00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.07.23 02:11:20 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@86.104.205.201) joined #retro 04:07:27 --- join: tathi (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/bronze/tathi) joined #retro 05:49:56 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 06:45:11 good morning 06:46:22 good morning docl 06:46:50 Raystm2: http://retroforth.org/wincolors 06:47:19 this has foreground/background color words for Windows; it may prove useful as you work on the chess board 07:16:59 http://retroforth.org/library.tar.gz 07:17:06 this is the latest library collection 07:27:06 Hi. 07:28:52 crc, have you ever implemented paging and/or emulated MMU with software? 07:33:09 I did a small kernel with paging several years ago 07:33:20 in what language? 07:33:33 C and assembly 07:34:26 I wonder if I should do something similar to learn out things. 07:36:23 --- quit: crc (Remote closed the connection) 07:37:39 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-151-197-229-145.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #retro 07:41:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 07:58:51 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #retro 08:06:53 crc, do you know a place where I could get a good description about how that MMU works in practise and what do I need in order to emulate it with software? 08:14:13 Oh well, nvm. 08:14:28 I'm guessing wikipedia has all I needed to know about it. 08:15:13 http://mega-tokyo.com/osfaq2/ may have some useful information as well 08:15:28 * crc is trying to locate his old osdev stuff... 08:16:28 also: http://www.osdever.net/tutorials.php?cat=0&sort=1 08:19:40 --- quit: Shain (Remote closed the connection) 08:21:51 --- join: Shain (i=steve@c-67-161-56-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #retro 08:22:50 What do you think about the stuff I described yesterday? 08:24:39 I just wish I was better with low level stuff. 08:25:43 --- quit: ChanServ (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 08:26:37 low-level stuff can be very irritating 08:27:25 well, anything can be very irritating. 08:27:34 true 08:28:24 but it's hard to isolate a tripple-fault or slightly incorrect descriptor table 08:29:55 tripple page fault? 08:30:04 yup 08:30:20 fails in seeking from RAM, fails in seeking from disk, fails....? 08:30:30 there are many causes 08:30:48 disk errors don't normally cause them though 08:30:56 mostly memory related things 08:30:58 and how do you end with incorrect descriptor table? 08:31:29 not fully understanding the intel docs :) 08:32:04 descriptor table errors are funny, because being slightly wrong can still work in many cases 08:34:24 Now I'm wondering how else I could experiment with that database memory management system. 08:34:28 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #retro 08:34:28 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 08:36:34 Thought, maybe I could write something simpler for memory management to test. 08:38:43 --- join: I440r (n=mark4@24-177-235-246.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com) joined #retro 08:40:15 hi I440r 08:40:46 Hmm. 08:41:19 Maybe more knowledge would help me. :) I think I read these things you linked to. 08:41:29 ok 08:41:41 * crc will continue looking for his missing docs... 08:42:00 Maybe I understand assembly somewhat that I get the idea what is going on... 08:45:57 I gues it is even harder when you must actually create something new to reach what you want. 08:47:06 So it's not bad if I quickly get the details about how the things are already done, same time actually learning from operating systems in general. 08:58:13 --- quit: crc (Remote closed the connection) 08:59:10 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-151-197-229-145.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #retro 09:00:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 13:07:37 * crc is already doing some work on 9.2.1 13:09:39 Specifically, I added a ` prefix, which allows some further cleanups: 13:09:57 : foo x: ... ; 13:10:05 where ... is a macro or self word 13:10:08 can be replaced by: 13:10:11 : foo `... ; 13:10:36 ` compiles a call to the xt of the word, ignoring the class handler 13:23:27 crc: what's the logic behind having dup drop and xor + - and so on in rx.forth instead of rx.asm? 13:24:10 that's always seemed a bit odd about retro but I keep forgetting to ask 13:30:11 I prefer to keep as little as possible in the asm 13:30:22 personal preference really 13:31:06 ah 13:31:36 I keep assembly language listings of them handy, but seldom have to refer to them for anything 13:31:55 hmm, that's true. it's not like they would ever change :) 13:32:38 http://retroforth.org/doc/handbook/rx/RxBook.html, at the end of the page has the listings 13:33:45 ah, cool. didn't realize they were in the book. 13:50:16 crc, I think one should have better weaponry for modifying instruction sets in forth. 