00:00:00 --- log: started retro/06.07.01 02:26:07 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection) 03:46:37 --- join: yoyofreeman (n=root@219.145.81.147) joined #retro 03:57:04 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-12-134.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #retro 04:40:28 --- quit: yoyofreeman (Remote closed the connection) 07:27:17 mornin' 07:43:57 --- quit: Shain (Remote closed the connection) 08:07:26 * docl ponders a way to make an else statement 08:15:33 --- join: Shain (i=steve@c-67-161-56-76.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #retro 08:15:46 hi Shain 08:25:49 NetBSD is not cooperating with my attempts to load the Gtk1.2 library :( 08:26:48 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #retro 08:26:59 good morning everyone 08:28:05 hiho 08:32:21 hmm, the gtk2 bindings are crashing on "init" 08:32:25 0 0 gtk_init 08:32:33 * crc is quite confused by this 08:34:04 it's also confusing here, that when I call help after loading my x11 code it opens a new window 08:34:20 call help? 08:34:47 the help word 08:35:14 ahh. I don't have that compiled into my copy since I'm going to be redoing it completely soon 08:37:30 I had to change the from lines in the gtk loading programs 08:37:49 adding silly things like .0.600.4 and stuff 08:38:26 I am not getting any errors when loading the functions... 08:39:26 look for the files in your filesystem 08:41:00 it's not giving an error for trying to import an unknown function? 08:42:14 nope 08:42:21 and the paths are correct :( 08:42:28 0 0 gtk_init 08:42:37 Abort trap (core dumped) 08:46:22 darn 08:46:59 again, this could just be quirks on my machine, since I had no idea what I was doing when I set things up 08:47:45 wow, qemu is pretty good. I'm installing freebsd on a disk image. 08:48:46 my qemu doesn't work either 08:48:57 (refuses to initialize SDL) 08:49:55 darn. you have debian sarge? 08:51:48 I recently did a massive uninstall/reinstall of a bunch of packages 08:52:23 the secret is to actually purge them, then you get another chance to set them up right 08:52:36 docl: NetBSD 08:53:08 most of what I have is built from the pkgsrc collection 08:53:37 I'm trying to setup bochs and an older version of vmware at present 09:08:31 bochs is working 09:08:39 yay! 09:08:40 * crc hopes it handles the networking requirments ok 09:18:50 hmm, messes up on the x11 initialization :( 09:18:56 runs retro/native ok though 09:22:25 cool 09:23:33 yeah, I got the iso of retro native working by creating a fake hd image. without it, it goes into a loop waiting for the hard disk to spin up 09:26:32 however, since the hd image didn't have any partition info, load/save was disabled. perhaps I could fix that with the bsd install iso I have. 09:29:14 9.2 won't hang if no hard disk is present; but you will have to manually tell it that you have a hard disk, at least intially 09:32:32 how do I compile 9.2 for native mode? 09:34:37 I'm working on that at present 09:34:59 normally I don't start updating the native code until the hosted versions are working as I want them 09:35:20 ahh, I see 09:35:32 you could try http://retroforth.org/902-beta.iso though 09:37:06 it's showing version info and a string of dashes, but it won't take keypresses 09:40:14 ok, I expected that 09:40:26 * crc has to remove all ::'s from the drivers.... 09:41:16 ok 09:47:47 the iso boots, though it's not flawless yet :) 09:49:35 cool, works 09:51:33 try: 09:51:38 fdisk init ^ 09:52:42 freezes and waits for hard disk to spin up 09:53:45 do you have a hard disk image? 09:54:02 no, I didn't. tried again with one and it didn't freeze 09:54:14 ok, that's the correct behaviour 09:54:44 * crc just put up a new iso with the additional drivers 09:56:18 cool, what can it do? 09:56:35 colors, serial port, cmos support 09:56:52 basically it's now equal to 9.1-native, but with the improved core and wordset from 9.2 09:56:59 nice 09:57:19 I'll set up a repo now 09:58:54 http://retroforth.org/repos/902n 10:08:15 I intend to try to do a partitioning tool and maybe even something that can update an existing hard disk installation 10:08:51 that'll be really cool 10:09:13 I wonder if certain aspects of the linux kernel or libc could be ported to forth 10:10:03 translation could be done 10:10:41 technically, since I added support for interrupts, int $80 could be hooked to provide linux or bsd syscalls 10:11:00 wow, neat 10:36:48 idea for the wiki: a tag that puts tildes after every markup character within the specified area, and subsequently removes itself. 