00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.07.03
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03:10:18 <virl> ops, wha.. such errors are horrible.
03:11:19 <virl> thanks crc..
03:12:05 <virl> now I can continue it :-) horray!
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03:19:08 <virl> hi nighty
03:19:11 <virl> today my hero is again crc
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05:49:22 <virl> what's better for you X-keysyms or keycodes?
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08:51:46 <docl> I'm getting a segfault I don't understand
08:51:49 <docl> : <? <if -1 ;then 0 ;
08:51:49 <docl> : simplify 3 for r 1- over + >r r c@ 'a <? [[ r c@ 32 + r c! ]] t rdrop next ;
08:51:49 <docl> : mkmodel wsparse here swap move here 4 allot ;
08:51:49 <docl> mkmodel INTp
08:51:51 <docl> simplify
08:52:31 <docl> does the [[ ]] syntax depend on a clean return stack or something?
08:55:21 <virl> what do you wan todo?
09:02:18 <docl> convert the first three letters of a 4-letter sequence to lowercase and leave the fourth alone
09:04:39 <docl> heh, I changed it to a normal <if and it works fine.
09:04:46 <docl> : simplify 3 for r 1- over + >r r c@ 'a <if r c@ 32 + r c! then rdrop next ;
09:05:27 <docl> better that way anyways because the bracket version creates a new function each time it is executed
09:07:28 <docl> but I'm still not sure why it segfaulted.
09:09:53 <docl> I guess it was the return stack. r> .. >r fixed it.
09:10:31 <docl> : simplify 3 for r 1- over + >r r c@ 'a <? [[ r> r c@ 32 + r c! >r ]] t rdrop next ;
10:15:22 <virl> so.. retro has an imho nice xlib bindings.
10:15:41 <docl> you got them working good now? :)
10:15:59 * docl will have to play with them more
10:16:02 <virl> well, they seem to work ;-)
10:16:28 <docl> we can start putting out genuine graphical apps soon :)
10:16:41 <virl> yes...
10:16:51 <virl> now I can start my presentation system..
10:17:27 <docl> neat, what are you going to call it?
10:17:32 <virl> 0 0 500 500 newwindow produces a window(which you can see..)
10:17:46 <virl> at the moment I don't know
10:19:05 <virl> and then you can select a color and mark it as background or foreground and then you can already do some drawing stuff.
10:19:18 <virl> (I try to hide the complexity of X)
10:19:34 <docl> nice
10:21:06 <virl> the only shit which is difficult to hide is those event stuff of X
10:21:49 <virl> personally I wouldn't like to write x words only to give those X constants a name.
10:22:38 <virl> for example you have an expose event which says that the window needs to get redrawed..
10:23:02 <virl> I don't know how I should solve that in a neat way.
10:26:15 <docl> a short word at the end of each X word that redraws the screen? or maybe a class handler that takes care of redraw?
10:27:09 <virl> redrawing the screen is not good, no not good. better handling the event.
10:28:41 <docl> does the event consist of a flag or something?
10:29:11 <virl> hmm, class handler, well for the xbindins not the right way but for my presentation system it could do something.
10:30:40 <virl> in X you have a structure called X Event which holds information about every possible events and when you get send one XEvent Structure in it you find the information which event it is
10:30:53 <virl> and that is a flag this information.
10:31:47 <docl> so you could make a word that looks up the flag in the structure and returns it more simply
10:32:09 <virl> at the moment you can select the events you get passed by X with the word 'eventmask' which you simply pass a X eventmask.
10:34:13 <virl> docl that's not the problem. the problem is that there are N flags and each flag has a name and I think that's no a clean solution to name all those flags.
10:36:38 <docl> a struct is an array-like variable, isn't it? you can get a given offset by adding a given number of bytes to the pointer...
10:36:50 <virl> yes..
10:37:19 <docl> you don't want to name all the flags?
10:37:31 <virl> yes..
10:38:15 <docl> how many flags are there?
10:39:26 <docl> you could name them in a loc: where they are only used by the handler word
10:39:27 <virl> that are 60 words which need to get defined to get the full X
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10:41:49 <docl> suddenly I see why they use oop stuff for graphics, there's so many categories of things to manage
10:43:15 <docl> so this struct can be an array called x11flags or something, where you refer to them by number
10:43:16 <virl> yes, it is..
10:43:41 <docl> are they grouped by category?
10:44:25 <virl> ehm, I don't if I could call them grouped by category but in some point yes.
10:44:47 <virl> you have flags which are set when a keypress has occured and so on.
