00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.07.14
00:59:44 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection)
04:34:51 --- join: nighty (n=nighty@66-163-28-100.ip.tor.radiant.net) joined #retro
06:03:57 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #retro
06:08:15 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@199.227.227.26) joined #retro
06:41:20 * Ray_work looking at just exending the b18chess language and graphic board to crc's chess game storage system. BUT i can't seem to load and play the crc chess game.
07:16:54 --- join: Shain (i=steve@c-67-161-56-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #retro
09:00:11 --- join: swsch (n=stefan@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/swsch) joined #retro
09:00:11 --- mode: ChanServ set +o swsch
09:41:55 --- join: crc_work (n=cchilder@h-64-105-207-163.phlapafg.covad.net) joined #retro
09:50:05 --- part: crc_work left #retro
11:24:21 --- join: neceve (n=claudiu@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #retro
12:40:01 --- join: hrmpf (n=obi@gw.mastmoen.no) joined #retro
13:03:52 --- join: Cheery (n=cheery@a81-197-20-242.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro
13:06:43 --- quit: hrmpf ("whatever u do, do it right!")
14:22:56 --- quit: swsch ("Leaving")
14:41:14 --- quit: nighty (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
14:53:36 <crc> Ray_work: I'll take a look
14:58:24 --- quit: neceve ("Leaving")
15:08:13 --- quit: Ray_work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby")
15:18:44 <crc> Raystm2: I will have a working version up soon
15:30:59 <crc> http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=31
16:09:55 --- join: jas2o (n=chatzill@wnpp-p-144-134-163-174.prem.tmns.net.au) joined #retro
16:26:05 --- quit: Cheery (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:30:38 --- quit: jas2o ("Chatzilla 0.9.73 [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
16:37:57 --- join: jas2o (n=jas2o@wnpp-p-144-134-163-174.prem.tmns.net.au) joined #retro
16:39:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o crc
16:45:10 <virl> hi crc
16:45:14 <crc> hi virl
16:51:33 <virl> pfew, the x86 instruction format is a bit difficult to understand, so much groups.
16:51:39 <virl> and optional parts.
16:52:04 <virl> I wonder reallly how they cpu designers manage it to get fast code
16:52:32 <virl> it's an extremly mess, isn't it?
16:54:21 <crc> *cough* octal *cough*
16:54:33 <crc> the core instructions make the most sense in octal, not hex or decimal
16:55:22 <virl> oh? really?
16:55:49 <crc> yes
16:55:50 <crc> http://tom.bespin.org/src/opcodes.html
16:55:57 <crc> http://tom.bespin.org/src/opc386.txt
16:56:02 <crc> (from tcn)
16:57:53 <virl> so, 117 means, incrementing $edi?
16:58:04 <virl> eh, decrementing
16:58:48 <virl> those extensions to x86 opcodes are bloat
16:59:13 <virl> I mean, a mmx instruction takes about 64 bits or something like that.
16:59:30 <virl> (I guess)
16:59:32 <crc> yes
16:59:59 <crc> $117 is dec edi
17:01:12 <crc> again, I don't even use all of the 386 instructions; I have never needed MMX, SIMD, or any other part of that extra silicone
17:01:23 <virl> yes, I know.
17:01:43 <virl> but heh, it really makes a bit more sense in octal.
17:01:53 <crc> yeah
17:01:58 <virl> well, in those old days techs loved octal
17:02:07 <crc> it's a shame this isn't really documented in the intel manuals....
17:02:11 <crc> octal is cool :)
17:02:50 <virl> well, for octal I don't have much purpose(now the only known one is x86 opcodes)
17:03:40 <virl> eh, purpose=usage, sry
17:04:10 <crc> ok
17:04:46 <virl> or for what another thing is octal the right tool?
17:05:22 <crc> unix file permissions
17:05:41 <virl> ok, that's true, I used them also.
17:05:47 <virl> but what else?
17:07:14 <crc> those are the only two I can think of offhand
17:07:24 --- part: jas2o left #retro
17:08:22 <virl> hex is generally good for viewing bytes :-)
17:08:52 <crc> yup
17:56:45 <Raystm2> Greetings Earthlings.
