00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.10.10 00:52:21 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 01:17:54 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-62-242.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 01:17:55 --- quit: Raystm2 (Connection reset by peer) 01:48:06 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-34-236.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 01:52:28 --- quit: Raystm2- (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:54:35 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-35-78.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 02:06:52 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:35:49 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #retro 06:14:30 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #retro 06:15:17 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #retro 06:19:47 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:28:27 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:49:08 --- nick: Raystm2- -> nanstm 07:15:44 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-254-115.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 07:30:56 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:38:22 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 07:41:44 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:41:56 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-68-95-254-115.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 07:57:50 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 08:09:05 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #retro 08:38:28 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=Miranda@136.160.196.114) joined #retro 09:36:10 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 10:33:22 --- quit: rabbitwhite () 10:35:30 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #retro 10:38:30 --- quit: timlarson_ (Nick collision from services.) 10:38:35 --- nick: timlarson__ -> timlarson_ 10:42:05 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:45:07 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 11:19:52 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro 12:35:08 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 12:43:35 --- nick: nanstm -> tiff 13:31:17 --- join: erider_ (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 13:43:00 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:50:04 --- nick: erider_ -> erider 13:51:40 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 14:00:28 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 14:23:17 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #retro 14:27:50 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:28:23 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 14:35:25 --- nick: tiff -> nanstm 14:37:08 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:55:58 --- quit: nanstm (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:06:03 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-45-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 15:06:35 --- quit: Ray_work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 15:21:32 --- join: Raystm2- (n=NanRay@adsl-69-149-32-170.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 15:25:57 good evening 15:26:08 Hey crc. 15:29:46 hi 15:35:04 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:39:24 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@ppp-70-248-33-22.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 15:46:34 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=NanRay@adsl-68-93-121-103.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 15:46:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Raystm2_ 15:56:30 --- quit: Raystm2- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:00:19 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:00:34 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 16:13:41 --- quit: erider (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:13:56 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 16:28:45 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 16:29:26 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:39:07 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-144-254.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 16:46:46 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 16:46:57 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 17:04:17 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@ppp-70-248-34-141.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 17:06:05 crc. Ping 17:09:44 --- join: Anbidian (i=Anbidian@S0106000fb09cff56.ed.shawcable.net) joined #retro 17:10:21 Hello. 