10:45:15 <docl> so you could have them in multiple arrays relating to their category
10:46:27 <docl> another thought is to use a voc for the flags
10:46:35 <virl> now you are getting too complex
10:47:02 <docl> x11flag keypress ^
10:47:34 <virl> ok, the voc idea has something.
10:48:08 <docl> voc: is really oop without the dots
10:49:46 <virl> reminds me on smalltalk .. ;-)
10:50:28 <virl> there needs only a way to list all the stuff in a voc
10:51:09 <docl> yeah, that would be nice.
10:51:11 <virl> list x11flags or something like that.
10:51:51 <virl> personally I think that because of the interactivity of forth there needs to be an online help stuff in the forth libs.
10:52:11 <virl> perhaps, I add a USAGE or README word into this lib 
11:14:45 <docl> here's a primitive voc-lister:
11:14:48 <docl> voc: test 
11:14:48 <docl> test : foo ; ^
11:14:48 <docl> : bar ;
11:14:48 <docl> test : baz ; ^
11:14:48 <docl> test ' words alias words ^
11:14:51 <docl> test ' ^ alias ^ ^
11:14:53 <docl> test : ls  ['] test >entry dup @ over 0 swap ! words swap ! ; ^
11:14:56 <docl> test ls ^
11:16:12 <docl> oops, the ^ alias is unnecessary
11:23:26 <docl> here's a better version:
11:23:34 <docl> : entry+ :name dup c@ swap + 1+ ;
11:23:34 <docl> voc: test 
11:23:34 <docl> test : ls  [ here ] >entry entry+ dup @ over 0 swap ['] words -rot ! execute swap ! ; ^
11:23:38 <docl> test : foo ; ^
11:23:40 <docl> : bar ;
11:23:43 <docl> test : baz ; ^
11:23:45 <docl> test ls ^
11:25:11 <virl> ok got em
11:33:02 <virl> http://bitcrash.bi.funpic.de/xbindings_screenshot.png :-)
11:34:04 <virl> hehe.. some day retroforth could have it's own gui toolkit...
11:34:21 <virl> like bigforths minos only smaller and better
11:46:40 <virl> lol, a flying drone running as software a Java application.
11:46:45 <docl> woo, cool!
11:48:20 <virl> now it's simpler to crack those systems
11:48:51 <virl> ok, using a forth would be also not so secure.
11:49:16 <virl> whatever, I'd like to see a robot running forth :-)
11:49:28 <virl> something like AIBO
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13:29:34 <crc_work> 30 more minutes...
13:29:45 <docl> yay :)
13:31:54 <docl> crc_work: the socionics program I wrote wasn't a converter, it was a model generator. but I wrote a converter today: http://rafb.net/paste/results/uFeJWR84.txt
13:32:27 <docl> the basic conversion is to change the last letter if you're an introvert
13:32:58 <crc_work> cool
13:33:08 * crc_work wonders about this definition:
13:33:10 <crc_work> : jpx [ [[ dup 3 + dup c@ 'J over 'j over 'P over 'p =if 6 for drop next 'J 
13:33:10 <crc_work> ;then =if 4 for drop next 'j ;then =if 2drop 'P ;then =if 'p then ]] compile ] 
13:33:10 <crc_work> swap c! ;
13:33:30 <docl> the reasoning behind it's rather convoluted, basically the idea of a primary versus extraverted primary trait
13:33:46 <docl> yeah, that function is a bit strange looking
13:33:56 <crc_work> I was mostly wondering why you have the compiler turned off for most of it
13:34:10 <docl> I just didn't want to split it into multiple functions
13:34:14 <crc_work> create: jpx ............. ] swap c! ;
13:34:24 <docl> ahh, ok :)
13:34:39 <crc_work> create: is like : but doesn't turn on the compiler :)
13:35:13 <docl> that would all have to be on one line?
13:35:27 * crc_work sees that virl is making more headway on x11, which is awesome
13:35:36 <crc_work> no, it can span multiple lines
13:35:43 <docl> oh ok, I see
13:35:48 <crc_work> only parsing must be limited to one line
13:36:03 <crc_work> e.g., " s" and { ... } forms
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14:07:40 <crc> and now home
14:14:00 <Ray_work> ooh that's a fast trip home.
14:14:20 <nighty_> nah
14:14:25 <crc> Ray_work: about 2.5-3 blocks
14:14:30 <Ray_work> hehe
14:14:32 <Ray_work> really?