17:56:59 <virl> Raystm2, you are a programmer!
17:57:10 <Raystm2> Am I?
17:57:35 <Raystm2> No, I'm a materials handling and caster salesman.
17:57:55 <Raystm2> At least, that's what I keep telling myself.
17:58:51 <Raystm2> crc: is there anything like xy-at or at-xy to position output on the .... oh wait that's right, this output doesn't have co-ords, does it?
17:59:42 <virl> Raystm2, you want to print something at a specific row at a specific colum, is that right?
17:59:57 <virl> if so then you should look at ans-terminal codes.
18:00:08 <virl> also called escape sequences
18:00:30 * Raystm2 back-reading the log and ....
18:01:11 <Raystm2> crc: thanks for the paste update of your marvelous chess. I wanna play with it some and see if I can use it, extend it.
18:02:27 <Raystm2> AND tcn's pages! wish I knew about those years ago. :)
18:04:04 <Raystm2> virl: excellent advice, thank you very much! :)
18:08:26 <docl> wow, I'm not the only one that loves octal :)
18:12:40 <Raystm2> 8tal is cool.
18:14:16 * Raystm2 is waiting for sexidecimal. That's where you've been so busy lately that your wife starts looking like the 10 you married 25 years ago. :)
18:18:22 * Raystm2 remembers modular math.
18:21:43 <docl> 10 wives?!? ...oh
18:22:41 <Raystm2> hahahaha
18:27:37 <docl> technically, sexidecimal is the same thing as hexidecimal, right?
18:27:50 <docl> either could have... connotations :P
18:29:15 <docl> anyways. octal is way easier to wrap your mind around than hex. or decimal, for that matter :)
18:30:24 <docl> we just use decimal because our culture happened to pick a complicated number as it's base numeral
18:31:00 <docl> certainly better than twenty, though
18:31:59 <Raystm2> Hexidecimal, as we all know is 16. but i
18:32:24 <Raystm2> think analog clocks are hard coded in sexidecimal, which I believe is 60.
18:34:07 <docl> ahh, that makes sense. hex means add 6, sex means multiply thereby
18:34:42 <docl> what are bases 18 and 80 then?
18:35:34 <Raystm2> base 18 is the subset of Chess Algebra, at least that's how I use it.
18:35:43 <docl> :)
18:35:48 <Raystm2> it includes the 8 ranks and 8 file letters
18:35:53 <Raystm2> as numbers
18:36:14 <Raystm2> which makes using forth and playing chess very simple thing to manipulate.
18:36:38 * crc just picked up a new a/c unit
18:36:48 <Raystm2> did the old one die?
18:36:58 <Raystm2> Will there be a wake?
18:36:58 <crc> no, but it is dieing
18:37:06 <Raystm2> oh death watch.
18:37:22 <crc> the new one is a nice 12k btu unit; should cool the apartment better
18:37:49 <Raystm2> Was it spitting water at your computer, which is what I was unvocally worried about when you moved it there.
18:38:00 <docl> Raystm2: wouldn't octal work? 0-77?
18:38:30 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection)
18:38:44 <Raystm2> sure and that's what crc does, but when you make a chess algebra move you do: g1h3.
18:39:09 <Raystm2> you could ofcourse translate to oct.
18:39:45 <Raystm2> but I just leave them as numbers and then translate them to ascii for saving in a readable persistant save-file between moves.
18:40:06 <docl> ah I see, makes a-h accessible easily
18:40:13 <Raystm2> yes.
18:40:35 <docl> leaves leaves 9 and 0 unused
18:40:36 <Raystm2> well, adds g and h to hes
18:41:13 <Raystm2> right and I use the 0 for promote-pawn signal, which is outside of the normal Chess Algebra.
18:41:24 <Raystm2> for instance: 
18:42:41 <Raystm2> e0dQ would be the entry for a white pawn in the e file on the 7th rank ( where all promotes happen from ) and then moves to d8 ( like when taking and promoting at the same time ) to the promote-value of Q
18:43:06 <Raystm2> Regular chess algebra would have been coded as, e7Xd8Q
18:43:18 <Raystm2> and that was just 1 too many chars to me.