13:50:36 ? 13:51:07 mostly for low level things, you are doing a kernel from it after all, doesn't you? It'd be easier if you could just do everything same what you can do with assembly in your forth. 13:51:54 I have an assembler written in forth 13:52:04 (not one that I440r would like though) 13:52:15 heh 13:52:44 well, I'm not thinking about assembler, rather something which would remove the need for it completely 13:53:00 some assembly is needed at some point 13:53:34 are you completely sure? 13:53:38 yes 13:53:51 But it is so ugly compared to forth. :/ 13:53:56 I agree 13:54:15 that's why I continually work to reduce the amount of overall assembly that I have to deal with 13:54:46 even in the native system, I am working to reduce the assembly to a minimal amount 13:55:04 But actually, the assembly written in retroforth is not looking bad, I can actually read it. 13:55:09 somehow. 13:55:31 good :) 13:57:24 btw, the thing I was describing yesterday, it started kind of building itself in my head I don't even need to think it a lot. 13:58:06 Maybe at some point it starts being on place that I could actually reproduce it exactly like I'm thinking. 13:59:28 well, assembler isn't needed, only a language on which you can cleanly describe what you want is needed. 13:59:56 virl, somewhat similar to what I thought. 14:00:15 C is not capable to that, but maybe forth would be. 14:00:23 and for forth that's most assembler, well it could be also solved the long way, so doing it like me over C and then in itself. 14:00:39 Cheery, C is capable of that. 14:00:40 Or is C capable to it? 14:01:00 really, any fucking language is capable of that. 14:01:12 even java? 14:01:13 Lisp, Ruby, Perl, Python and so on 14:01:16 yeah.. 14:02:12 virl: those languages end up being assembly at some point 14:02:29 that's what I said 14:02:40 ehm, ups, no. 14:02:56 this languages aren't assembler, yeah, that's true 14:03:11 but you can transport the essence of assembly over them 14:03:18 to a point 14:03:44 as long as you can print out bytes you can assemble any given code.. 14:03:49 above a certain level, the abstraction of any higher-level language removes things from your control 14:04:06 and THAT is what I said, it's the long way of doing it. 14:05:14 crc, ok, when it doesn't act linear that's true, but anything else, no. 14:05:19 But forth is not very low, neither very high level language. 14:05:42 *is 14:06:09 to assemble a forth, you need assembler or any transport language in which you print the opcodes to a file(compiling) 14:06:53 It is not similar to those languages in sense that it is capable of being very low-level, while being very high-level way of representing program flow. 14:07:25 I just wonder if it'd be actually capable to much more than just embed a assembler into it. 14:08:07 to actually work as a kind of language to handle things what assembly does. 14:09:12 forth is as low level as you want it to be and as HOGH level as you want it to be 14:09:44 crc, is assembly necessary because forth abstracts away the registers? 14:09:47 it flows with that what you want 14:09:50 in part 14:10:08 the other half is communicating with the host system 14:10:13 well, you could bring the registers back again. 14:10:28 but it'd be just back into the beginning. 14:10:33 no. 14:10:46 It requires some clever trick. 14:10:50 you can abstract that in a higher-level language like C, but you lose some things like access to the procesor flags and optimization oportunities 14:11:11 the question is only, in which context? for building a forth system from scratch? or assembling primitives for the running system? 14:12:08 crc, well, that's why I call it the 'long way' 14:12:29 but it's possible and that count's 14:14:55 Have you already examined this possibility? 14:15:18 I'm currently working on it.. 14:15:22 (xell) 14:16:17 btw. I rebuild the system again, now I'm working on the dictionary, again. well, it goes. 14:17:57 Hi men! 14:18:03 hi Raystm2 14:18:04 crc: thanks for the wincolors :) 14:18:21 Cheery: I coded Forths in higher-level languages in the past 14:18:30 nothing as useful as retro though 14:18:33 Raystm2: np 14:18:48 you know crc, I would have thought that a windows at-xy would have used SetConsoleCursorPosition 14:18:59 it would 14:19:03 but it doesnt work like that 14:19:23 you cant get past the control window boarder to the next line or row 14:19:45 I should say, doesn't appear to work like that. 14:21:24 it's tricky 14:21:33 the function doesn't work as you'd expect :) 14:21:35 I bet i'm not forming the command correctly. 