00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.08.08 00:30:18 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-20-242.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 00:45:30 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:47:33 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 02:29:38 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #retro 03:23:13 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:25:32 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 03:30:30 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:44:18 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 03:56:10 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:57:59 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 05:09:35 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:10:28 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 05:13:36 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:31:31 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 05:44:29 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:46:26 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 06:07:14 --- nick: timlarson__ -> timlarson 06:07:43 good morning everyone 06:17:41 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #retro 06:23:55 Goodmorning world! 06:31:50 gm 06:38:15 Cheery: I got retro running :) 06:38:46 did crc help you? 06:38:48 I have to compile it to get it to run and my system 06:38:51 or did you get it work by yourself. 06:39:10 no timlarson helped 06:39:23 ah, ok. 06:39:26 he directed me to flat assembler 06:45:37 --- join: jas2o (n=jas2o@144.138.54.30) joined #retro 06:50:29 --- quit: jas2o ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]") 06:59:12 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #retro 08:09:17 docl: what was your response about the languages thing? 08:11:09 I know some php, not sure I would like a web development job as much as software development 08:12:50 ok, but what kind of software development? 08:13:02 that I'm not sure 08:13:18 there's the embedded, there's more regular type of development, etc.. 08:13:44 i think if you're going to learn a mainstream OOP language, it would be better to learn java 08:13:52 or if you're interested in doing lowlevel/embedded, then C.. 08:14:01 C++ = ewewewew ;P 08:14:03 nah, c++ is way better than java 08:14:21 java is nicer oop-wise 08:14:36 i'm not really talking about speed/etc 08:14:49 it's not as stable or dependable 08:15:07 uh, says who? 08:15:11 all the big corporations are using java 08:15:16 for their enterprise stuff 08:15:21 heh, C++ is the extra C 08:15:28 java is a huge enterprise language 08:15:42 there's far more java jobs 08:15:49 and only suited for big clusters.. 08:16:18 java is a trendy language.. 08:16:22 docl: actually, maybe the best thing to do would be to look thru the jobs listed online for your area, and determine which langauge seems to be in demand, and then learn that 08:17:15 docl: where do you live? ;) 08:17:57 c++ has a lot of problems, like the template stuff, nobody wants to code in c++, its either C or some proper OOP language heh 08:18:17 coding java is like building a house with only a spoon 08:18:35 virl: rather building a house from spoons. 08:18:53 * docl is in idaho 08:18:57 yeah, those oop things.. 08:19:08 isn't it stupid 08:19:23 virl: don't let your prejudices against crappy languages blind you to the reality of the world.. java is now _the_ most used programming language in america 08:19:37 with the most jobs etc 08:19:55 but its a big world, you could probably get paid coding forth if you wanted 08:19:58 there's lots of niches 08:20:05 * virl pukes 08:20:07 start your own business and go around offering custom programming 08:20:35 well I've taken c++ and java intro courses in college, so I could learn either fairly easily 08:20:37 java is the most used language, ugh.. 08:21:29 * docl would rather work at a place with a positive-integer IQ though... 08:22:00 wah, java it's so bad designed. I can't believe it, that this crap language is really used somewhere else than for portable slowness. 08:22:04 imo, c++ is almost as bad as java.. C is more likely to have positive-integer IQ 08:22:40 docl: any region of idaho? 