18:43:50 <Raystm2> especially when every other move can be saved as either a single digit or a coded move instruction in ascii
18:45:38 <Raystm2> The chess interpreter should take an ascii file, and read in the moves to the board. this way you can use the "saved-game.txt" file and share it any number of ways with an opponant.
18:46:23 <Raystm2> directly, email, real mail scan and OCR. or just typed in from memory....
18:47:04 <docl> you realise, with the right settings you can read up to four characters simultaneously from a PC keyboard?
18:47:10 <Raystm2> but every move made on the command line should be saved out to the file, the file read back in and executed by default.
18:47:42 <Raystm2> Chording?
18:47:52 <docl> they differ as to which keys these are, for some reason
18:47:56 <docl> yeah, chording
18:48:20 <docl> I used to have one that did zxcv simultaneously, but now it's bvcn
18:48:25 <Raystm2> I don't know a lot about chording but i'm inspired to see what it could do for chess :)
18:48:43 <Raystm2> really? /me tries this
18:48:46 <docl> with two chord sets, you have a position in either rank or file
18:51:24 <docl> just try pressing some contiguous sets of four and find one that spits them all out at once
18:51:43 * docl is not *quite* sure how to exploit this properly.
18:53:17 <docl> if you monitor the keyboard at repeated intervals, look for two time slices in a row with the same key-combo followed by no keys being pressed
18:53:41 <Raystm2> oh wait, I know what you mean now. The key interpreter has a 4 char memory and those key controller registers can be moved to the regular registers up to 4 chars.?.?.?
18:54:17 <docl> something like that, I'm not sure how it works
18:54:49 <Raystm2> I've tested for key presses in the past, in colorforth.
18:54:59 <docl> some sets of four can't be read simultaneously, apparently
18:55:55 <Raystm2> hmm, /me wonders if it always returns in the same order.  ( hit 4 keys ) asdf ( same 4 keys ) safd ...
18:56:43 <docl> yep, fdsa here.
18:56:48 * Raystm2 wonders if you can do something like :   well you can't do e2e4 . :(
18:56:58 <Raystm2> afds
18:56:58 <Raystm2> fdas
18:56:59 <Raystm2> fdas
18:56:59 <Raystm2> adfs
18:57:00 <Raystm2> adfs
18:57:00 <Raystm2> afds
18:57:01 <Raystm2> adsf
18:57:02 <Raystm2> asfd
18:57:04 <Raystm2> asdf
18:57:06 <Raystm2> asfd
18:57:08 <docl> no, won't work :(
18:57:08 <Raystm2> asdf
18:57:10 <Raystm2> afds
18:57:12 <Raystm2> afsas
18:57:14 <Raystm2> sorry. test there.
18:57:19 <docl> however...
18:57:20 <docl> a
18:57:21 <docl> s
18:57:23 <docl> sa
18:57:24 <docl> d
18:57:26 <docl> dsa
18:57:32 <docl> da
18:57:36 <docl> ds
18:57:39 <docl> f
18:57:41 <docl> etc.
18:58:02 <Raystm2> ya soon as you put up a pair, the interpreter executes. 
18:58:11 <docl> 16 combos including 0
18:58:16 <Raystm2> source/dest/source/dest/source/dest/source/dest/
18:58:55 <Raystm2> factorial 16! 1- combinations.
19:00:17 <docl> two sets in a row gives 16^2 combos, one byte's worth.
19:00:31 <Raystm2> no i'm wrong there are no numberLetter combinations or numberNumber or letterLetter
19:00:43 <Raystm2> right.
19:00:57 <docl> perhaps use two hands, with each corresponding to the high or low nybble
19:01:16 <docl> fdsajkl; == 11111111
19:01:31 <docl> <space> == 00000000
19:01:48 <docl> the rest of your keyboard is now unnecessary :)
19:02:06 <Raystm2> okay and you do the file and the next byte has the rank.