14:21:58 just one moment.... 14:22:41 I played with it for many hours last night, only woke up about a half hour ago :) 14:22:53 http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=57 14:22:59 okay, thank you :) 14:23:28 it actually requires a structure of sorts, containing two 16-bit values IIRC 14:23:56 OH you have to combine the row and column? 14:23:57 this should work; it's from the old REM that I developed for Windows back in 8.1 14:23:58 yes 14:24:16 it took me quite a while to get right the first time through 14:24:30 hehe I bet. 14:25:04 I saw a hint to that last night in the MSDN docs online and planned to mess with it today but you have save me hours of life. :) 14:25:33 * Raystm2 will go fix a pipe under the house now, be back about half hour. :) 14:26:46 * Cheery is going to sleep soon. 14:27:40 I could do this all time but my body can't. 14:35:58 that didn't take near as long as I thought. 14:36:11 Raystm2, how is cf going? 14:36:26 I've been very slow on colorforth lately. 14:37:03 I'm working in retroforth as an effort to learn how to do more in colorforth. 14:37:37 Raystm2: or you could just code a new, improved colorforth on top of retro (or Rx) :) 14:37:46 I knew a side of someone who analysed the cf source and explained it, Raystm2 do you know the link to it? I have forget it. 14:37:58 karig.net or something? 14:38:00 tathi: That is acctually in the plans :) 14:38:14 Raystm2: good 14:38:52 a colorforth on top of retro would be highly portable and code would benifit from both ideas. 14:39:19 http://www.karig.net/os/cf/index.html 14:39:36 That cf editor is a GOOD thing. imnsho. 14:40:04 the cf mailinglist is calling for people to get to gether and create a book. 14:40:34 Jeff Fox has volenteered to write about the editor. 14:43:28 * Raystm2 just looking at the karig link that tathi put up.... 14:43:52 there's your book. We should just help Karig finish the very few things that he didn't quite understand. 14:46:19 brb; trying to fix something 14:46:22 --- part: crc left #retro 14:54:11 Oh well, tomorrow I continue reading OsFaq, to that time, good night. 14:54:17 --- quit: Cheery ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") 14:59:15 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-151-197-229-145.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #retro 14:59:31 wb 14:59:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 14:59:51 thanks 15:06:49 I disabled IPv6 to improve network performance 15:35:26 --- join: silvousplait (n=trip_n_s@pool-151-196-119-107.balt.east.verizon.net) joined #retro 15:38:41 --- quit: silvousplait (Client Quit) 15:55:23 I'll be adding retro-ffi to the getretro script 16:06:48 done 16:06:59 also new in the latest getretro is support for DragonFly BSD 16:12:04 all that remains is to be able to identify openbsd 16:17:25 when retro loads? 16:18:00 oh yeah that's right. I was looking into your build file and saw that retro identifies the host to build. 16:18:35 this is different than the build script 16:18:42 oh. 16:19:00 the getretro script is designed to identify the host os, download and install the appropiate versions of retroforth automatically 16:19:15 * crc uses it to keep his various *nix machines in sync 16:19:19 :) 16:19:21 very cool. 16:19:38 * Raystm2 was always wanting something similar for colorforth. 16:20:06 it's handy 16:20:20 my systems update hourly when on, so they are always current :) 16:20:37 maybe a server hosting all the parts of the hardware drivers for a colorforth, and machine polling software to identify the needed drivers and a build script that would upload you the perfect cf for your machine. 16:20:49 no kidding! that's neat. 16:21:32 you make changes so quickly, that's very handy. 16:22:11 yup 16:22:21 * crc loves automation 16:23:07 * Raystm2 starting to sew in the console code you provided, into the rcb18.fs chess file, which is a different version from the changes I made to your chess. 16:23:39 cool 16:23:48 * crc can hardly wait to see the end result 16:24:16 being able to at-xy will make a major differance to the way I was going to have to do the moves-list, main board and last-moves board. 