17:11:15 hi there Anbidian. :) 17:11:32 Missed ya, last few days. What's new. 17:15:35 More of the same for me really. How have you been? 17:16:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Raystm2 17:17:08 okay, found out i'm not only diabetic but ADHD. 17:17:40 Does the ADHD diagnosis appear accurate to you? 17:20:29 ya, I think so. I mean, the drug seems to be helping, but it's early in the game. 17:20:33 I was reading up retroforth just now. One thing I am really curious about is how would retroforth perform relative to a language like C? 17:21:24 I did some benching last month. RetroForth isn't the fastest Forth going, but it's not too bad. Depends on the bench, but maybe 6x slower than C. Gforth runs about 3x slower. 17:21:41 *nods* I hope it works out. Trying to find the right med usually is not the most fun of tasks. 17:21:53 :) 17:21:54 ya. 17:22:02 gforth is faster than retro? 17:22:45 Yes, it is. 17:23:52 I remember reading some benchmark for one particular task, and gforth results were very slow compared to C up there with scripting languages so I got the impression it wasn't that close to C. Though I was ignorant about the nature of the particular benchmark I was looking at (I can't find the link atm). Good to know. 17:27:43 Different benchmarks achieve different results. Gforth is surprisingly fast considering it's implemented over C; they did a terrific job with it. 17:27:55 RetroForth is a native-code generating Forth, but it does very little optimization. 17:28:40 Is there a reason they did not try and heavily optimize it? 17:28:52 They being crc -- wasn't one of his priorities, I assume. 17:29:21 I have added some optimization to it, some of which I believe crc is adding to a future version. 17:29:23 crc = Charles Childers? 17:29:33 Right. 17:29:40 Ah, I didn't know that. 17:30:25 Is there any Forth that runs on unix/linux that would be on par or superior to C in performance? (Not that I even know C -- I am just curious at what level Forth performs at and why) 17:31:38 Forth can be heavily optimized; though not for Linux as far as I know, MPE's VFX Forth systems do a lot of heavy optimization. 17:31:59 That will approach or even surpass C, depending on what compiler you're comparing it to. 17:32:38 It's not an apples-apples comparison. Forth is designed to optimize function calls, whereas C has more overhead; the same algorithm implemented in both will behave somewhat differently. 17:33:15 If programming Forth in a Forth-friendly way, you draw on its strengths; the same is of course true for any other language. 17:34:55 I see. For another apples-and-oranges comparison, what would be the difference between a thoughtfully programmed program in C and ColorForth doing the same task? 17:35:09 I don't have any relative sense of what improvement you could get by dumping the OS. 17:35:41 I can't speak to ColorForth. You don't get any automatic speed increase by not having an OS. You're still, at best, dealing with an optimized native-code compiling Forth (not that I'm claiming colorForth is such an animal). 17:37:32 So the benefit of not having the OS is then you could optimize everything since you would have to build everything to accomplish something? 17:38:24 Optimization is not dependent on the presence or absence of an OS. I would say that having to build each facility you need from scratch is significant non-benefit to not having an OS. 17:39:13 If you think of it as an advantage, however, little stops you from ignoring any given OS facility and doing the same. 17:39:29 but wouldn't that allow for customization and coding something for a single specific purpose in a non-portable way to a degree not possible when you have to deal with abstraction that an OS may force? 17:40:04 In my experience the OS forces very few abstractions, except where it has exclusive control over given hardware, and even that can usually be circumvented if needed. 17:40:06 Yes -- I don't understand why more people haven't done that with critical applications (other than the barrier of having to reinvent a better wheel) 17:40:35 What takes up the 100mb's of code in the OS then? 17:40:59 When I installed debian linux, before I installed any user selected programs, it already took 200mb, what was all that stuff? 17:41:14 I'm not saying the OS isn't chock full of abstractions, APIs, and other helpful things; I'm saying it doesn't force them. They can be replaced or circumvented. 17:41:29 to what extent can they be circumvented? 17:41:45 Speaking generally, to whatever extent you require. Do you have something specific in mind? 17:42:22 No, I'm trying to understand in general the difference between something like colorforth and something like retroforth running on a unix/linux. 17:42:42 colorForth is an experiment in absolute minimalism. It doesn't even use all the keys on the keyboard. 17:43:00 Yes, non-ASCII. 17:43:55 RetroForth is not a minimal Forth, except by comparison to some of the fatter ones. 17:44:29 Reading on retroforth.org seemed to imply they wanted something was both minimal and pratical 17:44:35 colorForth is non-hosted (though I understand there's a Windows port of some version), while retroForth is hosted (though I think crc also makes a non-hosted version). 