19:02:17 <Raystm2> same keys only one at a time.
19:02:29 <Raystm2> you mask out the moving bit...
19:03:04 <Raystm2> in each and that translates to the actual move.
19:03:09 <docl> fdsa = 1...8, jkl; = a ... h
19:03:26 <Raystm2> oh sure I see it now, sorry :)
19:03:31 <Raystm2> duh! :)
19:04:04 <docl> actually that's not it... only three letters are needed for chess.
19:04:08 <Raystm2> swap them letter first in the left hand and number in the right.
19:04:20 <docl> dsa kl;
19:04:30 <Raystm2> octal!
19:04:34 <docl> yup :)
19:04:43 <Raystm2> Your doing great! :)
19:05:25 <docl> tri-binary -> octal
19:06:03 * crc finds octal fun to play with
19:06:19 <Raystm2> f=a d=b fd=c s=d fs=e ds=f fds=g   need one more.
19:06:35 <docl> space = h (or a)
19:06:58 <Raystm2> ah and space space is h8
19:07:11 <docl> I h8 that!
19:07:13 <docl> :P
19:07:21 <Raystm2> hehe
19:08:01 <Raystm2> two key # 57's in a row and you move to h8te.
19:08:32 <Raystm2> And then it's on.
19:09:55 <docl> fdsa! jkl;! sounds like I'm swearing. too much h8!
19:14:25 <Raystm2> oo i sorta like a=a s=b d=c f=d as=e sd=f df=g af=h
19:15:21 <Raystm2> or a=a s=b d=c f=d as=e df=f sd=g af=h
19:15:58 <docl> that would feel intuitive
19:16:02 <Raystm2> then you have individual followed by the two left ones the two right ones the middle ones and the outside ones.
19:16:03 <Raystm2> ya.
19:17:14 <docl> 4 singles, 4 doubles, same keys
19:17:23 <Raystm2> yes
19:17:53 <Raystm2> left of center board single right of center double, top singe bottom double numbers
19:19:06 <Raystm2> BUT if every move is a letter followed by a number the you can use all eight key twice and know that the first will code a letter and the second a number... but thats ... I don't know.
19:21:54 <Raystm2> in the chord key case, the swaps are totaly independant: sd ds df fd as sa af fa so you can have either case and you don't need anything than the retro commandline to code it.
19:21:56 <docl> hmm. maybe there's not as many combos as I thought. a s d f sa ds fd fa dsa fds fsa fda fdsa makes 13 for a hand if order isn't being counted
19:22:53 <Raystm2> 0 is missing, you can't hit a zero so it should be 15 combos I think in 4 keys.
19:23:21 <docl> but there isn't, only 13.
19:23:40 <Raystm2> a s d f as sd df af asd sdf asf adf hmmm...
19:24:11 <Raystm2> oh asdf
19:24:22 <Raystm2> ya, what about that??? :)
19:25:38 <docl> hmm. with order counted it would be a lot more.
19:26:13 <Raystm2> ya
19:26:24 <Raystm2> the reverse of everthing other then the singles
19:26:51 <Raystm2> and then swaps in the three and four types as well.
19:27:11 <Raystm2> and a couple rots in the four type
19:27:50 <docl> combos of all four in asdf counting their order should be 16. but of threes, twos, ones, etc. there's other amounts
19:28:13 <docl> a s as sa = 4 out of 2
19:28:37 <Raystm2> I said that but I said it in forth. :)
19:28:43 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@dslb-084-058-136-123.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #retro
19:28:44 <docl> a s as sa d ad sd asd = 8 out of 3
19:30:05 <Raystm2> there is atleast 3 more there I think
19:30:07 <docl> hmm missed a few there. da ds dsa das
19:30:12 <Raystm2> ya
19:30:17 <docl> any others?
19:30:19 <Raystm2> sad
19:30:42 <Raystm2> reverses of anything and swaps and one rot in a three-type.
19:31:06 <Raystm2> wait two rots? and there reverses?