08:22:50 docl: i feel like looking at the jobs available online for you ;P 08:22:52 the good thing about C++ is that you may not use the OOP stuff, in java you MUST use it for every fucking task. 08:22:59 western idaho 08:24:24 of course, I'd really prefer to telecommute 08:25:02 docl: yeah 08:25:46 docl: i really don't want you to waste your time with c++ or java ;P it'd be nice if you can learn a cool language and use that, like ruby 08:26:04 or lisp or smalltalk or oberon, etc etc ;P 08:26:34 hmm. I have spent some time on python... 08:28:12 do you like python? 08:28:18 i like ruby better heh 08:28:35 yeah, it's nice. but I haven't written anything in it yet. 08:29:52 hmm. maybe I should think of this as a freelance thing that I need to set up 08:29:52 yeah, ruby is another scripting language which things it's not a scripting language 08:30:01 thinks 08:31:46 I have been planning to look at ruby more closely 08:31:53 docl: maybe we can help each other out, i also would like to get into freelance work 08:32:30 this is a cool idea 08:32:33 like using elance.com or one of those other freelance places... and also having a web site.. 08:32:55 or something.. 08:33:11 i'm also comfortable with marketing around calgary 08:33:14 approaching people etc.. 08:33:20 that's good 08:33:44 i haven't really had a good niche to focus on.. 08:33:45 well 08:34:31 i like the idea of going to various businesses, finding out what they're doing with their computers, finding the places where there's excess repetition and automating that with some custom programming 08:34:46 nice thought 08:34:49 i've done something like that twice, but without actually following through on the programming 08:34:52 unfortunately 08:35:19 well, it was at my jobs that i noticed certain things could be automated 08:35:59 my first job they were doing a lot of repeated CAD drawings, mostly making the lengths match up with what the customer wanted 08:36:20 and so after i wasn't working for them i approached them and suggested i could code somethign to automate that 08:36:26 and i started writing it in postscript 08:36:39 but then i didn't keep up with communicating with them 08:36:44 and started procrastinating 08:36:58 very important to keep communicating, even when you're procrastinating 08:37:05 so maybe if you were on a team, you'd have less temptation to procrastinate 08:37:07 communication is #1!!! 08:37:09 yeah 08:37:18 or someone to get to fill in for you 08:37:22 yup 08:37:38 lets make a channel for this 08:37:46 * docl generally feels terrible about communicating while procrastinating 08:38:05 #freelance 08:38:09 ok 08:44:46 futhin: sounds good 08:45:05 erider: what does? 08:45:24 what you were saying to docl 08:45:51 the idea about retooling the repetetive processes? 08:45:57 I have a tendacy to procrastinate myself 08:46:09 tendency 08:46:22 :) 08:47:04 or maybe its distraction :) 08:47:34 anyway I agree with you 08:47:53 oh the communication thing 08:47:59 yeah 08:48:09 but most of the times when i procrastinate i end up feeling guilty and then not communicating 08:48:13 and i still do that 08:49:02 futhin: how do you retrieve prev commands 08:49:26 in gforth its ctrl-p 08:49:26 previous commands that you typed? 08:49:55 yeah retro doesn't have any of that support, but i actually remember a program that you could run in conjunction with retro that provided full command history 08:49:56 I made a word 08:50:19 really 08:50:25 thats not cool 08:50:49 heh 08:50:54 retro is pretty barebones 08:51:03 thats its strength & weakness 08:51:11 its still growing, but slowly 08:51:18 there's really only one developer for it 08:51:37 and he prefers to focus on the core of retro 08:51:50 no worries the time I made works in gforth 08:52:24 I'm sure there is a standard with implementations 08:52:48 not really 08:52:51 I will just use gforth for now sense I can use it with emacs 08:52:59 there's the ANSI standard for forth 08:53:03 which lots of forths follow 08:53:17 but most real forthers don't like ANS-forth 08:53:46 yeah.. 08:53:50 there's actually an extension for retro that makes it work with ANS-forth 08:54:07 so if you wanted to port your time code without changing it? 08:54:13 but its probably not that hard to change it.. 08:54:21 why not show us the code 08:54:49 its just he hello world code but it worked in gforth 08:55:38 can you paste that in here? 08:55:49 question the first that that I type is the last thing of the stack right 08:55:57 there's minor differences between gforth and retro 08:55:57 eg 1 2 3 . 