14:14:33 <crc> a 10-12 minute walk, at a slow pace
14:14:35 <crc> yes
14:14:41 <nighty_> crc: you need to drive faster :)
14:14:42 <Ray_work> pick up the pace then :)
14:14:44 <crc> I walk to/from work almost every day
14:14:53 <crc> nighty_: I don't drive
14:14:54 <nighty_> then run :)
14:15:00 <Ray_work> how is your sweetie doing today?
14:15:03 <nighty_> or buy a skate board :)
14:15:15 <crc> Ray_work: no. I am on my feet a lot at work, I take my time getting home :)
14:15:15 * Ray_work can sell you some casters.
14:15:23 <crc> Ray_work: she is still sick :(
14:15:23 * Ray_work too
14:15:26 <Ray_work> :(
14:15:40 <crc> hmm, casters for carts... we could probably use them :)
14:15:51 <nighty_> :)
14:16:10 * Ray_work is a major importer of all manner of casters and wheels.
14:16:13 <crc> nighty_: no thanks. I do ride a bicycle and a unicycle though, especially for further distances than work
14:16:28 <nighty_> a unicycle uhmmmm
14:16:38 <nighty_> are you a circus freak or something ? :)
14:16:40 <Ray_work> I remember you guys talking about your uni's
14:16:42 <crc> no
14:16:58 <Ray_work> just a plain freak, circus not required
14:17:01 <Ray_work> :)
14:17:05 * Ray_work says in jest.
14:17:07 <nighty_> Yeah :)
14:17:17 <crc> unicycling is a lot of fun, and is a good workout for the whole body if you do any off-roading as I like to do from time to time
14:17:32 * nighty_ is wondering when is the next Ted Nugent Concert :)
14:17:37 <Ray_work> balance is everything,
14:17:55 <crc> balance is trivial :)
14:17:58 <Ray_work> anytime you do something physical that requires balance, you are really working that body
14:18:23 <nighty_> which one ? :)
14:18:30 <crc> knowing where the loose rocks and sticks are is everything
14:18:38 <Ray_work> hahahaha
14:18:41 <crc> if you can't balance well, you just fall off
14:18:56 <crc> hit a loose rock at 15-20mph downhill, and you get very hurt :)
14:19:13 <nighty_> crc: then you hit the pavement with your skull and become a forth programmer
14:19:28 <crc> I never hit the pavement with my skull
14:19:49 <crc> for one thing, I normally wear a helmet, except when I know there will be no traffic on my chosen router
14:19:52 <crc> *route
14:20:01 <crc> e.g., at 2 or 3 in the morning :)
14:20:49 <nighty_> oh well , then this is not how you learn forth ? 
14:22:36 <crc> docl: your new code is up
14:22:43 <crc> nope
14:22:50 * nighty_ closes back his unicycles catalog
14:22:51 <crc> forth can only be learned by doing it
14:26:51 * crc really wants to get an ultimate wheel...
14:27:59 <nighty_> crc: so forth is like sex then :)
14:32:29 <virl> crc, which unicycle do you have? I currently have three ones, my first 20" training unicycle, my 24" Quax normal riding unicycle and then my 20" Trial uniycle for offroading and tricks.
14:35:15 <crc> My good one is missing
14:35:31 <crc> I have a cheap one that needs a lot of work to be rideable again (20")
14:35:39 <crc> My good one was 24"
14:37:18 <nighty_> that's so 70ties
14:38:23 <virl> 70ties?
14:38:30 <nighty_> unicycles
14:38:42 <nighty_> hippies used to ride this stuff
14:38:48 <virl> 70ties unicycles? are you sick?
14:38:53 <nighty_> nope
14:38:55 <nighty_> I am not
14:39:25 <virl> are you also one of those hippies are communists and communism is extremly bad, so lets fight it!
14:39:40 <virl> people?
14:40:20 <nighty_> sorry I could not make sense of first part of your sentence
14:40:38 <virl> are you one of those hippie haters?
14:40:43 <nighty_> no
14:40:57 <virl> do you hate communism?
14:41:10 <nighty_> yes
14:41:32 <nighty_> though hate is not the appropriate word
14:42:37 <virl> harhar, ok, then why? :-)
14:42:43 <nighty_> I just think communism is a bad idea, that's all.
14:43:54 <nighty_> in fact I just think any political dogma or religious dogma are bad ideas
14:44:20 <virl> well, then capitalism is also bad.
14:44:23 <nighty_> it is just a way to control masses IMHO
14:44:28 <nighty_> virl: right :)
14:45:20 <virl> I think communism has a _couple_ and not more interesting ideas.