16:24:37 with out at-xy, I would have to do all three pieces per line. 16:25:20 did you see the board? 16:26:23 http://ray.rx-core.org/new_site/board1.png 16:27:54 the moves list fits to the left and the last board is 16 lines on the right. 16:30:59 the screenshot is a little big... 16:31:18 what resolution are you using? 16:31:19 sorry, I still don't know how to format that. 16:32:02 http://www.lowgenius.com/Articles/img_resize.asp 16:32:04 currently and during that screenshot, 1024x768 16:32:08 an easy way 16:32:12 ok 16:32:49 if that is about changing the screen size to 800x??? ya I forgot to do that. 16:32:58 * Raystm2 will do that now. 16:33:17 It looks lower-res, due to the font size 16:35:24 yikes /me now realizes that 1024x768 is going to have to be the screen size for someone to play this with all the information I'll have on the board :( 16:36:47 I run at 1280x1024 16:38:18 I usually run at 1600x1200 but Nanette cant read the chat at that res. 16:38:29 ahh 16:38:42 I want higher res :) 16:38:42 so I often leave it at 1024x768 for her. 16:38:53 I want a really wide screen 16:39:01 you have one, dont' you? 16:39:27 no, but mine can be used in a vertical mode 16:40:23 oh right, like an apple lisa used to have a screen that was longer then wide. 16:40:38 I can turn this monitor on it's side and do such a thing. 16:40:48 yeah 16:41:00 it's nice when writing papers, working on the manual, etc 16:41:12 absolutely, /me see's the benifit. 16:41:24 http://retroforth.org/screenshots/ for a few screenshots of my current desktop 16:43:23 How did you warp that irc client? 16:43:27 that's neat! 16:44:18 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:47:19 --- join: crc (n=crc@pool-151-197-229-145.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #retro 16:47:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc 16:48:32 Raystm2: the window manager (compiz) and Xgl allow for a lot of nice visual effects 16:49:48 the one screenshot shows how you can "peel back" any edge of a maximized window to see what's below 16:51:11 decent. 18:05:28 * crc is presently attempting to get his ipod to work with linux 18:08:23 * Raystm2 wants an ipod. 18:08:27 cool 18:51:59 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 19:35:39 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-142-230.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro 19:42:36 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 19:42:42 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42 19:43:50 * Raystm2 notes that at-xy still doesn't work as expected. 19:43:58 I could be using it incorrectly. 19:44:59 I tried: 12 13 at-xy and assumed that the cursor would go to either the 12th column 13th row or swap that and it just goes to the newline. 19:45:51 home goes to the newline as well. 19:52:11 oh I don't see where you've closed the kernel32.dll vocab. 19:52:21 or is that necessary. 19:52:43 I didn't open the vocabulary in this bit of code 19:52:59 okay just imported with from . 19:53:03 I get that. 19:53:36 * Raystm2 can't change colors either... 19:56:49 odd... 19:56:58 does it give any errors when you load it? 19:57:03 none. 19:57:06 well. 19:57:28 let me stop an output function and try again... 19:57:55 no problem loading the code 19:58:01 loads just fine. 19:58:09 try something like: blue onWhite clear 19:58:53 okay 19:59:58 the color stuff *should* work; it does under wine :( 20:00:41 I created... 20:00:54 : board-colors blue onWhite clear ; 20:00:58 and then called the board 20:01:01 nothing 20:01:12 I wonder if I need toset a console permission. 20:01:53 when I say nothing I mean that the board displays in the normal color scheme that comes with the cmd box 20:01:58 odd... 20:02:01 not changed. 20:02:08 you are calling board-colors? 20:02:23 ya, I call board-colors then .board 20:02:33 at the cmd line 20:02:46 for the test. 20:03:37 odd... 20:03:41 it *should* work 20:03:46 I think so as well. 20:04:16 * crc will check it better tomorrow; I'm off to bed 20:04:22 np :) 20:04:24 good night 20:10:19 : at-xy >r kernel32 stdout r> SetConsoleCursorPosition drop ^ ; 20:10:27 I can put the cursor any where on a line with that 20:10:43 but not on any line 22:01:08 virl: slava is looking for you in #forth. 22:30:09 --- join: Cheery (n=Cheery@a81-197-20-242.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 22:50:03 --- quit: neceve (Remote closed the connection) 23:59:08 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 23:59:46 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #retro 23:59:46 --- mode: irc.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/06.07.23