17:45:04 Mark Slicker also ported it to XWindows for *nix 17:45:34 Ok. I have no idea what its capabilities are under an OS, if it can interface to the OS or not. Raystm2 would be a better person to ask about that. 17:46:05 *nods* I have no idea either. 17:47:17 Aside from its minimalism and lack of certain control structures, I don't find colorForth particularly different from other Forth. Using colour instead of text-based mode changes is visually novel, but not conceptually much different, if any. 17:48:06 Remember Chuck has quite poor eyesight, and he developed colorForth for his own use. 17:49:01 I was under the impression that the forths that Chuck Moore and Jeff Fox were working with have and continue to have significant conceptual changes from what ANS Forth is doing 17:49:30 I don't find the conceptual differences significant. Your mileage may vary. 17:49:36 Quartus you are absolutely correct re hosted/non-hosted both languages. 17:50:24 Raystm2: I wonder if the new colorForth will include any networking code 17:50:52 www.colorforth.com is gone, as of today. So I'm not sure what that means in terms of a new version. 17:51:01 there is networking code in many of the colorforths. I get the impression there will be. 17:51:56 Re the OS interface, the windows version has an example of generating an output window in windows. 17:52:22 Wow :| 17:52:36 "Please remove all references to this resource." 17:52:47 Yes, that's a 410 error. 17:53:07 What conditions must be met for 410 to be displayed? 17:53:20 The webmaster told the server to send a 410. 17:53:40 is it indicative of abondonment or change? 17:53:50 It indicates what you see-- that the resource is permanently gone. 17:54:02 Whether that's true in this case, or the 410 was used by mistake, I don't know. 17:54:13 *nods* thanks for the explanation. 17:55:14 Sure. 17:57:42 anybody seen crc? 17:57:46 Earlier on. 17:58:10 yes? 17:58:14 :) 17:58:17 hi guy. 17:58:18 I see him now. 17:58:30 crc dont you have a mirror of the colorforth.com? 17:58:36 wait maybe i do... 17:58:55 Raystm2: you should 17:59:11 lol 17:59:53 I thought I had set that up somewhere under colorforth.info 18:00:20 Any word on why it went poof? 18:00:25 Raystm2: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://colorforth.com 18:00:51 http://ray.rx-core.org/colorforth.com/ 18:01:33 crc: Have you used colorForth? 18:02:48 Anbidian: regarding performance of Forths under Linux; I know that Ron Aaron (Reva, http://ronware.org/reva) and Helmar Wodtke (HelFORTH, http://maschenwerk.de/HelFORTH/) aim for performance in their forths 18:02:53 Anbidian: only a little 18:03:10 Raystm2 is the resident colorForth expert 18:03:32 thank goodness for that :) 18:03:37 yikes... 18:04:03 crc another stupid question, what was the name of that site where you had a copy of the b18chessboard? 18:04:20 you've had so many sites in the last few years...:) 18:04:34 OH forthworks :) 18:04:42 http://forthworks.com/b18chess/ 18:04:59 ya thanks :) 18:05:56 * Anbidian adds forthworks to forthlinks 18:06:02 never seen that site before 18:06:39 right Anbidian hehe, he's only got about several hundred by now :) 18:07:06 do you have a list of your forth sites crc? 18:08:26 That b18 could stand a little "I've learned so much in the last three years" kinda help. 18:08:45 rx-core.org, retroforth.[org|com|net], and forthworks.com at present. 18:10:34 I have no list of the various subdomains off of those 18:10:36 Thanks. I need to keep forthlinks fresh so I can move up high enough in the pagerank that I'm above Quartus Forth when someone does a google search for "Forth" ;p 18:10:45 heh 18:11:17 For just raw "Forth", I'm on page 3. 18:12:16 That's good imo 18:12:38 I can't even find myself and I have google display 100 results at a time not ten 18:13:12 For "forth compiler", I get a mention on page 2. 18:13:14 though for forth links I'm the second listing 18:13:28 Quartus: I see quartus forth on page 2 18:13:32 forth palm 18:13:34 you get 1st spot 18:13:38 page 1 for "pda forth" and "forth palm". 18:13:45 page 1, spot 1 18:13:48 Keen. 18:14:05 How many unique visits a day does quartus.net get? 18:14:43 Andbidian, I had an initial "read the counters every day" phase, but it passed. I'd have to dig that up. 18:15:26 *nods* I'm only averaging about 20 unique visitors a day on forthlinks 18:19:08 720 unique visitors per day for the last week. 18:20:47 I'd have to figure out how many of those are search engines. 18:21:09 Thanks. If you used awstats it reports robots separately. 18:21:39 I don't have awstats. 18:21:43 That seems like a good number to me, 720. I'd be happy with that. 18:23:43 It's really not many search engines -- lots of hits from search engines, but not from unique hosts. The 720 figure is pretty accurage. 18:23:46 heh. accurate. 18:26:21 Quartus Forth gets downloaded about 5 times a day. 18:26:38 If I'm reading this report right. 18:27:03 Yeah,that's right. 18:27:09 Directly from quartus.net, but what about palmgear.com, or are you not on PG? 18:27:40 I'm not on PalmGear. It may be mirrored elsewhere without my knowledge. 18:29:14 Don't like middlemen? 