14:45:38 <nighty_> I always wondered why people felt the necessity to put a name on things they do 
14:45:56 <nighty_> you can commerce , without naming this capitalism
14:46:18 <nighty_> and opposing it to every other human activities
14:46:29 <nighty_> you will still make money 
14:46:39 <virl> perhaps to try to make it portable among people minds, but this doesn't really work.
14:47:37 <nighty_> I believe this is just for political purposes
14:48:04 <nighty_> and what is politics if not the mean for a power hungry few to make themselves rich
14:48:06 <nighty_> and powerful
14:48:23 <virl> well, Chuck Moore made also a language which he called Forth so he named the thing he did...
14:48:41 <nighty_> while leading others to believe they are working for the common good
14:48:50 <virl> and I don't think that had a political background
14:49:04 <nighty_> Forth is not a dogma
14:49:06 <nighty_> is it ? 
14:49:06 <crc> bbiab; I have to run to the store
14:49:27 <crc> nighty_: for some people it is... but you run into that with most languages
14:49:34 <docl> lol
14:49:48 <nighty_> crc: I mean it does lead people's life
14:49:50 <docl> yeah forth is my new political party
14:49:51 <virl> in reality a lot of things can be a dogma.
14:50:04 <nighty_> crc: nor there are any war fought in its name
14:50:12 <docl> forthers unite! vote Forth this coming election year!
14:50:13 <nighty_> crc: (real wars) 
14:50:21 <nighty_> yeah :)
14:50:48 <virl> hehe. a forth party
14:51:07 <nighty_> May the forth be with u :)
14:51:15 <virl> what do you want? we want to simplify the world ...
14:51:31 <virl> The Forth is strong in you...
14:51:35 <docl> use the forth!
14:51:39 <nighty_> :)
14:53:49 <nighty_> cool :)
14:54:03 <nighty_> I got my Acer Core Duo Laptop to run MAC OS X :)
14:54:10 <docl> sweet!
14:54:38 <nighty_> screw apple 
14:54:45 <nighty_> I bought this maybe for much less than a macbookpro
14:54:50 <nighty_> and with more functions
14:54:57 <nighty_> and ram and hd
14:55:28 <nighty_> s/maybe/baby
14:55:30 <nighty_> :)
14:55:31 <nighty_> lol :)
14:56:09 <nighty_> MacBook Pro was 2000 Euros
14:56:18 <nighty_> I got this for 1160 Euros
14:56:38 <docl> nice
14:56:49 <nighty_> If anyone wants the info 
14:57:24 <nighty_> it is an Acer 5672Wmli
14:57:37 <nighty_> even the integrated camera works :)
15:01:31 <virl> oh, wow!
15:02:11 <nighty_> now the wifi does not work yet but it will in a few weeks
15:04:15 <docl> nighty_: do you rule out the possibility that any political or religious dogma could be a good idea? or is it just that the ones you have looked at all seem to have problems?
15:05:22 <nighty_> docl: i think basically all systems are inherently flawed
15:05:35 <nighty_> docl: because of human nature
15:05:42 <nighty_> docl: that is what I think
15:06:03 * Ray_work will be at work till 2100CDT.
15:06:07 <Ray_work> at least
15:06:13 <nighty_> docl: therefore I do understand that some people just thought: "fuck it, let's decide for the masses"
15:06:20 <docl> but some of them work, no?
15:06:30 <nighty_> which one ? 
15:06:42 <docl> the automobile works. it's a system.
15:07:11 <nighty_> lol :)
15:07:31 <nighty_> systems : ie human political systems etc....
15:07:42 <nighty_> docl: smartass :)
15:08:11 <docl> a democratic republic seems to function fairly well, compared to most other forms of government
15:08:27 <nighty_> docl: agreed
15:08:47 <Ray_work> it's all a thinly veiled illusion.
15:08:55 <nighty_> Ray_work: yes
15:09:14 <nighty_> Ray_work: as fairly well , is not "WELL"
15:09:37 <Ray_work> it's a matter of agreement and relitive lowered education and expectation.
15:09:41 <nighty_> Keep them happy :)
15:10:06 <nighty_> and make them believe they decide :)
15:10:06 <Ray_work> right by keeping them upset enough to have something to complain about.
15:10:18 <Ray_work> absolutely. 
15:10:34 <Ray_work> you can win the pop vote in US and still not be prez
15:10:34 <nighty_> All this voting crap 
15:10:38 <nighty_> is a big joke
15:10:41 <docl> ?
