00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.08.09 00:34:22 anyone awake 01:12:02 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-20-242.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 01:21:47 hi Cheery 01:24:59 hi erider 04:04:14 --- join: jas2o (n=jas2o@WNPP-p-203-54-32-48.prem.tmns.net.au) joined #retro 04:10:17 --- quit: jas2o ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]") 06:15:57 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #retro 06:26:58 --- quit: erider (Connection timed out) 06:42:29 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 06:42:33 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:48:37 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 06:50:49 hi erider 06:51:02 hi virl 06:51:18 what's going on? 06:51:27 good morning 06:51:47 ah, ok. 06:52:06 I'm starting my day with forth conditional 06:52:29 I think I got the stack fiddling sorted 07:04:12 virl: what are you working on? 07:09:19 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #retro 07:19:06 on a bytecode interpreter which implements a forth like language. 07:20:28 --- quit: erider ("I don't sleep because sleep is the cousin of death!") 07:25:02 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 07:27:26 hi again.. 07:28:11 hi I was just check out one of my friends irc server 07:29:59 s/check/checking 07:30:02 gah, I'm totally out of ideas today. 07:36:00 Cheery: what are you thinking about 07:36:19 I'm thinking what would I think. 07:37:39 about 07:38:45 I'm just wondering. 07:39:22 How would one construct a program into graph? 07:40:44 would the graph be a like vector for code, or code itself? 08:01:27 alice is like a graph isn't 08:01:53 alice? you mean that irc bot? 08:02:53 hi no its a language for kids to programming visually 08:03:34 is there a socket library for forth? 08:04:24 well, yes and no. 08:04:43 virl: what do you mean 08:07:53 it depends on the forth system 08:09:12 ok retro or gforth 08:09:38 there is a rudimentary socket lib for retro's linux port 08:10:16 http://retroforth.org/projects/darcs/RetroIRC/netclient.f 08:10:44 horray! I fixed a fucking dumb little small shitty error, ugh! 08:11:22 I hate it when something small like < and not a <= makes a big difference. 08:14:55 docl: have you use it 08:15:43 docl, do you hate it also, when you sit for hours on an error which is only caused by a wrong choosen logic operator? 08:17:52 docl: have you use the socket library 08:30:39 it's a mathematical proof that mathematicians make the worst programmers 08:31:59 yeah I have used the sockets a little, not much 08:32:40 futhin and me were working on a mud server, and managed to make an echo server 08:33:03 yeah 08:33:21 i got it to the point that its a multi-user echo server 08:33:23 virl: I know exactly what you mean. the littlest errors are hard to spot 08:33:38 but its got absolutely no error handling, it doesn't handle people disconnecting 08:33:54 hmm we should revisit it sometime 08:34:15 yeah i kinda feel bad i didn't finish it properly 08:34:18 you have the code somewhere? 08:34:23 public domain? 08:34:24 futhin, why are mathematicians the worst coders? 08:34:25 because i know crc probably would've coded a web server with it 08:34:27 or something like that 08:34:45 virl: i was just trolling cheery & slava 08:34:55 oh, slava's not in here 08:35:03 hehe 08:35:04 oh? slava is a mathematician? 08:35:06 timlarson: yup 08:35:20 well, that would explain his sight of programming.. 08:35:54 eh, view of programming. 08:36:05 I may be interested in that code if you want to share it. 08:36:19 the multi-user echo server? 08:36:43 yes 08:39:00 I'm not mathematician. 08:40:20 Cheery: you were talking about graphs in the mathematical sense right? like how the travelling salesman problem is sometimes presented in 08:40:53 timlarson: ok, the code is: http://thin.bespin.org/chatserv+.rf 08:41:03 futhin: well... what do you mean in the mathematical sense? 