10:37:29 that can't be done within the current wiki parser 10:37:46 # was my workaround for that 10:38:09 I could do a markup that ignores markups other than itself though 10:40:39 hmm. you couldn't temporarily vector the parser to make all the lines be #-like? 10:41:39 the idea is to be able to copy 'n paste stuff from plain text or html sources without going through and manually adding tildes 10:53:02 maybe what I'm thinking of is technically a pre-parser 11:01:00 I added %...% form 11:01:13 anything between the % symbols is ignored 11:02:35 cool 11:03:57 hmm. with no line breaks it might not be too useful 11:04:17 `% .. %` would work ok though 11:05:56 yeah 11:08:02 what I had in mind was to insert tildes that would appear when the edit window was reloaded 11:09:37 that would be very difficult 11:09:41 at least for me 11:10:44 I could do it, but it would increase the chances of security holes, which I don't want 11:11:37 ahh, I see. 11:11:46 I will look into it though 11:12:39 you could do a javascript based substitution script I guess. 11:12:59 I'm not that good with javascript 11:13:20 or maybe let the user do it with a simple retro parsing app 11:14:04 maybe... it may also be time to redo the entire backend from scratch 11:14:07 I probably could, but I hate js due to the fact that it allows certain obnoxious things. 11:14:27 http://retroforth.net/wiki/fhtml 11:14:41 this is the markup->html translation part 11:15:03 * crc should seriously take a look at redoing it to use all the new features in 9.x 11:15:30 yeah 11:16:02 I must head out to run a few errands; I'll be back asap 11:16:05 ok 12:02:19 --- join: nighty (n=nighty@sushi.rural-networks.com) joined #retro 12:02:36 hi nighty 12:02:59 hi :) 12:03:03 france bresil 12:03:05 brasil 12:03:46 cool :) 12:04:12 cool :) 12:04:29 soccer :) 12:04:33 oops, up-arrow in the wrong window 12:04:39 it is the world cup 12:04:51 1/4 final 12:05:00 who's ahead? 12:05:10 just started 12:05:11 now 12:05:21 switch on your TV :) 12:05:42 * docl rarely knows anything about sports 12:05:54 The world best soccer players 12:05:57 are playing 12:06:06 this is something to see 12:06:13 even you do not like soccer 12:06:18 I just googled. top link is the google version with a streaming video 12:06:51 but that's an ad I think. I'll find the real thing though. 12:07:19 TV 12:07:25 you don't have a tv ? 12:07:43 nope 12:07:47 tv=bad 12:18:22 funny, the espn page stating "flash 8 player required" sent me to a place with flash 7. 12:20:03 a) flash 7 should be good enough. b) the link should have been to flash 8. if it wasn't available for my platform, they should have said something. 12:22:59 :) 12:24:27 dumb media giants, must not care much about their linux marketshare 12:24:58 not that I'd buy anything anyway :P 12:26:56 back for a little while; lunch in a few minutes 12:29:15 ok 12:29:36 is there a string-matching function? 12:29:40 no 12:29:57 ok, I'll have to write one 12:30:02 cool :) 12:30:09 got it halfway done already 12:34:17 --- join: swsch (n=stefan@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/swsch) joined #retro 12:34:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o swsch 12:45:39 got it working, but it ain't pretty 12:45:48 post it please 12:45:56 : check <>if rot drop .s r> rdrop 0 >r >r drop 0 -rot .s ;then ; 12:46:02 : match ( a c a c -- a c f ) >r >r swap -1 swap r> r> for 2dup r + 1- c@ swap r + 1- c@ check next rot not if 0 ;then nip -1 ; 12:46:48 test code: 12:46:48 wsparse definition pad swap copy 12:46:48 wsparse def pad 10 + swap copy 12:46:49 match 12:47:57 this checks if a longer phrase starts with a shorter one or not 13:15:48 1 0 13:15:51 France 1 13:15:51 :) 13:15:54 Bresil 0 13:15:54 :) 13:19:41 wow, is it over yet? 13:21:40 those are some awesome moves 8) 13:22:16 not over 13:22:38 but brasilian are pissed off : 13:22:38 now 13:23:00 watching a google video of "nicest moves ever." very impressive. 