08:56:11 the top of the stack is 1 08:56:18 nope 08:56:20 i really think retro is better for newbies than gforth, even tho there's some differences 08:56:26 that's the third 08:56:39 top is 3, the most recently added 08:57:36 ok I see it now 08:57:38 think of the stack pointer being incremented each new element that is added. 08:58:18 futhin: but if I can return to prev type entries that is kind of a pain for me 08:58:30 s/can/can't 08:58:47 scrollback, yeah that's a pain 08:59:18 so I have to retype everything or put it in to a file 09:00:03 but if I'm just experimenting then I don't want to have to place things in a file then include them 09:00:31 yeah. I use scrollback and copy/paste a lot 09:00:49 also I write things in an editor in a seperate window and paste them over 09:01:01 erider, you can get good scrollback support by running inside of the program called "screen". 09:01:35 docl's idea with the separate editor and pasting into the prompt is better. 09:03:28 : hi ." hello, world" cr ; ok 09:03:28 : say hi ; ok 09:03:28 say hello, world 09:03:42 thats what I was doing futhin 09:04:01 nothing too advance 09:04:10 you don't need to type ok 09:04:28 no the ok is for the implementation 09:04:35 oops from 09:04:40 ok :) 09:05:10 : hi ." hello, world" cr ; : say hi ; say 09:05:11 that should work 09:05:15 in retro 09:05:28 its does 09:06:06 but I didn't have the scrollback but no worries :) 09:07:15 there is a bsd-licensed library that acts similar to readline that could be used to provide command history if it were wanted...would take some coding to integrate it. 09:07:53 as in the up-and-down-arrow command history and line editing. 09:08:19 but it could probably be coded directly in forth in the interpreter easier. 09:10:53 are gforth and retro that different? 09:11:13 erider, yes they are.. 09:11:45 ok then I will continue with retro 09:12:18 gforth is completly ANS and retro doesn't care about ANS 09:12:31 ans? 09:12:39 its a standard 09:12:52 like the ANS C standard 09:12:52 like ansi 09:13:05 gotcha 09:13:08 things like looping and control flow are implemented differently in retro 09:13:35 the ANS forth standard is horribly inefficient 09:13:58 most people that think the ANS forth standard is a good thing are interested in portability of their program among various forth implementations 09:14:00 yeah it is, but what's exactly inefficient? 09:14:55 it is fairly simple to make a few changes or add a few words to make non-portable forth programs work on other implementations 09:15:04 so there's no real reason to use ANS forth for the sake of portability 09:15:12 I think having a standard is good for portability 09:16:42 having a standard means you can code in one implementation and take the code in plug it into another and it works 09:17:02 thats a good thing isn't? 09:17:05 most ANS forth programs can run on any non-ANS forth implementation with maybe 3-4 new words and no actual modification of the the code you're porting 09:17:13 and vice versa 09:17:43 so i wouldn't worry that much about portability in the forth world ;P 09:17:49 it is not either/or...a standard is good for portability, and variations different than the standard are good for being able to do things the standard did not (or even could not) consider. 09:18:00 forth is the most portable language in the world because of the speed of porting it to anything 09:18:12 i'm all for a standard 09:18:18 but the ANS forth standard is monstrous 09:18:26 the problem is, firstly that standards don't change so they have the mind of their days in it. 09:18:50 since it does not affect me day-to-day, I ignore the standard ;) 09:19:01 futhin what would be a good standard in your eyes? 09:19:56 virl: i'm not qualified to discuss such things, i'd get chuck moore & crc to design a standard if it ever was necessary 09:20:08 or crc* 09:20:34 in the mean time, lets just do things and design things the best way we can figure out 09:22:45 well, I work on something in which goes into that direction. 09:25:28 futhin: words are not place on the stack 09:25:46 add ? 09:26:27 erider, what? well, not a single word is placed on the stack. 09:26:53 I examined the stack after a word definition 09:27:20 and the only thing that was there were the numbers I have enter before 09:28:07 and? what's your problem? words aren't placed on the stack. 