08:41:54 I love applied mathematics&mathematics in general physics, biology etc. but I do not consider myself mathematician when I code. :) 08:41:59 Cheery: constructing a program into a graph, what sense did you mean that then? 08:42:09 practically doing so. 08:42:20 thanks futhin, I downloaded it :) 08:43:05 timlarson: it doesn't handle people disconnecting, but i'm pretty sure it handles multiple people connecting and then it echos whatever one person types to everyone else 08:43:36 it's been a year since i worked on it 08:43:38 wow 08:43:40 time flies 08:45:42 docl: its look like it should compatible with other forth implementation 08:45:56 what should? 08:46:42 porting it to generic or windows shouldn't be too hard 08:46:54 yeah 08:47:16 also it should run on anything that supports syscalls the same way 08:52:09 hmm, i've got another chatserv code, http://thin.bespin.org/chatserv.rf 08:52:17 that exactly how its named among my files 08:52:24 i forget the diff between chatserv and chatserv+ 08:52:40 but chatserv.rf has code for handling the filedescriptors.. 08:53:19 timlarson: make sure you get that one too heh 08:56:47 timlarson: ok i uploaded some more stuff & moved it all to http://thin.bespin.org/code/ 08:58:04 all the various incarnations of the echo server, might be useful 08:58:18 all this code was coded in retro 8 i think 09:01:46 the echoserv and chatserv code wouldn't take long to update for 9.x 09:02:15 * crc will be coming & going throughout the day; I am home sick 09:03:27 hi crc 09:03:43 hi erider 09:03:51 I wanted to ask you about standalone program in retro 09:04:07 turnkey* 09:04:14 I did some really basic turnkey stuff for retro8 on linux 09:04:47 turnkey yes 09:05:01 crc: you know anything about haskell? 09:05:05 I'm running ubuntu64 09:05:14 futhin: darcs is written in haskell 09:05:20 that's about all I know of it 09:05:32 and perl6 I think 09:05:52 and they have a neat bot lol 09:07:03 I haven't really looked at perl6 09:09:48 I don't think the whole think was written in haskell but I think the interpreter was 09:26:20 perl devs would be very stupid when they write perl in haskell.. 09:30:01 not really because haskell is suited for interpreters and compilers 09:31:08 buhaha... 09:37:18 well I think it's a theoretical playground language and nothing more.. 09:38:29 well the have a huge following 09:38:37 they* 09:46:12 * crc should revive the old sedforth stuff.... 09:49:02 crc: did you answer my question about turnkey? I have been in and out 09:49:23 there is no functional turnkey support for the 9.x release series at this time 09:49:32 I am working on various approaches though 09:49:53 ah ok thanks 09:50:07 did you make the socket library? 09:50:29 yes 09:51:18 do you have example on how to implement it? 09:51:50 http://retroforth.org/projects/darcs/RetroIRC/irc.f uses it 09:52:23 :) 09:52:35 your the man 09:53:06 I don't see _why_ haskell, it's a language which doesn't respect the machine and tries to solve problems in a very mathematical view. 09:53:48 virl: how doesn't it respect the machine? explain 09:54:26 * erider need to setup his forth interface with emacs 09:56:04 a language which respects the machine is sequential, doesn't have a garbage collector and doesn't need a big bunch of solving routines. 10:00:30 garbage collection is a useful thing to have though, especially for more complex applications 10:02:01 --- join: crcx (n=crcx@82.206.142.2) joined #retro 10:02:38 you client works pretty well 10:02:46 your* 10:02:48 thanks 10:03:15 I used to have one that could handle ping's, formatting the output, and multiple channels, but that is lost :( 10:04:37 you are the man 10:05:14 but I bet it would be hard to port it to windows 10:05:14 crc, I think it depends heavily on the application if it needs gc or not. 10:06:15 erider: only the netclient.f needs to be ported; the irc part should work on anything that implements netclient 10:06:23 erider: and I am slowly working on it.... 10:06:39 * crc does not use windows often anymore ;) 10:07:37 crc, which gc powered languages do you use daily? 10:08:06 crc, I new to linux and I have stop using windows for home usage 10:08:17 oop I'm 10:08:26 virl: Java and .NET (for some of the apps we use at work) 10:09:04 well, those languages aren't good languages.. 