13:23:08 yes 13:23:20 zidane 13:23:31 ribeiri 13:23:33 nicest moves ever? 13:23:37 henri 13:23:43 of what? 13:23:49 french team 13:23:49 :) 13:25:05 the world cup soccer game 13:25:23 http://www.joga.com/VideoView.aspx?videoId=-4514218397303997472 13:25:44 those brazillians can *dance* 13:25:49 yes 13:26:04 they are very good soccer players 13:26:15 ronaldino 13:26:30 is playing with zidane in the same soccer team 13:26:33 in spain 13:26:47 the world 2 best players 13:27:35 that's some incredible application of physics :) 13:28:12 yes 13:28:14 amazing what the human body can be trained to do 13:28:26 they've got glue on their feet : 13:28:30 they've got glue on their feet :) 13:28:56 try to do this yourself with a ball 13:29:01 a football 13:29:20 you'll realize how hard it is 13:29:50 they have total control of the ball 13:30:18 umm yeah, I don't need to try to know that. that kind of control requires millisecond precision. 13:31:29 with the feet, no less. that's awesome. 13:32:31 feet head chest 13:32:34 no hands 13:34:05 yellow card 13:34:09 amazing stuff. 13:34:14 for Lucio 13:34:57 cafu change with cicinho 13:35:34 rebery change with govou 13:37:38 Windows Media Player Download 13:37:39 Your operating system is not currently supported by Windows Media Player. 13:37:58 evil media people 13:38:29 * Raystm2 recalls fondly: old soccor nick was "The Ballarina". 13:38:44 awesome 13:39:01 * Raystm2 was right-footed Left-halfback. 13:40:12 my best friend was Right-wing, many goals started Left-half to right-wing. 13:44:21 --- quit: swsch ("Leaving") 13:44:21 * docl would like to be as good of a programmer as those guys are soccer players 13:45:15 corner 13:47:07 penalty 13:47:11 shit 13:47:15 fucking brasilians 13:47:15 :) 13:47:29 they stole a penalty 13:47:49 darn. I take it you're on the french side? 13:48:11 I am french 13:48:18 makes sense then :) 13:48:49 if you were in france at the moment 13:48:51 you'd know 13:49:03 everybody is watching the game 13:49:10 shit 13:49:12 missed 13:49:31 3 minutes to go 13:49:53 3 minutes of max pressure 13:49:58 from the brasilians 13:50:05 this is the hardest 13:50:54 * Raystm2 now watching France--Brazil 13:51:00 1 minutes 20 secs 13:51:03 to go 13:51:26 --- quit: Cheery ("Leaving") 13:51:37 what is this overtime? 13:51:47 we are in over time 13:51:53 30 sec to go 13:52:07 we won :) 13:52:08 1-0 requires ot? 13:52:12 Horray 13:52:20 now it is craze 13:52:21 in france 13:52:24 :) 13:52:26 * docl claps wildly! 13:52:28 every body in the street 13:52:28 :) 13:52:34 congrats! 13:52:38 Congrats France!! 13:52:38 I can't open the windows 13:52:43 :) 13:52:44 too much noise 13:52:46 :) 13:53:03 Brazilians crying. :( 13:53:11 Yes 13:53:17 but everywhere in france 13:53:25 its crazy 13:53:39 France moves up to play...? 13:53:53 well that's the trouble with sports, someone loses. I bet they try even harder next year. 13:54:12 was that the final game? 13:54:19 1 0 13:54:25 yes it is finished 13:54:38 portugal 13:54:47 oh yes 13:54:48 on wednesday 13:54:51 1/2 final 13:54:55 ya 13:54:55 next 13:55:00 then final 13:55:21 they go on to take on the winner of Germany-Vs. ??? 13:55:37 yes 13:56:04 funny people get more worked up about sports than war. at least nobody dies in sports :) 13:56:24 I don't like sports 13:56:28 but this is soccer 13:56:34 this is different 13:56:53 it is a cultural thing 13:56:56 can't explain 13:57:40 I guess England lost to Portugal? 13:58:45 * Raystm2 was an athlete all of life but bored with sports on tv. 13:58:54 Yes 13:59:01 this is france - portugal 13:59:31 next 13:59:32 I saw the Englang/Germany tie. It was a great game. 13:59:42 Germany won 13:59:42 wow. soccer is so big in south america, I'm surprised brazil lost. france must be pretty darned good. 14:00:03 docl: well Brasil is very team 14:00:21 docl: but france was world champion a few years ago 14:00:26 docl: then it is was brasil 14:00:31 Brazil is a world Champ, if memory serves. 