're the one who is in the wrong place.
14:36:16 <lukeparrish> well, in my mind the naming was/is arbitrary to start with. it's sufficiently obvious that whatever comes after the name of a function is supposed to be a stack diagram.
14:36:28 <virl> I never was at the wrong place
14:36:38 <lukeparrish> In fact, the pipe is unnecessary. you could make colon parse for \ (or whatever) anyway
14:37:53 <crc> : : wsparse entry '\ parse 2drop ] ;
14:38:51 <lukeparrish> virl is welcome here, in my book. so is Quartus. I would appreciate very much if they do not quarrel over personal dislikes.
14:39:01 <lukeparrish> crc: :)
14:43:29 <lukeparrish> hmm. I wonder if that would seriously be a good idea.
14:44:05 <lukeparrish> automatic stack diagrams 
14:50:19 <lukeparrish> it would make stack diagrams automatically more popular. people not used to using them would be able to skip with little effort.
14:50:56 <lukeparrish> : foo a b -- c\ bar baz ;
14:51:13 <lukeparrish> doesn't have the visual appeal of seperating the comment from the name though
14:51:38 <lukeparrish> : foo \ bar baz ;
14:51:49 <lukeparrish> seperates the code from the name pretty good though
14:52:16 <Anbidian> : foo word1 word2 ; a b -- c 
14:52:45 <lukeparrish> : test code with a descriptive name | a b -- c \ bar baz ;
15:02:58 <lukeparrish> Anbidian: I think placing the stack diagram next to the name is probably better. definitions have widely varying lengths, so finding what you want to know wouldn't be as easy.
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17:23:06 <crc> I updated the RxForth 1c prerelease snapshot with a better copy of rxpkg
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