10:13:32 lisp has gc virl 10:14:36 yeah, and lisp isn't a good language, imho. 10:16:41 crc, are you comfortable with java and .net? 10:17:26 virl: not anymore 10:17:36 I used to know java pretty well 10:17:50 but that was before swing, and the whole Java 2 mess 10:18:17 oh? so it _was_ comfortable to use? 10:19:31 I coded in it I think, when I was 14, but then I stumbled over the lowlevel languages and they are more what I want 10:19:52 virl: what are you talking about the lisp is not a good language have you look around in freenode and seen all the channels about lisp 10:20:28 what language to you consider good? 10:20:36 virl: it actually made sense overall in the 1.0.x days 10:20:49 number of channels isn't an indicator for a good language... 10:21:36 what language to you consider good? 10:22:00 what are you indicators of a good language 10:22:05 * crc likes forth and lisp 10:22:21 and smalltalk 10:22:21 well, a language which goes hand in hand with the machine, so one language would be forth. 10:22:41 because I hope its not java the memory hug 10:22:47 another would be C I think. 10:23:32 --- quit: crcx (Remote closed the connection) 10:25:01 and perhaps lisp, when it would have a readable syntax and would include the underlying machine into it's theoretical model. not only of it's list thing. 10:26:22 *cough* lisp machines *cough* :) 10:26:50 it has readable syntax 10:27:23 crc, yeah in this combination it would make a sense.. 10:27:29 maybe lisp should represent the list by using color instead of ( & ) 10:27:32 like colorforth 10:27:42 a bracket tree isn't a readable syntax. 10:28:07 futhin, that would be a good idea.. 10:28:16 or different brackets.. 10:29:55 I gave it up to read lisp long ago 10:30:31 lisp is easy to work with, if you use an editor that can track the () pairs 10:31:04 TE works again :) 10:31:44 haha... 10:32:26 blinds can also work easily with a computer, when they have a braile display. 10:32:51 there is at least one user of RetroForth who is blind... 10:33:37 maybe.. 10:34:21 well, the sentence meant that I don't want to need a decoder for lisps syntax. 10:35:52 ok 10:36:07 * crc is quite excited to be able to use TE again 10:36:48 you are excited to use TE again? what's TE? 10:37:16 a text editor written using the rx part of retro and C 10:37:31 key bindings, etc are programmable in forth :) 10:38:03 oh... nice... MUST HAVE! 10:38:19 http://retroforth.org/projects/TE 10:38:24 http://retroforth.org/projects/darcs/TE 10:38:29 http://retroforth.org/projects/TE/librx.o 10:38:39 you need librx.o to build the source in the darcs repository 10:40:39 well, thanks, I searched for it. 10:41:34 well, it looks nice... 10:41:45 but it has some displaying quirks.. 10:42:00 not taking the full window? 10:43:55 no, the status line moves upward the screen... 10:46:02 hmm 10:46:34 I just uploaded a new te.c with some fixes in it 10:47:40 haha.. now it has a segfault.. 10:47:43 there shouldn't be anything making the status line move up... 10:48:02 virl: what OS, gcc version? 10:50:05 crc, it runs, but has the segfault when I hold the enter button and the cursor hits the status line, I assume that you don't resize the buffer of the file. 10:50:34 the buffer is always 1 meg 10:51:40 hmm, this is interesting 10:51:44 * crc will look into it 10:52:03 ok.. then when you want to let it grow then build a stop in it, so when the cursor reaches the bottom of the editor window it doesn't get further. 11:04:32 virl: I still didn't get your point 11:05:52 but I do have a question 0= 0> 0< they are destructive on the first thing on the stack? thats way you have to use dup? 11:06:08 yes 11:06:38 ok :) 11:13:22 crc so you think a language that trys to recovery unused data is a bad language 11:14:16 no I don't 11:16:11 ok :) 11:16:47 virl: that is now fixed 11:16:54 you library is straight to the point and not a whole lot of trickery 11:17:06 your* 11:17:13 thanks 11:17:19 are you going to complete it? 11:17:22 I tried to keep it reasonible 11:17:24 eventually 11:17:44 it shows the power of forth 11:17:45 * crc works on way too many things; it takes