00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.10.09
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01:53:03 <Cheery> I wonder, 1& looks so ugly.
01:54:19 <Cheery> hmm.
01:54:36 <Cheery> octal, oct, oc, o, c
01:54:50 <Cheery> 1.2c looks better already. :)
01:59:30 <Cheery> I think I change it so.
01:59:37 <Cheery> much better.
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08:55:36 <Ray_work> hey rabbitwhite.
08:55:42 <Ray_work> how ya been doing?
08:57:33 <rabbitwhite> fine, i guess
08:57:37 <rabbitwhite> how is the diabetes
08:59:57 <Ray_work> Getting progressively under control. I test more then I shoot-up any more, about 40% of the tests I do require insulin. Thats down from 100% in Sept.
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09:00:47 <Ray_work> Other then that?? The nerve damage, for going so long with out knowing, is quite extensive and very much a burden.
09:01:45 <Ray_work> Since last we talked, I've been diagnosed as ADHD. I got pills for that too.
09:01:59 * Ray_work /end-old-man-complaints
09:03:37 <rabbitwhite> and that just made me throw away the last half of my yogurt.
09:03:41 <Ray_work> Still thinking about other schools?
09:03:53 <rabbitwhite> yes
09:04:06 <rabbitwhite> thanks for reminding me, i have to look up schools online now
09:04:11 <Ray_work> cool.
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09:16:05 <rabbitwhite> oh, i started a neat new idea last night.
09:16:14 <Ray_work> What was that?
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09:16:43 <rabbitwhite> 15-bit 2D vectors, 
09:16:51 <rabbitwhite> pack X,Y into a cell
09:16:59 <rabbitwhite> manipulate them really fast
09:17:07 <rabbitwhite> and more conveniently
09:17:20 <rabbitwhite> what do you think?
09:17:43 <rabbitwhite> originally they were supposed to be 16-bit i tried it out last night and discovered that they had to be 15-bit and unsigned to work
09:27:04 <rabbitwhite> but it's amazing, it's like, eliminating half of the code i would have to write if they were two seperate values
09:29:09 <Cheery> rabbitwhite, yes.
09:29:34 <Cheery> but doesn't that mean you have only about 60 thousand quantum values in your vectors then?
09:30:03 <rabbitwhite> i don't know what those are, so, no.
09:30:17 <rabbitwhite> ohh
09:30:22 <rabbitwhite> actually it's less. 32768
09:30:29 <rabbitwhite> but this is for simple 2d games.
09:30:35 <Cheery> oh yes, if you use negatives.
09:30:36 <Cheery> Hmm.
09:30:39 <rabbitwhite> no
09:30:40 <Cheery> Yes.
09:30:43 <rabbitwhite> it's 15-bit unsigned. dur
09:31:12 <Cheery> huh? but didn't you put two bits to represent sign?
09:32:01 <rabbitwhite> you need to keep bit 16 cleared to avoid Y bleeding into X when doing addition
09:32:22 <rabbitwhite> so it's really 16/15 bit
09:32:35 <rabbitwhite> but i decided to pretend it's both 15-bit just in case
09:32:36 <Cheery> why so?
09:32:56 <rabbitwhite> um, i don't feel like explaining it.  
09:33:05 <Cheery> or wait. for overflow?
09:33:10 <Cheery> :)
09:33:13 <rabbitwhite> yeah
09:33:15 <rabbitwhite> something like that.
09:33:36 <Cheery> how does it go with multiplication?
09:33:50 <rabbitwhite> i think you don't do it in this system.
09:34:08 <rabbitwhite> but if i need it, i'll try to make it work ..
09:35:06 <Ray_work> You would use a cunning multiple add. :)
09:35:31 <Ray_work> that is clever, btw.
09:35:53 <Cheery> what is cunning multiple add?
09:36:06 <Ray_work> cunning as in clever.
09:36:16 <Ray_work> multiple as in many times.
09:36:26 <Ray_work> add as in accumulate. 
09:36:36 <Ray_work> it's not an good idea, I know. 
09:36:59 <Cheery> hmm, wouldn't it just be simpler to extract the values in that case?
09:37:39 <rabbitwhite> theres that, if i absolutely need more precision at a certain stage.
09:37:51 <rabbitwhite> nothing more than the word 'split'
09:38:03 <rabbitwhite> which assembles 4 instructions ..
09:40:20 <rabbitwhite> so it's fast
09:40:54 <rabbitwhite> also, shifts are valid
09:41:21 <rabbitwhite> so they could potentially be fixed point values that get shifted down for display
09:44:26 <Cheery> Hmm.