14:00:50 so you won it back this year, I see 14:00:52 98? 14:00:57 docl: not yet :) 14:01:00 now you gotta keep it against portugal 14:01:04 Raystm2: 98 was France 14:01:09 wasn't France champ in 98 yeah 14:01:24 has portugal won it recently? 14:01:31 Raystm2: yes , Zinedine Zidane 14:01:34 docl: no 14:01:47 Raystm2: was playing that year too 14:02:01 Raystm2: Zidane is called "il maestro" 14:02:08 Raystm2: in the soccer world 14:02:25 Raystm2: he is considered the best player ever 14:03:01 okay Germany gets Italy 14:03:11 Raystm2: next is a brasilian called ronaldo 14:03:12 thanks nighty, I didn't know that. 14:03:43 Raystm2: oh sorry , I though you might not know 14:03:57 Raystm2: in USA I think soccer is not so big 14:04:06 it is for kids. 14:04:26 more kids play soccor now, then baseball and football combined. 14:04:41 Basically, it's safer. 14:04:52 well you know that football is in fact soccer :) 14:05:03 the correct name for soccer is "football" 14:05:10 of course :) 14:05:11 football is "american football" 14:05:20 yes. :) 14:05:44 who had the dumb idea to mix up those names, anyway? 14:06:22 "I know, we'll make our own rughby-like game and call it football, just to mess with people's heads" 14:06:52 lol :) 14:06:54 (at least I think it's supposedly similar to rughby, don't quote me) 14:07:48 or was it the reverse? someone said "hey we'll show those stupid yanks and start calling soccer by the same name as that stupid sport nobody over here plays anyways. that'll show 'em" 14:07:50 well rugby is football kind of without the pussy like protections :) 14:07:55 rugby is football for men :) 14:08:26 and for gentlemen 14:08:28 there are very strict rules 14:08:43 american football has more loose rules 14:08:45 it's basically "run with the ball" right? 14:08:52 docl: nope 14:08:56 docl: well yes 14:09:08 docl: but you can't run and pass just as you would like 14:10:24 I never saw the charm of american football. it's a contact sport? why not just wrestle? who needs a ball for that? 14:11:13 lol :) 14:11:55 also it makes no sense that there are football scholarships if it's rules are intentionally simpler than rughby. isn't college about promoting brightness and scholastic achievement? 14:12:46 maybe it's really supposed to be a way to get the stupidest jocks to attend college and get a semblance of an education instead of sticking around their old town and causing trouble 14:14:07 There is much trueth to that 14:14:23 in that case, there needs to be special football universities where sterilization treatments are heavily promoted. then we can eugenically cull the bullies out of the system 14:14:31 It's becoming widely known that american education is designed to make workers. 14:15:07 that's pretty extremististic 14:15:14 You can tell a worker. They like football. 14:15:28 They like Nascar 14:16:33 and WWE or whatever it's called. 14:16:39 TV wrestling 14:16:48 agreed. 14:17:24 but soccer? that's kind of cool. lots of physics in action. 14:17:27 well mass control is not anything new 14:17:31 it just got tighther after world war II 14:17:43 and will get even tighter now on 14:18:13 most people don't notice it 14:18:34 because they are mostly brain washed and kept artificially busy 14:18:49 It looks like normal daily business, to most people. 14:18:55 yeah 14:19:02 the economy is largely illusionary 14:19:19 have you read about oil peak ? 14:19:25 no 14:19:34 even it is maybe exagerated maybe 14:19:38 My boss has to worry that he doesn't pay me enough to someday compete with him. 14:19:40 this is intructive 14:21:01 http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ 14:22:45 Nuclear energy requires uranium, which is also discovered, extracted, and transported using oil-powered machinery. 14:22:48 Most of the feedstock (soybeans, corn) for biofuels such as biodiesel and ethanol are grown using the high-tech, oil-powered industrial methods of agriculture described above. 