forever to get something complete :) 11:17:56 hi crc 11:18:00 hi Cheery 11:18:14 have you had use from that assembler thing I made few days ago? 11:18:24 I have played around with it a little 11:18:35 it really sparked my interest more in forth crc 11:19:17 Cheery: I plan to make use it in the native version, if that's ok with you 11:19:20 erider: good :) 11:19:22 I think a language needs to be able to communicate with the outside world 11:19:47 and you have done that with your library 11:20:23 and its not hundreds lines of code :) 11:20:26 crc: I remember I did write into documentation that it is public domain. 11:20:42 excellent then :) 11:21:21 * crc needs to get back to work on the 9.2 release of the native system soon 11:23:18 Anyway, the fact that you and anyone else who is using rf and needs such thing uses it, allows the tool to grow into it's lengths I supposed to allow it to grow. 11:23:31 crc can you add a outside compiler feature that would compile a program into a standalone program 11:23:59 erider: possibly 11:24:00 I'm sure this will help it gain it's instructions and be really useful. 11:24:09 :) 11:24:39 I did something using an assembler, sed, and shell scripts a few years ago to compile forth programs to standalone executables 11:25:35 I could probably revive that fairly quickly, though it would lose some things that depend on the interpreter parts of retro 11:26:00 I also once wrote something similar, but in forth; still generating assembly as an intermediate step 11:26:13 eventually I may be able to use Cheery's assembler instead :) 11:26:21 * crc adds this to his todo list 11:26:36 crc: do you have any ideas how one would make programs into a graph with similar language what forth is? 11:26:42 * erider is happy 11:27:07 Cheery: did you look at alice 11:27:08 I've been thinking this all day but wonder what others think. 11:27:40 or an autocad type thingy 11:27:44 erider: nope, because I do not want to install it. I'd like to find examples from it thought. but I can't find anything. 11:27:49 (online) 11:28:41 there are autocad implementations writing in forth right 11:29:01 hmm.. I need to implement store and fetch 11:29:19 Cheery: not really 11:29:34 erider: autocad used a custom varient of xlisp, not forth 11:30:00 I'm so happy I'm now lightyears behind my previous versions of pix. 11:30:23 ah ok 11:30:50 I thought I have read in this book that forth has some part in autocad 11:30:52 Cheery: the only semi-graph-like approach I've seen was the Map experiment 11:30:55 Cheery: http://mythago.net/map0.html 11:31:47 erider: the founder of autodesk did make a language called ATLAST (Autodesk Threaded Language Application Specific Toolkit) that implemented a forth system in portable C 11:31:55 it's public domain, and quite good 11:32:09 http://www.fourmilab.ch/atlast/ 11:32:40 crc: intresting. 11:32:40 that may help Cheery with the graph thingy 11:34:03 Sean never released the code (I did ask for it), but it may be an inspiration for someone 11:35:05 yes, this may help a little. 11:37:14 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:39:38 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 11:45:56 crc: I just got an idea about colorforth and the stuff you called prefixes. 11:47:27 it'd be relatively easy to write script which colors those @*? and !*? with colors. :) 11:48:36 Thought, I think I'd need yet a special editor, or modify vim somehow. 11:48:55 so that one could actually write forth words and chortcut those colors from somewhere. 11:55:10 --- part: futhin left #retro 11:55:24 hmm. I will be happy when I build some 2d gfx libs for xell :-) 11:58:58 Cheery, what's shaking? 12:01:26 I'm so lonely in my xell irc channel :-( 12:02:12 virl: what do you mean? 12:04:10 Cheery, you know my #xell channel 12:05:20 not at all. 12:05:50 aaw. this is bad. 12:06:01 Cheery, what is bad? 12:06:09 it's so empty. 12:43:01 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-147-176.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 12:44:06 --- quit: snoopy_1711 (Client Quit) 12:51:18 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 12:54:33 --- join: Snoopy42 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-146-036.