15:11:00 <docl> people say that after their candidate loses
15:11:06 <Ray_work> :)
15:11:15 <nighty_> I have no candidate
15:11:27 <nighty_> to me they are all equally corrupted
15:11:37 <Ray_work> when they lose by the same amount of people not allowed to participate, then ya.
15:11:45 <nighty_> no matter which country we are talking about
15:12:07 <Ray_work> I was talking about Turkey.
15:12:17 <Ray_work> What were you talking about?
15:12:29 <nighty_> people enter politics with nice ideas and lost of wishes and soon become corrupted
15:12:33 <nighty_> by the system
15:12:45 <docl> why does the system corrupt people?
15:12:53 <nighty_> docl: power
15:12:56 <nighty_> docl: money
15:12:56 <docl> does it necessarily corrupt everyone who enters?
15:13:05 <docl> do you have money or power?
15:13:06 <nighty_> docl: I believe it does
15:13:08 <nighty_> docl: yes
15:13:15 <docl> does it corrupt you?
15:13:17 <nighty_> docl: because of compromise games
15:13:17 <Ray_work> anybody that doesn't play by the rules, doesn't stay in office very long.
15:13:24 <nighty_> docl: I don't do politics
15:13:29 <virl> those who aren't corrupt could damage the system so the system makes them to small voices.
15:13:42 <nighty_> docl: I am not elected or in a political party
15:13:44 <Ray_work> virl said it.
15:13:46 <docl> define "corrupt"
15:13:54 <nighty_> virl: yes 
15:14:19 <nighty_> docl: accept compromises that are not for the common good
15:14:35 <Ray_work> they don't even bother about common good issues.
15:14:36 <nighty_> docl: or worse , make money illegally
15:14:54 <virl> those compromises again can get to corruption, it's a slow process.
15:15:00 <Ray_work> a bridge to no-where, is uncommon by definition.
15:15:11 <nighty_> docl: usually it goes together
15:15:20 <nighty_> "After me the flood"
15:15:32 <nighty_> type of thinking
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15:16:23 <Ray_work> someday, someone will realize that schools and politics are obsolete by the net.
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15:18:51 <docl> if there is no choice but to make the "corrupt" compromise to stay in the game, couldn't an otherwise uncorrupted person do so, ultimately hoping to serve the common good in the long run?
15:19:26 <docl> for example, a person who buys windows to make money to donate to the free software movement.
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15:20:39 <docl> they have supported the proprietary software movement, but only as a temporary measure while they consolidate power to benefit the cause of free software
15:25:58 <docl> making money illegally is hardly the issue, when there are so many legal, yet corrupt ways to do it.
15:26:37 <docl> would you want to vote for a person who made their money on casinos?
15:29:12 <Ray_work> I suppose corrupt is in the eye of the beholder. In the case of casinos, just smart to work where the money is.
15:29:38 * Ray_work worked in casinos as a boy.
15:30:11 <docl> well, I was referring to the tycoon that owns the place
15:30:19 <Ray_work> :)
15:30:29 <docl> where you work is usually not as big of an ethical issue
15:30:35 <Ray_work> true
15:30:39 * docl worked at a sugar plant
15:30:46 <Ray_work> you WHAT?
15:30:51 <Ray_work> :)
15:31:00 <docl> yup, rottin' kids' teeth and all that
15:31:01 <Ray_work> my teeth vibrate at the thought.
15:31:05 <Ray_work> :)
15:31:35 <Ray_work> how many plants does it take to make a sugar?
15:31:43 <docl> thing is if there's enough money in it, people will go into any line of business.
15:31:57 <Ray_work> abso-tutely
15:31:58 <docl> a few million sugar beets
15:32:01 <Ray_work> cool.
15:32:27 <Ray_work> that's just amazing to me, the number of chickens, beets, rutabagas in the world
15:32:36 <Ray_work> astounding.
15:32:51 <Ray_work> much is wasted.
15:32:56 <Ray_work> less and less everyday.
15:33:39 <virl> or bread
15:33:45 <Ray_work> bread.
15:33:52 <Ray_work> beer, the liquid bread.
15:34:07 <virl> humans like wasting..
15:34:25 <Ray_work> US is 10th in the world of beer drinkers and first in manufactures
15:34:35 <virl> it's interesting that wasting things make us feel better
15:34:49 <docl> making money from corrupt action in your political office is really bad though. maybe even worse than owning a casino
15:35:07 <Ray_work> that means our drinkers drink more. they have too, to get anything out of that panther water they pass off as beer.