19:31:18 * docl is getting ever more confuzled
19:32:02 <docl> keys could be 123. with space for null, that would make a nybble.
19:32:05 <Raystm2> asd rot sda rot das swap dsa rot sad rot ads 
19:32:36 <Raystm2> I didn't see the mirror rot's at first.
19:32:55 <Raystm2> nybble is cool.
19:35:25 <Raystm2> you could be a Chess Stenographer with the new DOCL Double Octal Chess Layout.
19:35:58 <docl> yeah! :)
19:36:08 <Raystm2> Double the octal, Double the fun!
19:36:10 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
19:36:18 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42
19:37:12 <Raystm2> Now the interpreter takes those key combos, and the enter and you can stay all in the home row.
19:37:44 <Raystm2> space of course. between moves so that you can enter multiple moves.
19:41:28 <Raystm2> there are only three other types of moves that need to be coded to complete the game.
19:41:57 <Raystm2> Castle king. Castle Queen, En Passant.
19:42:37 <Raystm2> the promotes could use the 'g' key as 0 and the 'h' key as 9. 
19:43:26 <Raystm2> well not 9
19:43:55 <Raystm2> but it could convert the first letter to a number and then the pair of numbers could be the castle.
19:44:49 <Raystm2> a mode switch if you will.
19:51:43 * Raystm2 realizes he forgot a s d f as ad af sd sf df asd adf sdf asdf there is 14
19:59:18 <futhin> adfakdj;kladjf;aljfdl;kajfdkl;jacal;jdfa
19:59:31 <futhin> hi!
19:59:33 <Raystm2> hi!
19:59:39 <docl> hi!
19:59:45 <futhin> !ih
20:00:39 <futhin> reading the backlog hurts my head
20:00:44 <futhin> so i'm not gonna bothery
20:00:45 <futhin> yay!
20:01:04 <futhin> y'all are light years ahead of me
20:01:06 <Raystm2> Good life move!
20:01:13 <Raystm2> hehe
20:01:38 <Raystm2> Where ya been?
20:03:28 <futhin> i've been playing continuum/subspace, its a 2d multiplayer fighter ships game
20:03:50 <futhin> i've been playing it on and off for the last 6 years
20:04:00 <futhin> its the only game that i actually play
20:04:12 <futhin> anyways for the last month or so i've been playing that
20:04:18 <futhin> thats the downfall of being in windows heh
20:05:08 <futhin> i really need to fix my linux setup and get back into linux
20:05:17 <futhin> my linux setup is completely borked heh
20:05:20 <futhin> but man
20:05:48 <futhin> i don't like futzing around to get stuff setup and working properly & the way i want it
20:06:03 <futhin> but windows is hardly setup nicely either
20:06:22 <futhin> so my interaction with linux/windows ends up being pretty shallow
20:06:26 <futhin> just the bare minimum
20:06:41 <futhin> in other news, i have a part-time job with fedex
20:06:46 <futhin> mostly data entry
20:06:52 <futhin> and i'm biking to work now
20:07:01 <futhin> so thats like 1.5 hours of biking everyday heh
20:07:02 <Raystm2> you are? cool.
20:07:06 <futhin> good exercise
20:07:10 <Raystm2> yes.
20:07:14 * Raystm2 wants a bike
20:07:18 <futhin> maybe i'll start shedding some of my 250lbs
20:07:23 <futhin> yeah a bike rocks
20:07:29 <futhin> after walking around for 6 months i started getting pissed
20:07:33 <futhin> walking around is stupid
20:07:37 <futhin> why does everyone walk around?
20:07:39 <futhin> bike
20:07:41 <futhin> bike!!!!!
20:07:43 <futhin> bike ftw
20:07:46 <futhin> ftw = for the win
20:07:53 <Raystm2> I walked for a while :( 
20:07:56 <futhin> yeah
20:08:01 <docl> for the linux!
20:08:04 <futhin> actually i'm using an old bike of mine
20:08:06 <Raystm2> It's hot here in the summer
20:08:22 <futhin> got my dad to send me my 10 year old bike via greyhound
20:08:34 <Raystm2> I see lots of people on bikes an motorcycles anymore.
