00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.08.04 01:52:30 crc: how can I write stuff from retroforth to disk? 04:05:46 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro 04:39:02 --- join: virl (n=virl@62.178.85.149) joined #retro 05:49:54 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #retro 06:08:11 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #retro 06:33:03 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #retro 08:01:16 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving") 08:27:01 * docl considers writing a c++ compiler in retro 08:27:27 lol 08:27:47 hey! what's so funny? :P 08:30:33 an interesting theoretical exercise at any rate 08:31:24 * tathi wouldn't have said there was anything theoretically interesting about C++ 08:33:06 why not? 08:33:50 it's got data types, objects, local variables... 08:34:49 I don't think it has anything that other languages didn't do better first 08:34:59 which ones? 08:35:11 Smalltalk, Lisp? 08:35:51 actually I don't know that much about language theory 08:35:57 so I probably shouldn't try and argue about it 08:36:12 * docl probably knows less 08:37:02 isn't c++ more standardized than lisp or smalltalk? 08:37:44 possibly...I don't see how that makes it more (or less) theoretically interesting though 08:38:48 hmm. I guess porting any language to retro would be theoretically interesting 08:40:01 I guess C++ could be interesting because it is so unlike forth... 08:40:10 yeah 08:45:01 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #retro 10:15:20 --- quit: Shain (Remote closed the connection) 10:31:15 Hmm. 10:31:36 interpreted C++ could be a little better than C++ without interpreter, try if you wish docl! :) 10:32:20 I have a belief one could actually build easily readable AST (lisp) over forth, then build any language over that. 10:32:30 And the result would be better than .net 10:32:41 c++ standardized? well I think C is more standardized 10:33:23 Oh well, it couldn't be run as a binary only, but who needs that feature anyway except people who doesn't know how to make money with software. 10:40:49 yeah interpreted would be fairly simple. making a lisp interpreter over forth is another idea I have played with 10:42:38 and how far did you get? 10:42:38 making compiled apps from retroforth interpreted ones wouldn't be impossible, just need to save the compiled code to a file. 10:42:44 not very :) 10:44:13 docl: what do you think you need for it? 10:45:21 proof of concept, porting apps, learning the conceptual differences of the languages 10:47:08 ok, I think you just need to study it a little. ;) What I've watched, there is a way for stuff you described, a very good way. 11:31:54 i 11:31:58 I 11:32:15 i'd like to learn how to make money writeing software 11:35:38 Ray_work: me too. 11:35:54 quick money thought. 11:36:25 I've understood the getting money from open source bases on services, not selling software. 11:36:44 And getting good money from software anyway bases on services. 11:43:08 making money writing software, interesting idea :) 11:43:54 you could make money maintaining or writing custom upgrades for software. 11:44:49 some places make money by selling support for software, or by making free software that supports the hardware they sell. 11:44:59 drivers, etc. 11:45:16 there is also a one very different model. 11:45:58 you are being paid from people to make open source software multiple subjects could use. 11:46:25 some people request donations in their software's docs, or offer a registration service 11:46:37 the bazaar model? 11:46:51 is it called that? 11:46:54 basically let people place bids on it 11:47:10 then if someone makes it, the bidders all have to pay up 11:48:20 but you'd have to be pretty good to compete, and get your product finished before the next guy 11:48:38 also there's no guarantee of quality for software produced that way 11:49:15 maybe the winning bid gets made slightly sooner, but is less stable than the losing bid 11:49:43 docl: what if you wouldn't make the competition structure into that? 11:49:47 I mean. 11:50:14 Open source's one great feature is that it removes the competition -structuring. 11:50:27 how would you get paid? 11:50:44 to some extent competition makes people try harder so it's good. 11:50:57 and another to lose their hope. 11:51:09 you wouldn't want to say a sloppy project and a really nice one are the same thing. 11:51:58 nope, but when a really nice leader from good project helps a sloppy writer, they can be more than either from them being alone. 