09:28:27 the stack is only for numbers and addresses 09:28:37 erider: words just act on the values in the stack.. words that you make are put in the dictionary 09:28:44 just asking to stop my confession 09:30:44 so char strings are not on the stack either correct or are they? 09:31:25 never mind I answer my own question :) 09:32:02 erider, only numbers and adresses are on the stack... 09:32:35 addresses because they are also simply numbers. 09:32:49 so ONLY numbers are on the stack. 09:32:56 the rest is in memory. 09:34:31 nice to know thanks 09:37:25 strings are simply two numbers on the stack, one is the length of the string and the other number is the address of the string in memory. 09:49:47 forth is often most easily understood for people coming from assembly coding 09:50:17 and perhaps for people coming from lisp coding, since there's quite a few similarities 09:50:28 futhin: weird, I studied damn much about high level code, then I went into forth, and from here to assembly coding. 09:54:46 heh 09:55:25 futhin: do you have ideas for handling compiler/interpreter stuff otherwise than state -flag crc introduced? 09:57:10 s/introduced/uses/ 12:30:31 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:32:32 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 12:42:44 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-145-037.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 12:50:23 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 12:50:27 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 13:10:04 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:12:05 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 13:29:31 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 13:32:44 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:33:49 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 13:45:55 hi erider again 13:47:49 tks 13:57:39 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 14:10:07 good evening 14:10:23 hi crc 14:10:54 hi 14:11:47 what's happening? 14:13:22 making a quad-tuple datastore. 14:31:01 --- quit: timlarson (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:31:03 --- join: timlarson__ (n=timlarso@user-12l320v.cable.mindspring.com) joined #retro 14:31:19 --- nick: timlarson__ -> timlarson 14:31:47 what are you up to crc? 14:32:59 (I did not realize my connection had dropped for a while :( 14:34:03 at present I am just relaxing after a long day at work :) 14:34:22 a good thing to do 14:34:38 as to coding; I working on some string-related words (comparison, concat, etc) 14:40:27 asm coding for them? 14:40:34 no, in forth 14:40:43 k 14:40:45 I prefer to code in forth :) 14:41:25 yes, but I thought you might be using asm embedded in forth words, since string handling is pretty fundamental, effects overall speed. 14:41:49 I will eventually 14:42:17 speed optimizations are not high on my priority list though... 14:42:22 hmm.. when I go further with pix then I can write the first code for the local specialized system.. hehe that will be linux and pure machine code.. 14:42:46 I read somewhere, that a language which can describe itself is mature ;-) 14:42:47 (largely because they don't apply well across the entire line of x86 chips) 14:43:43 your forth already converts to machine code, right? so you would already have most of the speed without needing to optimize. 14:44:02 yes 14:44:20 subroutine threading with selective inlining 14:44:38 and what does your forth timlarson? token threaded? 14:44:46 * crc never got around to finishing that look-back optimizer.... 14:45:12 opcodes at the moment, subject to change at any time. 14:48:28 --- quit: nighty_ ("Disappears in a puff of smoke") 15:06:05 --- quit: Ray_work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 15:26:32 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:30:02 strcmp, strindex, and pack are working now 15:34:36 --- join: jas2o (n=jas2o@WNPP-p-203-54-32-163.prem.tmns.net.au) joined #retro 15:44:38 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 16:03:46 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 16:03:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Raystm2 16:04:42 Hello, Men! 16:04:55 hello Ray 16:05:04 * crc is going to the store; will be back later 16:06:51 Okay. We'll talk about the look back then. :) 16:07:05 the look? 16:07:15 sorry lookback optomizer. 