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 13:06:20 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:07:31 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 13:09:01 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro 13:14:41 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:16:51 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 13:46:15 --- quit: timlarson (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:15:40 --- quit: neceve (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 14:16:12 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro 14:36:46 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 14:36:47 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 14:45:21 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 14:50:25 --- quit: nighty_ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 15:08:07 --- quit: Ray_work ("Client exited") 15:12:48 --- join: nealc (n=nealc@200-193-224-117.bsace705.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) joined #retro 15:15:52 --- quit: nealc ("Leaving") 15:35:51 --- join: jas2o (n=jas2o@144.134.155.180) joined #retro 15:37:50 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 15:38:13 Hi. Any body home? 15:38:38 I am... 15:38:44 hi jas2o. 15:38:51 sup? 15:39:01 hi Raystm2 15:39:15 What are you working on? 15:39:24 umm... sick? I have been sick for almost a week 15:39:39 yikes, sorry. Well soon. 15:39:42 I haven't been able to work on anything 15:39:53 cold? flu? 15:39:59 grunge? 15:40:12 we think it is a cold, and hives 15:40:26 eeuww. 15:40:34 how long now? 15:40:46 about 5 days 15:40:57 but enough about me sick... 15:41:11 What are you working on? 15:41:15 won't be long, you'll be over it. I hope. 15:41:27 I hope so too 15:41:37 I need to work on the manual for the 0.0.2 version of RxChess. 15:42:44 I'm excited because this is gonna be the full blown chess, and it already runs on 99% of the computers out there, thanks to crc and RetroForth with the Rx-core. 15:43:03 what is "Rx" ? 15:43:30 sorta like Retroforth core but for every version.?.? 15:43:40 know what i mean? 15:43:42 the Rx Core is a framework for building applications using a dialect of Forth 15:44:01 right... 15:44:03 it's very clever. 15:44:03 RetroForth uses the Rx Core, and provides additional features and words 15:44:19 you can use it as a forth lib in other languages. 15:44:31 or as part of a native os. 15:44:36 yup 15:44:39 brilliant. 15:44:59 * crc uses it in a text editor (http://retroforth.org/projects/TE) to provide programmability and customization options 15:45:11 no kidding, neat. 15:45:20 interesting... I don't really understand it (since I don't understand forth) but it is interesting 15:45:57 jas2o... It's kinda weird, I mean learning forth. 15:46:04 there is only one way to do it. 15:46:09 You have to use it. 15:46:20 But it's hard to use something you don't understand. 15:46:38 So, You read everything over and over and then suddenly you get it. 15:47:01 you use it, find out you are wrong, ask crc and then the light comes on. :) 15:47:33 so what is forth cabable of doing? 15:47:41 everything, no kidding. 15:48:22 almost everything, given time and patience :) 15:48:36 didn't you make an IRC client? 15:48:42 Tippically, forth is married to the hardware so closely that most code doesn't get shared. 15:49:22 crc has that Rx-core and I think that thing will make code more portable and open doors for forth that might have been percieved as closed. 15:49:26 jas2o: yes 15:49:41 Percieved because forth is only limited by the imagination of the programmer. 15:49:42 what OSs does it work on? 15:50:13 I'm going to download Retroforth now... 15:50:14 x86 machines. 15:50:52 Itself, Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Windows, SCO OpenServer (older version), Haiku/BeOS (older version), Dex4u (older version), and others 15:51:28 well I'll use the windows version 15:51:44 do I get 9.2.6-hosted.tar.gz ? 