00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.09.06 00:43:49 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-19-23.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 03:51:22 --- quit: Snoopy42 (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:54:15 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-119-000.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 03:54:24 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-119-000.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 03:58:19 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 03:58:34 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 05:52:30 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #retro 05:54:01 --- quit: timlarson_ (Client Quit) 05:54:14 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #retro 06:14:58 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #retro 06:15:33 Good morning. 07:39:48 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #retro 09:47:25 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=roger@136.160.196.114) joined #retro 09:55:41 --- quit: rabbitwhite () 10:34:37 --- join: rabbitwhite (n=roger@136.160.196.114) joined #retro 11:31:15 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:31:54 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-108-185.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 11:48:18 --- quit: rabbitwhite () 13:07:58 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 13:27:31 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 13:33:10 --- quit: Quartus_ ("used jmIrc") 14:23:30 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 15:02:34 --- quit: Ray_work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 15:18:56 --- join: Quartus_ (n=Quartus_@209.167.5.1) joined #retro 15:40:10 Quartus: try http://retroforth.org/903.zip 15:40:40 I started reapplying the changes by hand to the 9.2.10 codebase 15:40:49 hopefully it will work this time... 15:41:43 hi crc. I will as soon as I'm back in the office. 15:42:18 ok 16:19:01 hi crc hi Quartus. 16:19:03 oops 16:19:07 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 16:20:55 hi ray 16:24:11 What is going on today, anything? 16:26:28 * Raystm2 reading your conversation with astrobe this afternoon. 16:32:38 * Raystm2 has found time for the handbooks that I am charged with keeping. 3am-6:30am. I seem to be waking at 3am everyday, and now I will use this time to be productive. 16:38:05 Today not much more than that conversation with astrobe, not here anyway :) 16:45:46 crc, crashes at the same spot. 16:45:59 oh hang on. I didn't move the right exe. 16:47:00 Ok, it passes most but not all of my tests. I'll try and figure out why. 16:47:11 ok 16:50:00 Ok, my qsort benchmark commas 140,000 values into memory. That's not working now, it's overwriting code or something. Is dataspace smaller? 16:50:14 I don't believe so 16:50:16 * crc checks 16:51:11 no 16:52:06 Now I can only comma-in 58000 cells, instead of the 140000 I could before. 16:53:11 Except for that weirdness, all my tests pass. 16:53:30 odd; I do seem to have reduced the memory 16:53:35 * crc will fix this 16:54:16 I haven't tested 4.8. 16:54:24 --- quit: Quartus_ ("used jmIrc") 16:56:41 Can you let me know what words you optimized out of faster.fs? 16:56:45 ok, I updated the 903.zip and 903.tar.gz 16:56:54 in this build, none of them 16:57:09 Something, somewhere, because my faster.fs now crashes it. 16:57:19 odd 16:58:21 I am using include on the assembler, which is 22k. Is that too long? 16:59:14 no, includes have a cap of 32k at the moment 16:59:46 The dataspace is still short. 16:59:55 try: there here - . 17:00:14 hang on, I didn't re-copy the thing properly again. You changed the pathname. 17:00:22 ahh, sorry :( 17:00:54 Ok. Just including the assembler crashes it. My first guess is it's because the assembler uses the wordlist stuff. 17:02:18 Weirder. Loading the assembler with -f works. Including it doesn't. 17:02:35 Or more specifically, including it from a -f file. 17:02:57 There's a lot of hair in all this -f/include/size-limit stuff you've got going on. 17:03:03 I know 17:03:14 I intend to rip it out and rewrite it properly 17:03:21 I sing the hymn of line-by-line to you again. :) 17:04:11 Ok, except for that I can't load faster.fs because it's foolish enough to try to include asm.fs, it passes the rest of what I've got. 17:04:36 ok 17:05:04 so my next task is to start redoing the entire file loading mess :) 17:05:30 Yes. Without being able to load my optimizations, this is one SLOOOW build. :) 17:06:23 REFILL is your friend, and SAVE-INPUT/RESTORE-INPUT. From that you can build INCLUDED and thus INCLUDE, and all of this will be a distant memory. :) 17:18:08 I wish I had the experiance to keep up with, nay help with this. I'm thankful for the things i'm learning here. 17:18:30 Write some code under the ans layer, Raystm2 -- see if you run into any kinks. 17:18:34 That'll help. 17:19:22 I've started to make changes to RxChess0.0.2, going into 0.0.3 that will allow me to ANS-ify. 17:19:29 Good deal. 17:20:20 I may split the development into a pure RxForth version and an ANS, possibly in the same file as a hidden choice. 17:24:02 That sounds like a maintenance headache. 