09:45:24 <Cheery> rabbitwhite: have you ever thought about 4-directional vector packed that way? :)
09:45:54 <rabbitwhite> what is a 4 directional vector.
09:45:54 <Cheery> like, each direction would be 256 numbers precision if used your way.
09:46:12 <Cheery> it's vector in natural coordinates.
09:46:17 <rabbitwhite> actually they would be 127 and why would you want 4
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09:48:06 <Cheery> rabbitwhite: the natural coordinates would be packed into one cell that way.
09:48:18 <rabbitwhite> what is a natural coordinate?
09:49:29 <Cheery> it's a coordination system with four directions, 120 angles between axes.
09:52:32 <rabbitwhite> do you use it?
09:52:46 <Cheery> sometimes.
09:52:53 <Cheery> I think I'll implement such soon.
09:53:46 <rabbitwhite> do you make games?
09:53:55 <Cheery> yes
09:54:27 <rabbitwhite> that's cool can i see?
09:54:31 <rabbitwhite> got a site ?
09:54:54 <Cheery> I've no site, hence I've not done many. :)
09:55:30 <Cheery> I'm going to use rxforth for the next game.
09:55:41 <Cheery> and propably implement such natural coordinates, for fun.
10:01:14 <rabbitwhite> what games have you made?
10:01:47 <Cheery> Only one and few prototypes, I've not really finished any ever.
10:02:33 <rabbitwhite> dude then why are you wasting time with 4-direction natural coordinates
10:02:37 <rabbitwhite> you should make a game
10:03:04 <Cheery> Because 4-directional natural coordinates are fun.
10:04:32 <rabbitwhite> ok, have fun.
10:04:39 <Cheery> And that's what I'm looking from programming anyways.
10:04:55 <Cheery> I'm not doing programs because I must to. :)
10:05:07 <Cheery> or because of the programming itself.
10:06:23 <rabbitwhite> i think youre contradicting yourself
10:06:56 <rabbitwhite> you just said youre doing it for fun not programming but you're deriving your fun from the programming part not the design part
10:07:23 <Cheery> it's not clashing.
10:07:46 <Cheery> And I'm aware from this.
10:09:19 <Cheery> I do not design things, if I'd do, the programming would be boring.
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10:14:24 <rabbitwhite> but the actual coding is supposed to be the tiniest part of the process
10:14:37 <rabbitwhite> that's the point of forth
10:15:56 <rabbitwhite> have you asked yourself what you're going to do with the 4-coordinate points?
10:17:02 <Cheery> yes.
10:17:27 <rabbitwhite> well then why are you talking about having fun with 4-coordinate points, lets hear awesome game ideas
10:17:55 <Cheery> because the 4 coordinate points is also fun, not only where it leads. :)
10:18:31 <Cheery> What I'm going to do is go -game ordered such way.
10:18:43 <Cheery> to volume.
10:19:11 <rabbitwhite> i don't understand
10:19:26 <rabbitwhite> could you rephrase?
10:19:55 <Cheery> you know the go -board game?
10:20:28 <timlarson_> I think of (fun, good) programming as an art form.
10:20:35 <timlarson_> the code is the clay
10:20:47 <timlarson_> and forth does not so much make 'the code the small part' as it makes the code/clay more maliable.
10:21:30 <Cheery> think adding two more axis to go and changing the way how axes are arranged.
10:23:18 <rabbitwhite> yeah, i know Go.  I would have never conceived that it needed 4-point coordinates though.
10:23:58 <rabbitwhite> that just sounds like making it more complicated
10:25:36 <Cheery> Not really.
10:25:59 <Cheery> Even you assign that game to a volume, the rules do not change.
10:26:21 <Cheery> just the patterns and intresting things gets different forms than in a plane.
10:28:19 <rabbitwhite> ok, i don't really care but, serously, make that Go game.  because i like Go and i like forth programmer's making programs.
10:29:50 <rabbitwhite> i mean i don't care about whether or not 4-coordinate points are simple or complicated
10:29:57 <Ray_work> okay /me took my life-giving drugs. Time to eat something, brb.
10:30:34 <Cheery> I neither. ;)
10:32:36 <rabbitwhite> well, my opinion about that is that you *should*, but i'm not going to kill myself trying to convince you
10:33:35 <Cheery> I do not care because I try them and see.
10:37:33 <rabbitwhite> ah, so the incurable tinkerer
10:39:33 <timlarson_> some like to create, not just repeat.
10:40:38 <rabbitwhite> whoa, are you saying something about me?
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10:42:23 <rabbitwhite> tim what do you mean
10:43:12 <timlarson_> nothing 'about' you, just that some who tinker are tinkering-to-create/invent, and that this can be a good thing.