15:51:51 yes 15:52:23 Ray uses the windows version as well 15:52:26 cool another windows user :) 15:52:28 * crc seldom does 15:52:45 i'm too lazy to learn the mountain called linux. 15:52:49 jas2o: for best results, put the contents of that file in c:\retroforth 15:53:01 Raystm2: so am I 15:53:04 :) 15:53:20 I want to move away, but I can't find a linux that works for me 15:53:21 I want to, mind you, just don't have time. Got kids and a job and all. 15:53:25 it has some "issues" when there are spaces in the directory path (for now...) 15:53:30 jas2o ya. 15:53:38 I always move back :( 15:53:41 :) 15:53:43 me too. 15:54:02 jas2o do you know that 8.3 naming convention for windows? 15:54:14 for files and directories and all. 15:54:28 sort of 15:54:39 it's a DOS think right? 15:54:42 Raystm2: that doesn't matter quite as much once it's loaded 15:54:43 years ago windows could only ... ya 15:54:48 okay crc. 15:55:02 only on the comand line then crc? 15:55:17 yeah 15:55:26 got it. 15:55:27 inside you can always use choose 15:55:29 " c: 15:55:34 right; 15:55:35 okay 15:55:44 " c:\documents and settings....\foo.f" choose 15:55:51 well, jas2o have you ever written your own windows batch files? 15:55:56 it should work ok then 15:55:58 yes 15:56:18 cool, you can short cut a lot of what you would type using bats 15:57:12 what do you mean? 15:57:33 then the only time you are gonna need to know about 8.3 file naming is when you are starting the retroforth and when you write batch files to do any shortcuts . 15:57:37 for instance. 15:57:43 I have that chess game. 15:58:19 the bat file is in the same folder as the retroforth but since i'm using darcs archiving, the chess file is in another directory. 15:58:39 so my bat file says this 15:59:53 @echo off 15:59:54 rf-windows.exe -f c:\darcs-~1.3\RxChess\RxChess.forth 16:00:24 * jas2o never understood what "@echo off" does 16:00:42 it keep the rest of the bat file from printing to stdout. 16:01:04 notice the next line tho. 16:01:16 I know what that does 16:01:36 okay see the tilde ( ~ ) in the name? 16:01:40 --- join: timlarson (n=timlarso@user-12l320v.cable.mindspring.com) joined #retro 16:02:33 is that for 8.3 ? or what (I don't know why it's there) 16:02:36 yes 16:02:51 the accual name of the directory is too long. 16:03:16 what's with the .3 ? 16:03:27 acctual one is darcs-1.0.3> 16:03:48 the last .3 there would be the extention like the txt in file.txt 16:04:03 but it's a folder 16:04:04 or atleast that's how windows treats it. 16:04:12 yes folders can have extentions. 16:06:38 you build an 8.3 file name from the first 6 characters of the file name + you add ~1 or ~2 for the next one that has the same first 6 letters, followed by the . extention if any. 16:08:04 in fact -- that's how windows really stores the name, but it looks up the "rea" name in a database and reports that on the screen. 16:08:14 "rea" + l 16:08:16 real 16:08:52 make sence? 16:09:32 * technical note: windows actually uses 2 directory entries for the long file name support. The real one (as Ray described) followed by a bogus one with the actual long file name 16:09:45 right 16:11:18 you know, dir has an option to convert all longs to 8.3. 16:11:44 crc: /me has a bye.bat :) 16:11:51 calls exit. 16:12:14 * Raystm2 used to build very extensive menu systems using .bat files. 16:14:52 jas2o: when i open the RUN box in the START menu, it comes up in the c:\DOCUME~1\OWNER> directory, as example. 16:15:05 yikes /me re-types that 16:15:23 jas2o: when i open the RUN box in the START menu and type "command" with out the quotes, it comes up in the c:\DOCUME~1\OWNER> directory, as example. 16:15:38 windows, tz.. 16:15:39 mine goes to windows 16:15:49 version? 16:15:52 hi virl :) 16:16:19 the box says DOS 16:16:24 but it's XP 16:16:25 :) 16:16:27 cool. 16:16:43 everytime I read \ \ \ or the dos arguments / I get sick. 16:16:44 oh yeah at the top the first line, I see that. 16:16:52 hehe 16:18:13 so.. even new windows versions can't save the filename as a simple string 16:19:18 well, well I completly forgot it lives in it's small windows world 16:19:25 compatibility is a bitter medicine :) 16:19:28 jas2o dir /x shows 8.3 fiile name 16:19:35