15:35:26 <virl> and who is the world first beer drinkers?
15:35:30 * Ray_work = wasteing time right now.
15:35:50 <docl> time, that's hard to not waste
15:36:02 <docl> gotta optimize that
15:36:04 <Ray_work> Austrians?? I think? maybe Hungarians??
15:38:20 <docl> I'm not so sure waste makes us feel better.
15:38:30 <docl> freedom does
15:39:21 <crc> back
15:39:29 <docl> welcome back!
15:39:39 <virl> haha austrians? hmm, I need to lookup.
15:43:29 * Ray_work trying to find where I heard that factoid about beer.
15:43:31 <docl> I guess waste can be defined multiple ways
15:43:45 * crc shakes his head... the chat in #forth is depressing
15:43:54 <Ray_work> one mans waste is another mans hips.
15:43:58 <Ray_work> yikes
15:44:07 <docl> if "wasting time" = reducing stress, might make people feel better
15:48:58 <docl> is there something about forth that inherently resists standardization?
15:49:14 <crc> it's too easy to change any aspect of the language
15:49:39 <docl> yeah
15:50:17 <crc> the key problem with standardization is that it basically freezes the language (and with forth) environment to one point in time
15:51:05 <docl> so ans is stuck in the 80's or so?
15:51:10 <crc> yes
15:52:09 <crc> ans defines a reasonible core, given its objective of adopting the main concepts and words in all varients of forth up to that time
15:52:16 <Ray_work> all standards are snapshots of the progress of a system, and most likely many years out of date even when it is finished.
15:53:53 <docl> hmm. is there some maximally developed point that forth can get to, then standardize?
15:54:02 <crc> in theory, yes
15:54:16 <crc> there have been numerous standards too
15:54:27 <crc> http://quartus.net/dpans/dpansd.htm for brief info about some of them
15:55:47 <crc> docl: I would think that the core language could be pinned down eventually, but issues of *environment* would be very hard to pin down
15:56:33 <virl> conclusion -> making a forth standard for gettin even more minimal so that a lot of more things can be defined.
15:56:55 <Ray_work> Hence, levels of forth.
15:56:57 <docl> so a popularizable language for the retro platform would likely be simply an environment
15:57:10 <virl> or xell..
15:57:18 <crc> yes
15:58:13 <Ray_work> There is a theoretical limit to how minimal a forth can be on a particular architecture, after that....
15:58:36 <Ray_work> after that it's all conjecture, a popularity contest.
15:58:59 <docl> can retro become more minimal?
15:59:12 <Ray_work> P'' is maybe the theoretical limit
15:59:14 <crc> yes
15:59:30 <crc> docl: I can remove some classes, and quite a few words
15:59:51 <crc> 30-40 words is about the smallest I've done in the retro codebase
15:59:59 <Ray_work> you need a way to pan memory, you need a way to store and fetch from the point that the memory is currently panned too...
16:00:05 <docl> I wonder what the cost would be in terms of user-friendliness
16:00:13 <crc> quite a bit
16:00:55 <crc> Retro incorporates the foundational words and features I use in most of my programs
16:01:41 <crc> When my coding habits change, the wordset evolves, unused words disappear, new ones are added
16:02:22 <Ray_work> this is the example of a man who has held the reins for 5 or 6 or 7 years of development.
16:02:46 <Ray_work> a great example of the way a forth proceeds.
16:03:35 <Ray_work> "It's all in the mind" -- George Harrison -- Yellow Submarine.
16:03:42 * crc notes that retro's binary size is similar to that of the 4/5/6 releases, but has almost 3x the functionality built in
16:03:57 <Ray_work> nice!
16:06:04 <crc> apply some basic compression (via upx) and size drops in half
16:06:10 <Ray_work> :)
16:07:10 <Ray_work> Chuck demonstrates some compression in forth, in colorforth using lz77 and cyclic-r-c in his "print" screen word.
16:07:19 <crc> around 8-10k of each binary is raw ascii source
16:07:56 <Ray_work> PRINT makes a PNG image of the screen and stores it somewhere on the disk allowing you to move it to your harddrive for transport.
16:08:25 <crc> interesting
16:10:43 <Ray_work> blocks 38, 40, and 42 of windows colorforth and then 44 has the FILE word that moves blocks to and from the drives.
16:11:12 <crc> is there a netbsd colorforth? ;)
16:11:30 <Ray_work> not that i'm aware of, but the person to ask is Tim Nietz
16:14:35 <crc> does anyone want to stress-test a possible alternate forum for retroforth?
