00:00:00 --- log: started forth/21.07.01
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01:18:42 <j0anna> hi proteusguy how are you
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05:51:14 <iv4nshm4k0v> a'34
05:51:42 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> yea i agree
05:52:15 <iv4nshm4k0v> (Well, it happens.)
07:27:28 <cbridge_> <veltas> I am reflecting on how much stuff manages to get broken by politics in tech. And if you don't like the changes then you're a bad person for not appreciating their *intentions* enough to overlook the impact.
07:28:40 <cbridge_> <veltas> Like I can't complain about GDPR or people say I don't care about data rights or something, but the only difference I see is that websites now steal all your data *and* blast you with annoying popups to ask if that's okay
07:29:40 <cbridge_> <veltas> I managed to resist muscle memory for clicking "yes" on every dialog up until that change, now I actually find myself just clicking away important dialogs like I used to see tech-illiterates do
07:31:08 <iv4nshm4k0v> veltas: +1.
07:33:54 <iv4nshm4k0v> Though my impression is that a. "people say" mostly applies to the newer social networking contexts; avoiding those (in favor of, say, Usenet, BBSes and IRC) tends to avoid that as well.  And b., the "are you OK we steal your data?" dialogs mostly just don't work with my preferred browser, Lynx.
07:37:12 <cbridge_> <veltas> Lately random videos I want to watch, like one recently about cryptocurrency, is locked on YouTube and I can't watch it without signing in and providing ID info to prove my age
07:37:21 <cbridge_> <veltas> Apparently this is some kind of EU rule
07:38:02 <cbridge_> <veltas> I have a workaround for now that "yewtu.be" lets me see those videos, I don't know how long that will last
07:40:54 <iv4nshm4k0v> veltas: http://invidio.us/ lists a plenty instances; I won't be concerned with any specific one going down.  Youtube revamping its "scrambler", or MPAA going all "it's DRM circumvention device", however, would probably be worse.
07:41:38 <veltas> iv4nshm4k0v: I get shouted down on hackernews for this sort of stuff, I don't know how 'new' that is but it's mostly filled with older people
07:42:46 <veltas> Like Cliff Stoll was posting on there yesterday
07:46:13 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> rss + mpv is always there for you
07:48:32 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> (youtube channels each have an rss feed, and mpv integrates with yt-dl)
07:49:54 <cbridge_> <veltas> eris[m]12: I use youtube-dl all the time, it's great. Unfortunately, the changes have broken youtube-dl (unless you sign in, and do the ID stuff I mentioned before, which youtube-dl allows)
07:50:15 <cbridge_> <veltas> So youtube-dl is not a workaround
07:50:38 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> hmm, sad
07:50:45 <cbridge_> <veltas> And that's why I'm concerned that invidious will stop being able to use these videos, although I think depending on where their servers are it won't matter
07:50:55 <cbridge_> <veltas> I think it only affects European IPs currently
07:51:16 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> i cant imagine a vps outside europe is that expensive
07:51:49 <cbridge_> <veltas> I could do it for free probably, using TOR
07:53:16 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> mm, very slow though
07:55:17 <cbridge_> <veltas> mpv is also fantastic software
07:55:26 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> truly
07:56:30 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> im not in europe so no eu restrictions for me :^)
07:56:49 <cbridge_> <veltas> I don't think there's anything I use regularly I'd class as 'fantastic software' that's on the web
07:56:56 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> not too happy about the eu situatiom here
07:57:15 <cbridge_> <veltas> I don't know if the UK agreed to this or if Google is just vindictive towards the UK but I'm not in the EU
07:57:20 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> ah
07:57:22 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> ok
07:57:27 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> we're in the same boat
07:57:27 <cbridge_> <veltas> Nevertheless I get hit by 'europe' rules
07:58:03 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> <veltas "I don't think there's anything I"> i think the web constitutes the opposite
07:58:46 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> truly horrible
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08:00:09 <crab1> hihhi
08:00:35 <cbridge_> <veltas> I am getting fed up of the conflation between the EU and Europe. I am in Europe, I am not in the EU. If the EU does/says something it's not "Europe" doing it. I am a European citizen, but not an EU citizen, but according to the paper this morning I'm not a european citizen
08:00:40 <cbridge_> <veltas> Apparently the UK sank into the ocean
08:00:47 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> pog!
08:01:19 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> taken long enough
08:02:54 <cbridge_> <veltas> It annoys me because this careful choice of words is not unintentional, it's political. But I am just about done hearing complaints about Brexit. I have to suffer the actual real consequneces of Brexit, and then also I have to suffer this stupid positioning and language engineering
08:18:29 <cmtptr> what does it mean to be a citizen of europe?