18:30:17 Don't like PalmGear. They have trouble paying up. They owed me a significant chunk of change for several years. 18:30:25 Oh, I missed some soft links. It's 7 times a day. 18:30:37 Maybe more, I'd have to go over this with more enthusiasm. 18:30:50 Ah, sorry to hear. Did you get the $ in the end? 18:31:05 Yes, years late and without interest, when the dollar had fallen significantly. I lost money. 18:31:28 Latest report is that they're doing it again. 18:33:21 --- log: started retro/06.10.10 18:33:21 --- join: clog_ (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #retro 18:33:21 --- topic: 'RetroForth | Pastebin @ http://retroforth.net/paste | The editing key is 'despair'' 18:33:21 --- topic: set by crc on [Sat Aug 05 13:13:30 2006] 18:33:21 --- names: list (clog_ Anbidian @Raystm2 Snoopy42 erider nighty_ Quartus timlarson @crc @lukeparrish clog @ChanServ nighty) 18:48:25 --- quit: clog (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 18:48:26 --- nick: clog_ -> clog 18:50:10 Quartus: You know ARM ASM? 18:50:21 I do. 18:50:37 How difficult is ARM ASM to learn relative to X86 ASM? 18:50:48 It's simpler. 18:50:55 Significantly so? 18:51:13 Yes. Different, but simpler. 18:51:49 Would it be a suitable choice to learn ASM on? 18:52:23 Well, asm isn't all one thing. It's a suitable choice for learning ARM asm. :) 18:53:01 Would I be able to write programs for my PalmTX in ARM ASM? 18:54:19 Sort of. The OS API is interfaced to the PACE 68K emulation layer, so calling OS routines means trampolining through the emulation layer. What you can do with Quartus Forth is write subroutines in ARM, for optimizing certain aspects as required, say if you had a fractal generator or something. 18:55:37 I see. 18:56:19 If you want your app to run on all Palms, you'd write a 68K (or Forth) version and an ARM version of those optimized words, and select the appropriate ones at startup. 18:56:36 I have a tiny demo of that for Quartus Forth. 18:58:31 Is that what you did, ended up with two versions of the optomized words and an automatic way to select which words are used based on the palm that runs it? 18:58:46 In the demo, yes. 18:59:21 It adds two numbers together, and does it either with a Forth word, or with an ARM subroutine, depending on the capabilities of the device. Not that you'd normally do that for adding two numbers together. :) 19:00:04 Gotcha. Sounds convenient. 19:01:03 http://www.quartus.net/files/PalmOS/Forth/Examples/pno-demo.zip 19:01:44 " 19:01:44 needs armasm 19:01:46 is that an include 19:02:03 That's the assembler. 19:02:09 Yes, needs is an idempotent include. 19:03:07 I see you used "If" "Else" in there... I don't understand what control structure could be used if else was eliminated (say, like in this task, to determine what the cpu is and set the mode accordingly) 19:03:36 *if "else" was eliminated 19:04:24 well, in general terms, you can eliminate else by doing an early exit. So : foo ... if do-something exit then do-something-else ; 19:04:34 I think that's fantastically clumsy in most circumstances. 19:04:52 I suppose you would use a couple if then statements in it's place. 19:05:02 yeah, you could duplicate the test. 19:05:12 Also clumsy. 19:05:17 absolutely. 19:05:27 I do not fear the else. :) 19:05:38 I've done a couple simple case statements with just if then and dup. 19:06:01 when you need a quickie and the dang toy language your working in doesn't have one. :) 19:06:08 you can do that, but you're executing all subsequent tests whether or not you need to. 19:06:17 right. 19:06:25 sure it's ugly. :) 19:08:39 personally I think we should get rid of IF since it brings in too much complexity ;) 19:08:48 heh 19:10:24 bed time. 19:10:30 cya ray! 19:10:47 night. 19:11:26 Good night. 19:12:15 theme song proposal for the group: "White and Nerdy" by Weird Al. 19:12:28 I don't collect X-men comics. 19:12:39 Otherwise, perfect. :) 19:14:11 wait wait; it makes reference to expertise in Pascal and Javascript. 19:16:06 You aren't a Pascal and JS guru? 19:16:35 No. 19:16:43 * Anbidian tries to hide his disappointment 19:16:49 Sorry. :) 19:18:22 * Anbidian why JS is not fully implemented on mobile / PDA devices 19:18:26 cpu intensive? 19:18:31 it's a dog-slow memory hog. 19:19:53 ah, I see. 19:21:20 --- join: erider_ (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 19:27:17 --- quit: Anbidian ("night all") 19:30:23 --- quit: erider (Success) 19:42:09 --- join: erider__ (n=erider@nc-67-77-215-167.dyn.embarqhsd.net) joined #retro 19:42:39 --- nick: erider__ -> erider 19:54:20 --- quit: erider_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:00:24 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 21:20:48 --- quit: Raystm2 ("Should have paid the bill.") 21:21:31 --- join: Raystm2 (n=NanRay@ppp-70-248-34-141.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #retro 21:26:43 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #retro 21:38:53 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/06.10.10