16:07:31 is it like Chucks? Go to the store :) 16:07:44 are >r and r> supposed to be working? 16:07:53 yes 16:07:59 >r amd r> are macros; they can only be used inside a definition 16:08:05 there is that. 16:08:09 ah, ok...that explains it. 16:08:34 still not hard to use them on the command line, just have to wrap them in a colondef or such. 16:08:52 [[ 1 2 >r .s r> .s ]] execute 16:08:58 ya. 16:09:27 just so long as you do both in the def before returning. 16:10:37 that was an anonymous word? 16:10:42 I believe that the objectives of RxChess0.0.2 have been met. 16:10:43 yes 16:34:02 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 17:05:13 crc: what was that program that you used to give retro scrollback/history 17:06:51 * futhin has that warm fuzzy feeling from picking up 7 quality evolutionary computation books from the library :D 17:07:38 the university library had like 40 books on that sort of stuff, from gentic programmign to evo comp.. 17:10:09 nice thing about evolutionary computation, is that the best language to code it will be forth.. because i will basically be doing the evolution directly at the assembly level 17:13:42 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@CPE00119576a9c5-CM0012c90d36fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 17:15:17 cool. 17:17:03 evolution... 17:17:13 back briefly 17:17:26 futhin: rlwrap 17:17:43 hi crc 17:17:49 crc: thanks 17:17:50 i see you have quite a following here :) 17:17:52 hi slava 17:18:05 the number of users is gradually increasing ;) 17:18:18 hi crc 17:18:33 hi jas2o 17:18:42 and gradually increasing in the forth. 17:19:09 the channel for jedis 17:19:20 and i see we have an evil sith lord (slava) in here! ;P 17:19:33 jk 17:19:42 i'm pretty evil meself! 17:19:43 haha stop that. that's not right. 17:20:10 and Raystm2 is the resident yoda 17:20:29 yeah, the analogy is killer ain't it 17:20:36 hey is that an age joke-- whipper snapper! 17:20:41 nah 17:20:44 you like to play word games 17:20:54 and sometimes you talk funny out of experimentation with the irc medium 17:20:54 yes. 17:21:00 yes. 17:21:06 hence yoda ;P 17:21:20 strong the forth is. 17:24:06 noise to forth ratio ~~ not to bad. 17:24:21 well, okay bad. 17:24:23 futhin: and you're anakin? :) 17:24:37 :) 17:25:13 docl is Obi 17:26:03 * Raystm2 is a driod at the sand farm. 17:26:43 that can only play chess... 17:28:55 crc really has no equive char as he is constantly phasing between being the forth and being dad/husband/co-worker. 17:30:44 co-worker of who ? 17:31:30 that depends on the job ;) 17:32:29 I have 17 coworkers at the local branch of the company I work for 17:32:51 crc don't you float between depts? 17:33:01 yes 17:33:13 I do a little of everything 17:33:41 it would be hard to pin you to one job. 17:35:11 errand: Nan needs meds p/u + deliver to work. 17:35:52 brb, talk amoungst yourselves. 17:38:06 slava: nah, i'm probably more of a jedi philosopher ;P 17:38:42 i'm jarjar! 17:44:44 * crc is tired; will now retire for the evening 17:44:48 goodnight 17:48:02 --- quit: erider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:49:25 --- join: erider (n=erider@unaffiliated/erider) joined #retro 18:02:09 --- part: jas2o left #retro 21:57:27 anyone around 21:57:31 yup 21:57:40 cool 21:57:41 hi 21:57:43 got a question? 21:58:27 I working on it but I wanted to check if anyone was around of sleeping because of the different time zones 21:58:36 ah 21:58:47 s/of/or 21:59:17 reworking stack stuff :( 21:59:18 where do you live? 21:59:32 CA USA 21:59:35 virl lives in austria, but the rest of us are in north america 21:59:43 * slava is in canada 22:00:16 and by "us" i mean crc, raystm, docl & me, the rest are lurkers, slava is new to the channel, i'm not sure if he's gonna hang in here 24/7 ;P 22:00:35 i only learned that it exists today. 22:00:49 hmm, you sometimes don't hang on #forth though right? 