16:14:50 <docl> sure
16:14:55 <crc> http://retroforth.net/discuss/
16:15:07 <Ray_work> You know, crc, I wonder if Mark Slicker's xcolorforth would work on netBSD
16:15:32 <crc> I am hoping it will be more reliable than the existing forum
16:16:05 <Ray_work> the words on the left of screen are a tad hard to read, and i'm not gonna lean in :)
16:16:40 <crc> that's just stylesheet stuff, I am still learning the ropes of these stylesheets
16:17:01 <docl> yeah, looks fine in user mode :P
16:17:02 <Ray_work> :) no way to add comments yet?
16:17:11 <Ray_work> pretty.
16:18:51 <Ray_work> docl: how did you add a comment so fast?
16:19:01 <Ray_work> I can't even find where to join.
16:19:02 <docl> it's still waiting on my end
16:19:06 <Ray_work> :)
16:19:09 <docl> go to sign in
16:20:09 <docl> it has a pretty good look, other than the grey part being hard to read
16:22:41 <docl> you get the same browser-waiting issue Ray_work?
16:23:05 <crc> I don't :(
16:23:26 <crc> docl: what browser?
16:24:28 <docl> opera
16:25:16 <crc> 8.x or 9?
16:25:21 <docl> 8.51
16:25:30 <crc> 9 tends to do a bit better...
16:26:10 <Ray_work> no my browser loaded eveything immediately.
16:26:48 * Ray_work currently using IE6
16:27:09 <Ray_work> that reminds me, I don't have firefox on this machine...
16:30:17 <crc> docl: on your account tab, is there a "Change Role" option?
16:31:56 <docl> I don't see one
16:32:19 <docl> must just be for moderators
16:32:22 * crc must learn his way around...
16:33:14 * crc changed you to a moderator
16:33:27 <docl> cool!
16:33:52 <docl> a settings tab just appeared
16:34:37 * Ray_work personalizes his membership with his favorite forth.
16:35:01 <docl> cool
16:52:58 * crc goes to eat dinner; will be back later this evening
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17:53:18 <crc> back again
17:55:42 <virl> hiho crc
17:58:02 <virl> X sometimes a sick system..
17:58:06 <virl> is
17:58:47 <crc> more difficulties?
17:59:14 <virl> you could call them so 
17:59:54 <virl> at the moment I don't understand why setting the line width doesn't work
18:05:20 <virl> ah ok, well it's silly
18:06:45 <virl> I mean that changing the line width so that you can see a wider line only works with a specific style of the line is uarg!
18:07:36 <crc> weird
18:07:57 <crc> is it possible to draw directly to the window surface as a framebuffer?
18:09:42 <virl> or drawing an arc, also works if you pass the function it in a specific way
18:10:03 <virl> directly to the window surface as a framebuffer? how do you mean that?
18:10:18 <crc> e.g., read and write the window contents directly
18:10:29 <virl> yes, my lib paints directly to the window
18:10:50 <crc> without going through the X drawing functions?
18:11:19 <virl> that's not possible 
18:11:24 <crc> :(
18:11:48 <crc> http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/x-windows/disaster.html
18:11:49 <virl> perhaps one xextension..
18:13:36 <virl> that was the reason why I'd liked to get to the lower levels, so under X, when you understand.
18:24:00 <docl> crc: I have long suspected there was something bloated and wrong about x-windows
18:24:33 <docl> starting with the fact that an X server is a client, and vice versa
18:26:29 <docl> I think there's a special framebuffer alternative that works if you have youre kernel compiled properly
18:30:15 <docl> seems extreme that you have to patch the kernel to get any graphics at all without X.
18:30:41 <virl> yeah, maybe. but on the other hand that solution doesn't have those nice drivers.
18:31:03 <docl> drivers?
18:31:40 <virl> nvidia and co..
18:31:41 <docl> device drivers?
18:31:43 <docl> ahh
18:31:53 <docl> why are those restricted to X?
18:32:27 <virl> because the manifactures are babies and don't release their specs to public.
18:32:38 <virl> and only do that for X
18:32:45 <docl> strange.
18:33:04 <docl> but why can't those drivers be used with another program that emulates the essential parts of X?
18:33:14 <virl> somehow they are embedded as modules in the kernel, but glue code which matters you can't see.
18:33:46 <virl> because no one wrote such a program...