10:46:37 <rabbitwhite> he's just implementing a known coordinate system
10:46:58 <rabbitwhite> how's that creating.
10:47:02 <timlarson_> and using it for a new purpose.
10:47:09 <rabbitwhite> he's making Go.
10:47:22 <Ray_work> sorry, I'm not following, 4th point? is this a 3-d go or something?
10:47:24 <timlarson_> we rarely have *new* base matterials to work with, just new combinations.
10:47:35 <rabbitwhite> Ray: i know! thank you for asking that!
10:47:39 <Ray_work> where time is require as a co-ord?
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10:48:19 <Ray_work> hey now that would be cool. the 4th, point could point to the frame :)
10:48:43 <timlarson_> take the 2 positive and 2 negative axis on a flat plane go board,
10:48:44 <Ray_work> save all the  frames, number them, move back and forth thru time on a whim.
10:49:02 <timlarson_> and bend two opposite ones up some, and the other two down some.
10:49:19 <timlarson_> now these same four axes are all positive and describe points in a volume,
10:49:31 <timlarson_> instead of being mixed positive and negative and describing points in a plane.
10:49:32 <Ray_work> wait, isn't that 2 co-ords, technically, cus like i'm the least educated here and ya need to spell everything s l o w ly for me, :)
10:49:46 <Ray_work> are you typing slowly?
10:50:10 <timlarson_> y e s ,  I  a m .
10:50:14 <Ray_work> :)
10:50:14 <timlarson_> ;)
10:50:20 <rabbitwhite> bye
10:50:26 <timlarson_> bye rabbitwhite 
10:50:26 <Ray_work> bye rog
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10:53:44 <Cheery> bye
10:56:07 <timlarson_> Ray_work: usually we call those 2 positive + 2 negative axes "2 axes", due to our math teachers' lack of imagination :)
10:56:36 <Ray_work> I see.
10:56:48 <Ray_work> when I close my eyes, I see.
10:57:05 <timlarson_> deep
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14:31:04 <erider> crc: ping
14:37:18 <crc> good evening
14:37:21 <crc> erider: pong
14:37:33 <Quartus> hey crc.
14:37:53 <crc> hi Quartus
14:38:16 * crc is still having no luck finding the cause of the problem with the Windows port
14:38:36 <erider> question crc
14:38:48 <crc> yes?
14:39:00 <erider> you created retro completely in fasm?
14:39:07 <crc> no
14:39:14 <crc> it was originally written in nasm
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14:39:36 <erider> completely
14:39:38 <crc> Ron and I moved it to FASM a few years ago
14:39:44 <crc> almost completely
14:40:01 <erider> what do you mean by almost
14:40:09 <crc> since version 4 it has always had at least part written in forth
14:40:36 <erider> ah ok 
14:40:55 <erider> was it hard to manages in nasm?
14:41:17 <erider> and how long did it take 
14:41:17 <crc> it was slightly more difficult than with fasm
14:41:23 <crc> to implement?
14:41:26 <erider> yes 
14:41:43 <erider> and did you do it by yourself?
14:41:57 <crc> tcn (the original developer) spent a couple of months working out the basic design/code
14:42:23 <crc> I took over after that; others have helped through the years
14:42:59 <crc> e.g., the original BSD ports were done by others, tcn did the first linux port, Ron Aaron (reva's developer) did the windows port
14:43:07 <erider> so was it hard to template and test with assembly 
14:43:13 <crc> yes
14:43:46 <crc> but a large part of that was due to the fact that prior to release 6.x it ran only as an operating system, not under a host OS 
14:43:49 <erider> I wish C had a feature like lisp darn 
14:44:16 <erider> ah I see
14:44:29 <Quartus> Not that it relates to retro, but I've never found any problem testing Forth written in assembly.  My regression tests are written in Forth, and I feed them to the system after every build.
14:45:15 <crc> once the linux port was completed testing became significantly easier
14:46:05 <erider> Quartus: so you made forth assembly too
14:46:24 <Quartus> Yes.  We had this conversation once before.
14:46:40 <erider> that right :)
14:48:51 <erider> btw I saw poppavic in action today 
14:49:03 <Quartus> You mentioned.  ##c.
14:49:46 * crc is happy to not have to listen to his garbage anymore
14:49:49 <erider> crc: did you use gdb to debug your nasm code?
14:50:03 <crc> yes
14:50:48 <crc> though I don't anymore. I can normally find the occasional problems without gdb or other debuggers now. (other than this bug in the windows port while loading files....)