22:01:09 futhin: i only have #concatenative and #jedit on auto-join. if i'm not too busy, i'll wander into other random channels 22:01:13 ah 22:01:17 i've been known to lurk in #lisp and #squeak 22:02:41 you're in 4th year CS? or you've finished it? 22:03:05 i've finished a degree in /math/, and now i'm doing an msc 22:03:10 oh i see 22:03:25 skipped all the bullshit then ;P 22:03:33 i had a handful of CS courses, mostly useless 22:04:03 i learned C++ when i otherwise might not have, i guess. and i was first introduced to scheme and prolog at university. but i was already aware of their existence, i just hadn't spent time looking into them yet. 22:04:14 err that doesn't make sense 22:04:22 made sense to me 22:04:26 i was first introduced to prolog at uni, but not scheme 22:04:31 ah 22:04:48 do you like ruby 22:04:51 no 22:05:00 oh yeah i asked you that already right? 22:05:12 although if it gets a good JIT and IDE it will be better than smalltalk :) 22:05:52 we have smalltalk to thank for extreme programming ;P 22:06:09 and hopefully that movement will move into ruby away from java 22:06:29 at this stage ruby cannot even compete with java, sadly 22:06:40 but yeah, they are working on the JIT and eventually there'll be something as good as textmate in windows 22:06:42 its far too slow, doesn't support unicode and has no decent development tools. java's are only half-decent, but oh well 22:06:49 textmate is not that great 22:06:59 for rails it is ;P 22:07:27 soon factor will have an integrated editor 22:07:40 like interlisp's structure editor 22:08:04 its a similar idea to colorforth, even. you edit your code directly, instead of editing text. 22:08:17 i've stopped caring about programming recently in the last 8 months i guess.. my interest in ruby is only for rails, cuz i do some web development and i didn't want to waste my time learning php 22:08:38 retro really needs a readline feature 22:08:43 so really i only know 1 programming language, forth, and i'm only willing to learn ruby because of rails.. screw everything else ;) 22:08:47 erider: readline? 22:08:57 squeak's seaside is more sophisticated than rails 22:09:04 history of what was typed 22:09:19 erider: download rlwrap 22:09:48 ok 22:09:55 from where? 22:10:02 futhin: if you can get past the GUI, squeak is a great language to learn. 22:10:17 futhin: you'll like it more than ruby, because its put together in an 'open' fashion, much like forth. it is also largely implemetned in itself. 22:10:41 erider: http://utopia.knoware.nl/~hlub/rlwrap/rlwrap-0.24.tar.gz 22:11:07 slava: squeak is written in smalltalk right? 22:11:12 thanks I going to give it a try 22:11:20 squeak is a smalltalk implementation written in itself (including the VM) 22:11:32 the VM is in a smalltalk subset, actually. 22:11:56 there is a translator for that subset to C (also in smalltalk). so you use that to compile the VM, which then runs a bytecode interpreter which understands the complete language. 22:11:56 I have to include or use 22:12:02 slava: i think rails is the sure thing because hell, it practically started the whole framework movement (yes i know there were some frameworks before) 22:12:25 and i think that the existence of rails and it being so original points to something inherent in the language itself 22:12:25 futhin: umm, java web frameworks have been around since 1998, and they were called frameworks, and yes, they were hyped just as much as rails 22:12:29 every single one of them 22:12:53 slava: rails is the first one that didn't suck 22:13:01 rails sucks for plenty of reasons 22:13:08 all web frameworks do 22:13:12 personally i think seaside is better 22:13:16 it doesn't suck where it counts 22:13:38 thats cuz you're biased against ruby, and you want a framework in a language you like 22:13:46 i'm not biased against ruby 22:14:22 if anything i'm biased against java, but for a high-load web site, a java web application will perform better than rails 22:14:41 i wouldn't use either ruby or java 22:14:50 for web development i'm much more concerned about rapid development 22:15:13 thats what appeals to me about ruby, as well as rails 22:15:16 if i need to do web stuff, i'm going to do it in factor. 22:15:19 the language gets the fuck out of my way 22:15:33 and the framework also gets out of my way 22:15:34 there's no reason factor can't have a framework like seaside or rails, and we already have some of the components 22:16:02 the main selling point of ruby to me is that the language was designed to be human readable 22:16:16 why does it have such a complex syntax then? 22:16:16 ruby code is quite beautiful 22:16:19 and regexes built in? 22:16:23 and all that perl $_ crap? 22:16:41