17:41:39 I defer to your greater experiance. 17:41:48 I'm certain you are correct. 18:06:37 Thought it may sound like heresy, RetroForth ans ANS Forth aren't all that far apart from each other. 18:06:47 er, and. 18:07:34 rf has a handful of optimization words, like >if and =if. Some words that combine an exit, like 0; and ;then. 18:07:35 You know better then I. I'm finally getting some sence of comfort working in it. 18:07:45 ya. 18:08:13 Otherwise it's quite straightforward, the remaining differences are arbitrary quirks. 18:08:25 Not conceptual or structural differences, for the most part. 18:08:56 Certainly all of the >if and ;then and 0; stuff could be added to a standard Forth in a few lines of code. 18:10:22 i understand that, 18:16:35 As could the various standard words that are only named differently in rf. It would be simpler to bring a standard system appreciably in line with rf than it is to go the other direction, because the standard system would already have the error handling, etc. 18:21:03 I infered the same from your earlier comments. 18:22:04 I'm sure this would greatly aggravate somebody like, say, virl, who believes rf is utterly different from what he believes standard forth is, but it's true nonetheless. :) 18:22:26 This leads to convincing crc to start a standard forth built on to the "core" for portablitly, then implement the flavor on top of that. 18:22:37 yes hehe, dang you're good. :) 18:23:17 Well, the ans layer I've written gives makes it (almost) standard-compliant at this point, even if rf itself is something of a shifting surface on which to stand. 18:23:50 I mean, there is a reason it's a standard. Greater minds then mine have had hours to play with Forths. 18:24:18 Even i fthey can't agree what that stqandard is. 18:25:10 Well, those who know it well only argue very fine points of it. 18:27:07 I don't claim it's the sine-qua-non of programming languages, but it describes a very sound Forth model. I am always surprised at the animosity it generates in some people, particularly those who are deliberately unfamiliar with the actual text of it. 18:30:28 They read that Forth-prime-user doesn't see the need and that's all they need to read. 18:31:16 I'm not sure the reaction is even that rationally-based. 18:31:19 And Chuck is right too. But still, you won't get a missile contract with a language that you can't lawyer over the finer points. 18:32:10 In that case, it's just plain laziness. 18:32:42 Learn it, live it, bitching rights are set to on. Otherwise, shut-up. 18:32:59 I'm still learning it. I don't bitch either way. 18:34:23 I find it extremely curious when I encounter inflexibility in a programmer. I expect the opposite. 18:34:27 Frankly, what I do with it is so unimportant to the rest of the universe that I don't even care if i'm in Standard or not from word to word. But I would like to think that i'm learning to use the standard properly. 18:35:31 Yes! Programmers -- the word has connotations of being slightly above norm, atleast as pertains to problem solving. 18:35:51 But C lets anyone program. hehe. :) 18:35:51 Well, that, and it should have to mean adaptability -- the hardware and software change all the time. 18:36:06 You said it. 18:37:56 These folks with the un-adaptability problem... should have to sell the language to someone to earn a living for a while. See how adaptable you become with every nuance of the sale. 18:39:09 To program at all suggests a certain intellectual capactiy. Admittedly I assume it; perhaps I should wait to see some -- or any -- code before giving the benefit of the doubt. :) 18:42:31 Yes, anyone can download a language, program a tutorial, assume they know everything, expound that fact on irc, and drive real programmers like you nuts. I mean, you have great patience for those active in learning... 18:43:36 so does crc. He suffers me well. Or that's the impression you both leave me with. :) 18:45:20 It's enjoyable to teach someone who wants to learn. Not always easy even then. 18:46:31 But I really enjoy learning; I think teaching (when you have a good student!) is the same thing in the other direction. When I teach I understand the material better. 18:47:42 :) I think you learn what you know and reinforce it when you teach. 18:48:07 I can't remember who said that you don't really know a subject until you've written a book on it. 18:48:54 Hope it's someone prolific like Asimov or the like. 18:49:29 I don't know, I think it predates him. 18:55:24 hehe new Google search feature suggestion. "Who Said:" 18:55:35 Where's my million? huh? 18:57:44 heh 19:00:32 Basically it returns the saying from any one of a number of compilation books on sayings. Easy. 19:01:16 There are a few big sites for quotations now; I just checked one for the book-writing quote, but it isn't turning up. 19:09:58 I've been watching the Stanford video recordings of Dr. Knuth's lectures on mathematical writing, from '87. 19:11:28 Where? online? 19:11:40 Yup, deep in the stanford site. 19:11:52 You have to know someone to get a link? 19:11:55 :) 19:12:47 Knowing me helps: http://scpd.stanford.edu/scpd/students/Dam_ui/pages/ArchivedVideoList56K.asp?Include=knuthMath 19:13:48 :) thanks. 23:39:31 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/06.09.06