18:33:55 <crc> http://home.comcast.net/~fbui/
18:34:34 <docl> neat
18:35:12 <docl> also http://www.svgalib.org/
18:37:05 * docl wants to try FBUI
18:37:36 <virl> svgalib is deprecated iirc
18:38:04 <crc> and doesn't work well on the *bsd's
18:38:14 <crc> FBUI doesn't work with *bsd either :(
18:38:31 <docl> darn
18:41:08 * crc wants to try to use the enlightenment dr17 libraries sometime
18:42:10 <virl> there two other projects, one is more for embedded stuff the another should get THE solution for graphics in the kernel but was shooted by the kernel developer.
18:42:52 <docl> why does everyone want to put their stuff in the kernel?
18:42:59 <crc> speed
18:43:10 <crc> some parts of the graphics code need kernel-level access
18:43:13 <Ray_work> cool FBUI
18:43:21 <crc> e.g., initializing the graphics card, restoring text mode
18:43:44 <Ray_work> there should be a forth-Fbui alike.
18:43:56 <docl> is X in the kernel?
18:44:01 * crc had thought of using a tweaked version of Maunga to write the kernel-side part of drivers in forth
18:44:30 <virl> docl, through a driver yes.
18:44:44 <virl> Maunga?
18:44:50 <docl> how big is the X driver in the kernel?
18:46:51 <virl> my nvidia driver is ~ 4.3 MB big
18:47:07 <virl> that's shockingly big
18:47:26 <docl> what does it talk to?
18:47:50 <virl> the framebuffer of the graphics card?
18:48:15 <docl> doesn't it talk to X?
18:48:29 <crc> X would talk to it
18:49:12 <docl> couldn't another program mimic X and talk to the nvidia/whatever driver?
18:49:13 <virl> the driver talks to the card and X talks to the driver
18:49:26 <crc> it would hook into parts of the kernel vt code, and handle enabling graphics mode, restoring text mode, preserving video ram, etc
18:50:59 <crc> kernel <- driver <- x <- window manager <- apps
18:51:04 <crc> lots of fun layers
18:51:18 <docl> right. ww just want to substitute for x
18:51:25 <crc> kernel <- driver <- x <- window manager <- widget library <- apps
18:51:29 <crc> forgot one :)
18:52:23 <docl> minimalistic wms exist. widgets and apps too.
18:52:44 <virl> like talking to your nearbour who sits one meter next to you through irc.
18:52:49 <crc> they still have all of the sublayers to talk to though
18:52:56 <docl> drivers, well there's generics that allegedly aren't as fast
18:53:25 <docl> forth is about squishing lots of little thin layers
18:54:13 <crc> actually a lot is just timing the redraws. You can have good performance for most things (3d gaming excluded) with the generic drivers
18:54:34 <virl> when using forth in a C env then you see all the ugly things in the system
18:54:36 <docl> heh, yeah we don't need 3d gaming. not yet.
18:54:50 <virl> what...!?
18:55:12 <docl> games are a WASTE of TIME! :P
18:55:20 <docl> 'sides, there's always muds...
18:55:36 <crc> interactive fiction :)
18:55:38 <virl> hah.. they aren't
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18:56:18 <docl> virl: you ever play commander keen? that's 2d at it's finest :)
18:56:36 <docl> (other than stuff like simcity and civ)
18:57:31 <docl> which DON'T need 3d. really. an ascii version would be fine.
18:58:40 <virl> I know 2d is good and I played a lot of good 2d games, but when my hw can spit out 3d why not using it?
18:59:17 <docl> because it is supporting a bloatware industry which is bad for the environment, etc.
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19:00:20 <docl> anyway, once we get a 2d system and enough users, it'll only be a matter of time until someone gets a good 3d version working
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19:01:06 <crc> docl: perhaps MGR could be a source of inspiration....
19:01:21 <docl> crc: timing the redraws, eh? couldn't you have an adaptive algorithm that auto-optimizes things?
19:01:25 <crc> it is simpler than X11 at the least
19:01:29 <crc> docl: probably
19:01:40 <crc> I have never obsessed over performance though :)
19:01:42 <crc> http://hack.org/mc/mgr/
19:02:45 <docl> heh, cool
19:03:12 <crc> http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=76001&package_id=76642
19:03:16 <crc> a cut down svgalib
19:04:22 <crc> even nano-x could be useful for ideas
19:04:27 <crc> http://www.microwindows.org/
19:06:36 <docl> neat, looks like there's some good starting points
19:09:31 * crc is going to watch a movie with his wife (the kids are finally asleep); I may be back afterwards
19:10:25 <docl> ok
19:10:30 <docl> have a good time
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23:59:59 --- log: ended retro/06.07.03