14:51:22 <crc> I think I may just start on the new file loading code and see if that fixes it
14:51:55 <erider> hmm 
14:52:05 <erider> sounds like a task 
14:52:19 <crc> I hate Windows :|
14:52:58 <erider> I like it because I have ease but I have moved on 
14:53:43 <crc> I just find it hard to be productive on Windows, and I really dislike coding for Win32
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15:13:18 <erider> crc: do you have you design template on your site?
15:15:51 <crc> I mostly use templates from http://www.openwebdesign.org/ and gradually customize them to meet my current needs
15:16:58 <erider> :) for retro I was referring 
15:17:30 <crc> ahh, no
15:17:45 <Quartus> programming templates?  Is there even such a thing for assembler programming?
15:18:21 <erider> I guess there is because its programming 
15:18:26 <crc> I've encountered some, for gui win32 programs
15:19:02 <erider> let me explain 
15:19:50 <erider> I'm talking about flowchart to a design template and it can be top down or bottom up 
15:20:58 <erider> no one is going to sit at the computer and just start typing instruction especially not in assembly 
15:21:22 <crc> I have :)
15:21:23 <erider> that could be difficult 
15:21:27 <crc> yup
15:21:55 <erider> wow!
15:22:03 <crc> most of the design work was already done when I took over development of RetroForth, thankfully
15:22:26 <erider> hmm neat 
15:22:37 <Quartus> I have never flowcharted an application.
15:23:19 <erider> really 
15:23:48 * crc has, but only after the basic prototypes are working, and only to show clients who ask for such things
15:23:54 <erider> Quartus: had do you keep the plan straight
15:24:34 <Quartus> I may document, outline, plan, but I've never done the dumbass stencil & arrows flowcharting.
15:24:49 <erider> :) I'm most be just talking from what they teach us in school 
15:25:14 <crc> you shouldn't need to do flowcharts often
15:25:43 <crc> they're more trouble than they're worth 
15:26:22 <erider> hmm ok 
15:27:26 <Quartus> graphical representations of procedural program flow are not useful to me.
15:28:29 <erider> I'm learning 
15:29:10 <Quartus> I guess an interpretive abstract oil-painting might be nice, for some software.
15:29:41 <Quartus> People who need little diagrams to follow what code is doing are not the people who need to know how it works.
15:31:22 <erider> when I said flowchart I'm not referring to the big graph paper thingy
15:37:05 <Quartus> Some other kind of paper?
15:37:16 <Quartus> Another kind of chart that indicates flow?
15:39:35 <erider> huh?
15:39:50 <Quartus> what were you referring to when you said 'flowchart'?
15:41:53 <erider> ah something more like documentation or design plan. something to follow
15:42:27 <Quartus> Usually you're coding to some kind of specification.
15:42:33 <Quartus> In other words, you have a goal.
15:43:05 <Quartus> Forth encourages experimentation in finding a good approach; then you build on that.  It's entirely possible to build apps this way without ever formally documenting a design.
15:43:10 <erider> exactly but I usually try to write my goals down 
15:43:49 <Quartus> I also manage to write software without ever using 'design patterns'; I had to look up what they were when I first heard the term being bandied about.
15:43:49 <erider> that was one of the things I like about lisp 
15:45:35 <erider> interesting
15:46:13 <Quartus> They are apparently pre-coded outlines to overcome the deficiencies of a given programming language.
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16:26:04 <Raystm2> hi.
16:27:23 <crc> hi Ray
16:28:35 <Raystm2> good day?
16:30:13 <crc> yes
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16:45:49 <virl> hi crc
16:50:38 <crc> hi virl
16:51:26 <virl> I did some lines of a readline support code, so that <-, ->, etc. doesn't prints stupid things to console
16:52:35 <crc> <- = backspace? or arrow?
16:53:44 * crc uses rlwrap fairly often to get readline functionality without having to compile it into programs
16:54:32 <virl> arrow keys..
16:54:44 <virl> rlwrap?
16:55:03 <crc> http://utopia.knoware.nl/~hlub/rlwrap/
16:55:32 <crc> I have it installed and can do "rlwrap rxforth" to get readline functionality in rxforth for example
16:56:36 <virl> ah.. that's nice
17:03:25 <crc> it's handy
17:09:24 <virl> gn8
17:09:34 <virl> see ya
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17:49:29 <erider> crc I'm trying to debug some assembly code that I wrote with gdb. what the program does is takes the two command line arguments and prints them to stdout. how do you examine the registries or look at the data to see the text? I'm using the print command and display but I can see the string ie. foo bar if they were the command line arguments
18:46:40 <erider> good night all
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23:53:11 <stas2> privet 
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