08:19:21 <veltas> A european citizen is surely a citizen of a european country
08:21:20 <cmtptr> ah, reading it again now and i see you said "european citizen", as in "a citizen who is european," and not as i had interpreted it as "a citizen of europe".  nevermind me, i am being dumb
08:21:55 <veltas> Reminds me of how 'american citizens' are supposedly the US citizens
08:22:45 <veltas> Except that one is not as intentional
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08:27:17 <crab1> it is already commonplace to refer to the USA as 'America' so I think that has become the normal use of the word american
08:27:30 <crab1> unless you are saying things like "american indian"
08:28:17 <veltas> It's commonplace in English certainly
08:33:19 <cmtptr> i've been thinking a lot lately about airplanes
08:33:30 <cmtptr> they sure are pretty neat
08:34:39 <veltas> Airplanes are another bit of tech ruined by politics
08:34:56 <cmtptr> there is nothing that isn't ruined by politics
08:37:29 <veltas> Bend over, sir
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08:40:05 <crab1> The Wind Rises, it's called
08:40:22 <veltas> Ah I liked that movie
08:40:46 <veltas> Meloncholy though
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10:54:07 <cmtptr> veltas, sorry i can't reply because i'm not registered.  but cool!
11:53:22 <cbridge_> <dave0> maw
12:26:38 <crab1> maw
12:36:55 <cbridge_> <dave0> maw crab1
12:43:23 <crab1> what up
12:47:45 <cbridge_> <dave0> nuffing, just wasting time redaing hacker news... you?
12:47:51 <cbridge_> <dave0> reading*
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13:13:56 <crab1> Trying to figure out what I should be reading
13:15:30 <crab1> I am thinking I should read more about how processor design works
13:16:07 <crab1> That seems like it would be the next logical step after forth if I want to learn how things could/should be simpler
13:16:20 <crab1> in the computing world
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13:19:54 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> how do FORTH programmers handle structures of data, like when you have three or more pieces of data that needs to be attached to a variable, but you don't necessarily need to drop them all on the stack everytime? Do you just write some settings and getters, or...?
13:22:34 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> setters and getters, I mean
13:22:59 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> 
ACTION  < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/95e49ff37b3f89df27f089ac49b8099a82b10c38/message.txt >

13:23:11 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> various forths also have provisions for 'actual arrays' 
13:24:48 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> eris[m]12: so basically, just tie some setters and getters words to the memory offsets?
13:24:55 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> ? 
13:25:13 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> you could sure 
13:25:25 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> but you could also just index into them 
13:25:29 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> like 
13:26:46 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> : (index) cells + ;
13:26:48 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> : read (index) @ ;
13:26:48 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> : write (index) ! ;
13:27:09 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> of course
13:27:17 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> you can do any number of data structures 
13:27:27 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> some forths have literal structs! 
13:27:39 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> syntax is like  uhh 
13:27:57 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> 
ACTION  < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/ed7e31777ac193a6760ce6239a4d1996eacbdc1c/message.txt >

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14:54:03 <crab1> I don't know how much any of you are fans of scheme/lisp, but I keep forgetting and rediscovering how nice DrRacket is
15:00:58 <cbridge_> <crc> lispmacs[work]: my forth has several data structures (including lifo buffers, strings, and arrays) built in, and others (such as structures w/getters & setters, key/value stores, linked lists) in the examples.
15:05:35 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> read a blog post recently and was wondering 
15:05:58 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> how would yall solve the problem of needing to add two vectors of 3 length together into a third vector? 
15:06:02 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> crc: which forth was that again?
15:06:08 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> retroforth! 
15:06:27 <cbridge_> <crc> eris[m]12 is correct
15:06:40 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> the result the author came up with was
15:06:44 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> not the best
15:06:44 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> https://prog21.dadgum.com/33.html
15:06:46 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> here's the article 
15:07:12 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> 
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15:07:16 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> and their solution
15:07:18 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> i am running flashforth on an AVR chip. I just went ahead and wrote getters that pull from the appropriate array idx
15:08:13 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> i don't know if retroforth structures could be ported over to flashforth
15:08:54 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> retroforth does not follow standard forth, yes?
15:09:28 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> but anyway, thank you, that does answer my original question of what FORTH programmers do
15:09:32 <cbridge_> <crc> yes, it's non-standard
15:10:44 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> does retroforth have a gemini page?
15:11:07 <cbridge_> <crc> gemini://retroforth.org
15:12:16 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> does NGA run on any interesting platforms, like embedded?
15:12:55 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> or microcontrollers?
15:13:51 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> well, it runs on linux, people embed that :p
15:16:05 <cbridge_> <crc> it's been run on a teensy 4.1, and a pic32 board. I'm currently working on gathering some smaller systems to work on adding in official support
15:18:57 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> now that I've found the gemini wikipedia portal, I can do about 70% of my browsing in Lagrange
15:19:54 <cbridge_> <crc> I use gopher, then gemini, then web if necessary
15:45:49 <mark4__> wait.. gopher is still a thing?
15:47:37 <cbridge_> <eris[m]12> yes
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17:51:51 <cbridge_> <crc> gopher is alive. not exactly thriving, but still far from dead.
19:10:12 <cbridge_> <dave0> nothing ever dies on the internet... someone put multics on the internet :-)   https://ban.ai/multics/
19:37:05 <cbridge_> <ttmrichter> dave0: And even older: https://livingcomputers.org/Computer-Collection/Vintage-Computers.aspx
19:37:56 <cbridge_> <ttmrichter> This is the oldest one I know of that's publicly accessible: https://livingcomputers.org/Computer-Collection/Vintage-Computers/Mainframes/CDC-6500.aspx
19:38:14 <cbridge_> <ttmrichter> There's people I know who've put even older systems online in emulation, but they didn't make it publicly accessible.
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