20:08:40 <Raystm2> Cool.
20:08:46 <futhin> had a newer bike several years ago but i wiped out and bent the frame
20:08:54 <futhin> the people at the bike shop thought i got hit by a car 
20:08:59 <Raystm2> yikes.
20:09:00 <futhin> cuz of the frame
20:09:03 <Raystm2> ya.
20:09:20 <Raystm2> light bike then?
20:09:28 <futhin> nah normal bike
20:09:32 <futhin> mountain bike
20:09:44 <futhin> well i crashed into an abutment
20:09:44 <Raystm2> what did you do to it, fall off the mountain? :)
20:09:48 <futhin> abutement?
20:09:50 <Raystm2> ohh! ykes
20:09:54 <futhin> abuttment?
20:09:56 <futhin> heh
20:09:59 <Raystm2> :)
20:10:47 <futhin> in calgary, for non-car traffic, its like 99% of the people are walking and only 1% biking
20:10:50 <futhin> and i think thats pathetic
20:11:04 <futhin> i'm sick of walking heh
20:11:06 <Raystm2> Ya. 
20:11:09 <Raystm2> :)
20:11:20 <Raystm2> Horses.
20:11:22 <futhin> but i had to walk everywhere cuz no car
20:11:27 <futhin> my car is parked
20:11:37 <Raystm2> What kind of car?
20:11:39 <futhin> so its really irritating having to walk 15 minutes to get a little food 
20:11:42 <futhin> mazda 323
20:11:43 <Raystm2> What has it laid up?
20:11:52 <futhin> i don't trust the engine
20:12:00 <futhin> so i parked it and dropped the license
20:12:03 <futhin> i'll probably sell the car soon
20:12:04 <Raystm2> Oh yeah? I have a 323 wagon that is in my garage and doesn't run.
20:12:06 <futhin> for like 300 bucks or something
20:12:16 <futhin> i'm not sure how to sell it because i don't have insurance for it
20:12:20 <futhin> so i can't let people test drive it
20:12:22 <Raystm2> does it run?
20:12:26 <futhin> yeah sorta
20:12:27 <futhin> thats the thing
20:12:34 <futhin> i was worried it would fail on me in the middle of nowhere
20:12:56 <futhin> its the 3rd rebuilt engine, and it uses a lot of oil
20:13:09 <futhin> like a whole bottle every 2 weeks
20:13:14 <futhin> and sometimes it would stall on me
20:13:20 <futhin> etc
20:13:27 <futhin> so i'm not sure how to sell this or what i should be asking for it
20:13:30 <futhin> its a 92
20:13:41 <futhin> the selling prices for a 92 seems to be higher
20:13:46 <futhin> like 1000-3000
20:14:07 <futhin> do you have any advice on selling a car? heh
20:14:20 <Raystm2> Nan says Hi!
20:14:26 <futhin> hi nanny
20:14:48 <Raystm2> Always ask for too  much so that the customer can bargain you down.
20:14:57 <futhin> yeah
20:15:15 <futhin> i wonder if i need to get temp insurance so they can test drive it
20:15:36 <Raystm2> Then let him down by going down but not as much as he wanted too and then say "You got a Deal" and grab his hand and shake it real quick. OVER.
20:15:54 <futhin> lol
20:16:51 <Raystm2> "How much you asking" " 600"  " I'll give you 450" "525 ( take hand) You got a DEAL" OVER
20:17:49 <Raystm2> and make sure to pass the keys to them in the hand shake.
20:18:13 <Raystm2> Once they have the keys, the negociation is o v e r.
20:18:28 <Raystm2> Two hand Clasp.
20:19:00 <futhin> heh
20:19:49 <futhin> i was asking for advice on whether i should get temp insurance so they can test drive & what to price the car at, etc ;P
20:20:12 <futhin> but i'll try out your sales techniques
20:20:44 <Raystm2> @#$* insurance, your not responsible if they wreck during a test drive. Hell, as far as the police know, the test driver stole the car from you. :) 
20:36:06 <Raystm2> Oh most importantly, if the customer asks for something in the range between what you want and what you'll take, don't go straight to "You got a deal" as they will feel like they paid too much. You don't want them comming back.