11:52:54 about the paid -thing. there could be a third person system which maintains deposit pools or such to take care that programmers get the money by people in chunks. 11:53:35 could be 11:53:36 It'd be pure fittest survival, but you must remember there is much more than coding in life. 11:54:16 even it'd be possibly you wouldn't get well in such system, you can always do something else or to improve. 11:54:54 there's got to be other ways to make your code make you money than charging directly 11:55:34 you can ask for donations, or you can advertise a related product or service 11:56:06 of course there is. 11:56:11 but you forget one thing. 11:56:23 the market model we are seeing used today, is not really direct charging. 11:56:43 there are loooots of people between the person who creates the code, and another who uses it. 11:57:05 Some of them are useless, some less useless. 11:57:13 so one person makes the code, another gets paid for it :) 11:57:31 communism works inside companies, to drain the money from other people's work. 11:58:47 another thing: code produced by a newbie is not as valuable as that produced by an expert. your time is worth varying amounts based on how long you have been programming. 11:59:54 docl: true, but does that repel newbie from hanging with masters and learning from their work? 12:00:03 it's the natural structure how things should be. 12:00:18 yeah I guess 12:07:38 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 12:11:14 --- join: Shain (i=steve@c-67-161-56-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #retro 12:34:44 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-177-095.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 12:43:01 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 12:43:11 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 13:20:51 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 13:27:58 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving") 14:17:31 good evening 14:17:52 Cheery: the ze code looks good to me 14:19:22 I would recommend looking at http://retroforth.net/maunga/images/ to see how I handled saving the bytecode generated by my little assembler for my vm. 14:19:53 crc: thank you. 14:20:30 sorry I didn't get a chance to reply earlier 14:35:23 --- part: Cheery left #retro 14:58:58 Hi guys! I'm about to go home for the week end, just wanted to wish that ya'll have a great weekend! 15:03:02 --- quit: Ray_work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 15:04:05 --- quit: crc (Remote closed the connection) 15:04:51 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-70-110-183-96.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #retro 15:10:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 15:33:59 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:23:18 --- nick: nanstm -> Raystm2 16:23:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +o Raystm2 16:45:46 --- join: jas2o (n=jas2o@144.134.159.179) joined #retro 16:46:07 hello? 16:46:18 hi jas2o 16:46:24 hello crc 16:49:20 hi jas2o hi crc 16:49:30 plans for the weekend? 16:49:38 hello Raystm2 16:50:11 Raystm2: I work tomorrow; after work (around 1pm) I will be here 16:50:41 cool. how's the .9.2.5 comming? 16:50:59 it's been out since 8-1 16:51:14 yikes 16:51:59 A 9.2.6 will probably be out sometime next week, continuing in the realm of cleanups to the source 16:56:33 okay. I'm updated. 16:57:22 excellent 16:57:24 good :) 16:57:40 Raystm2: did you see the wiki-ish version of the handbook yet 16:57:45 (still being written...) 16:58:06 I should prob'ly read your blog to get these updates on time. 16:58:40 Yes. Infact i've had it up since you anounced it. I'm reading it, but slowly cuz i'm also trying to fix the broken chess. :) 16:58:43 I need to do a "getretro" for windows 16:58:53 Raystm2: I don't update the blog anymore... 16:59:25 Cool, I'm ashamed that I hinted that I didn't read it. 16:59:55 * crc needs a better way to let people know that new versions are out.... 17:01:50 But _am_ reading the new wiki-man, and soon I will learn how to add links in for deeper discussions of highlighted words. 17:02:37 I haven't added a link markup yet :) 17:02:41 okay. 17:02:46 tomorrow.... 17:03:19 I wouldn't presume to add text in. You've got a great flow going on here, I wouldn't interupt. 17:04:07 I'm trying to figure out the best way to handle discussions; perhaps a secondary "discuss" page would work... 17:04:29 * docl added some prefixes 17:04:50 what prefixes? 