14:22:51 In short, the so called "alternatives" to oil are actually "derivatives" of oil. Without an abundant and reliable supply of oil, we have no way of scaling these alternatives to the degree necessary to power the modern world. 14:23:29 hmm. couldn't you power the devices on bio-diesel? 14:23:31 yes this is freaky 14:23:46 docl: bio diesel is Oil with BIO additives :) 14:24:19 docl: only the percentage of Oil changes 14:24:20 nah, straight vegetable oil works in most diesel engines with a little heater to keep it flowing right. 14:24:43 uhmmm 14:24:50 the reason for this stupid imaginary crisis is because we are using stupid technology. 14:24:51 docl: the world production of this 14:24:56 docl: requires Oil 14:25:04 no it doesn't 14:25:05 docl: tractors etc.... 14:25:22 docl: yes technology is there 14:25:37 docl: but there is no political will to drive it 14:25:38 tractors powered by bio-deisel. 14:25:55 which is the same as an existing tractor with a heater. 14:26:33 when oil prices climb above their ridiculously low current rate, it'll become more common to use alternatives. 14:26:48 the reason we go with oil is it's so darned cheap right now. 14:27:04 cheap ? 14:27:15 I don't think it is cheap 14:27:17 it only seems spendy compared to coal, which is SUPER cheap. 14:27:23 where do you live ? 14:27:27 idaho 14:27:34 in Europe 14:27:49 oil is VERY expensive 14:28:13 gas prices don't necessarily reflect oil prices 14:30:37 like from 70 cents a barrel to 70 dollars a barrel in my lifetime. 14:30:40 europe is a super-tiny portion of the world's landmass with a huge number of machines to power. when the population is that densely concentrated, prices soar 14:31:07 Raystm2: 70 dollars is in fact cheap, for the amount of energy contained. 14:31:16 Europe is also a more efficient user, simply because of the concentration of people. 14:31:49 the 70 cents was horribly, tragically low. because the stuff was so easy to get and the market was 100x smaller. 14:31:58 yeah 14:32:04 tragically in environmental terms, anyway. 14:32:42 it'd be a great blessing if oil really got scarce because we'd finally upgrade our tech 14:33:09 agreed. 14:33:24 Germany didn't need oil to kick ass in WWII 14:33:41 A very inventive people, at that time. 14:34:02 Raystm2: yes they did 14:34:05 the amount of solar heat wasted daily makes oil look puny. with solar collecting satellites, the potential would expand by a billion times. 14:34:13 Raystm2: they consummed large amount of it 14:34:37 Raystm2: that is why they tried to control SUEZ canal 14:34:40 Raystm2: and egypt 14:34:45 I'm certain you are correct. 14:35:02 Raystm2: tanks and Uboat and KriegsMarine 14:35:12 eat tons of it 14:35:28 Luftwaffe as well 14:35:50 tanks were Panzer Divizion 14:36:10 yeah I'm sure the amount of oil used by the military is huge 14:36:10 One Panzer eat itself A LOT OF DIESEL 14:36:31 UBoats (submarines) were diesel powered as well 14:37:28 we use oil because a) it's such an efficient way to pack energy, and 2) at $70/barrel, it's still extremely cheap. 14:37:42 at $700/barrel it would still probably be cost-effective 14:37:56 I don't think so 14:38:30 you computer would then cost you 10000 a piece 14:38:34 it's not only efficient in terms of volume, but it can be pumped around, which is much easier than augering coal. 14:38:36 dollars 14:38:39 or more 14:39:02 computers at $10000 apiece would also be worth it, believe it or not. 14:39:25 I don't believe it 14:40:36 you wouldn't upgrade as often, but so? we'd have better optimized code 14:40:51 ;) 14:41:05 people would *gasp* buy used computers at yard sales instead of dumping them into landfills 14:42:06 a 386 would have been more than worth $10,000 back when the C64 was the best you could get. 14:42:43 ...if you had the money. there's always that caveat 14:43:09 but your workplace would probably be able to make it pay for itself. a computer is extremely handy in business. 14:43:57 For the first time in human history, we are able to communicate at every societal level. Solutions to problems we don't even know about now, will find themselves. 14:44:28