20:37:05 <Raystm2> When they come back, they are always madder.
20:37:19 <futhin> heh
20:38:35 <Raystm2> If you up them one, then they feel like you are fighting for needed money, and they feel better for giving it. There is a such thing as pricing so low that the percieved value is less.
20:38:50 <futhin> yeah good point
20:40:48 <Raystm2> If they won't go on your up, then offer terms to the tune of, "Okay, you can give me the 450 now and I'll take the other 75 in a month.
20:42:10 <Raystm2> don't lose the sale by staying on your counter-offer. find the terms.
20:43:49 <Raystm2> Most people don't know how to negociate and that should be it. Those that do need to feel like they won.
20:44:08 <futhin> do you have direct experience with doing this stuff or is this stuff that you read?
20:44:45 <futhin> cuz i know you've been reading some money making  books or 
20:44:49 <futhin> -or
20:44:52 <Raystm2> I do it every day when I sell materials handling devices and casters.
20:45:00 <Raystm2> Same process.
20:46:01 <Raystm2> I tend to make the customer feel like they are in the drivers seat ( pun) and I make lots of money looking like i'm bending over backwards and leaving money on the table, just to get the sale and a return customer who thinks they can do it to me again.
20:46:45 <Raystm2> The only advantage I have is knowing the cost and knowing how high above the cost to start the negociation.
20:47:00 <docl> wow
20:49:35 <Raystm2> If you start the price high enough, the percieved cost in the buyers mind is higher and if you only shave a thin margin the percieved cost is even higher, these are professionals, after all.
20:49:51 <Raystm2> They know what things cost.
20:50:32 <Raystm2> Things cost only that much more then the actual cost of the parts, that will keep you from getting in trouble with the boss, should you sell them for less then a certain percentage.
20:51:14 <Raystm2> If a customer goes too low, you always bring in the "Sales Manager" ( just like at used car lots).
20:51:38 <docl> http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=32 <- chorder, uses linux specific ekey code
20:51:45 <Raystm2> " I don't know, I'll ask Carrol. We'll have to take a close look at the costs" ...
20:56:00 <Raystm2> docl: Very cool.
20:59:53 <docl> http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=33 <- a more portable version, but you need to press return to see the output.
21:04:25 <docl> it works with combos of 2 out of asdf, af=0 as=1 sd=2 df=3.
21:05:29 <docl> ad and sf are unused
21:14:38 <Raystm2> when I try to run your code I get a couple errors.
21:15:36 <Raystm2> syscall not found
21:15:36 <Raystm2> :: not found
21:16:14 <docl> the 33 version does that?
21:16:56 <docl> http://retroforth.net/paste/?id=34 <- added a rev feature that makes it more intuitive
21:18:11 <docl> i.e. asdfasdf produces 1313 instead of 3131
21:51:39 <futhin> hmm hmm
21:51:59 <futhin> i'm thinking of coding some evolution software
21:52:12 <futhin> evolutionary computation/genetic algorithm 
21:52:40 <futhin> might as well do it in forth
21:52:58 <futhin> i'm thinking its gonna be a real hassle to code heh
21:53:45 <futhin> well, evolution is simple a) mutate/procreate b) cull the weakest
21:54:50 <futhin> specifying the selection parameters aka "environment to adapt to" is probably the trickest part
21:56:13 <futhin> gotta also have some sort of program or algorithm that i want to evolve..
21:59:31 <futhin> anybody got a simple program they want created? something that i can get the evolution program to make from scratch
21:59:39 <futhin> something useful hopefully ;)
22:20:32 --- quit: Shain (Remote closed the connection)
22:21:13 --- join: Shain (i=steve@c-67-161-56-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #retro
23:06:45 --- join: jas2o (n=jas2o@wnpp-p-144-134-163-174.prem.tmns.net.au) joined #retro
23:14:30 --- quit: jas2o ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/06.07.14