17:04:54 ya, maybe an annotated version of this very page, as a second page. 17:04:57 Hi docl. 17:05:31 hi Raystm2 17:06:55 crc: I just put some documentation in the prefix section of the book 17:07:05 ahh, ok 17:07:16 in the wiki, docl? 17:07:26 * Raystm2 needs a refresh. 17:07:29 excellent 17:07:37 Raystm2: at the top of Appendix 1 17:09:39 appendix 2 line 1 have a problem wrapping in your browser? 17:10:00 yes 17:11:46 Suggestion: More of a division between Prefixes and Appendix 1 as I thought the prefixes where " to come" and those prefixes in green as "conventions" for reading the reset of green below it. 17:12:06 rest not reset. 17:12:09 * crc is doing that at present 17:12:12 cool :) 17:13:08 fixed; as well as the wrapping problem 17:13:25 docl: you forgot \-pre at the end of your addition :) 17:13:36 ahh, ok 17:13:55 * docl wasn't sure that was necessary 17:14:31 I need to put up some notes on the markups as well.... 17:19:49 crc do I need to put something in the key box before I submit this update to prefixes? 17:19:56 yes 17:19:59 despair 17:20:03 :) 17:20:07 same as with the wiki 17:21:01 didn't know that. :) 17:21:06 * Raystm2 feels so included now. 17:21:21 Hope I didn't step on toes with update to prefixes. 17:24:31 http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=106 17:24:44 a short benchmarking attempt 17:31:32 neat 17:32:00 Raystm2: what did you change? 17:34:57 what's a quoted conditional, please? 17:35:25 flag [[ ... ]] [[ ... ]] t/f 17:35:27 and those forms 17:35:38 [[ ... ]] being a "quote" 17:35:44 (for lack of a better term) 17:36:12 oh right, I seem to remember you and docl talking about this recently. 17:36:17 I missed much of that. :( 17:36:32 that was the reason for adding t/f, no? 17:36:37 yes 17:42:27 docl, if you have to ask "what did you change" then I might just have written it the way you intended. :) I changed nearly everything but left everything you said. :) 17:48:41 shouldn't it be add *to* and subtract from? :) 17:49:46 yes 17:55:18 yes 17:55:31 did you do it already? cus I've got one open? 17:55:55 * docl hasn't done anything 17:56:16 Raystm2: I did 17:56:55 k 17:57:04 * Raystm2 gets a reload. 17:57:39 I also added a stub on quotes 17:57:48 no real meat yet; that will probably appear tomorrow 18:00:03 yikes I closed the window and lost the link. 18:00:17 http://retroforth.net/handbook 18:00:34 what else would it be :) 18:04:15 * crc has started the alternate format stuff... 18:08:15 ascii is done, pdf will come eventually 18:15:22 cool. 18:25:55 postscript format also works... 18:25:59 only pdf remains 18:34:36 hmm, something seems to have become corrupted :( 18:42:46 fixed 19:06:13 --- quit: Shain (Remote closed the connection) 19:07:50 crc, what is my site balance? 19:09:26 --- join: Shain (i=steve@c-67-161-56-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #retro 19:34:52 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@CPE00119576a9c5-CM0012c90d36fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 19:55:44 jas2o: 9.90/20.00M 50% used 19:56:02 thanks crc 19:56:23 np 20:17:50 --- quit: jas2o ("Back tomorrow (maybe)") 21:11:39 --- quit: nighty_ (Client Quit) 21:12:00 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@CPE00119576a9c5-CM0012c90d36fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 22:29:17 It works! 22:29:21 one command 22:29:23 mv 22:29:37 well, Still have to merge in the castles. 22:30:08 but for now mv will handle ep passant automatically, also will handle pawn promotes in the data stream. 22:30:20 and a list of any of those kinds of moves. 22:32:24 you can place any peice on a square with it as well. like : 22:32:31 e5 'Q 22:32:40 will place a queen at e5. 22:32:52 well, if you type mv after it it will. 22:33:30 when the castles are done, I wll use docls eveluator to make do mv 22:49:50 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:50:56 http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=107 current working snapshot. 22:59:12 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@CPE00119576a9c5-CM0012c90d36fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 23:15:15 --- join: nighty__ (n=nighty@CPE00119576a9c5-CM0012c90d36fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 23:15:24 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:31:33 --- quit: nighty__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:31:35 --- join: nighty_ (n=nighty@CPE00119576a9c5-CM0012c90d36fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #retro 23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/06.08.04