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03:52:47 <cbridge_> <crc> good morning
03:53:37 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> morning
03:54:35 <cbridge_> <hosewiejacke> moin
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04:39:01 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Morning folks.
04:39:54 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> I agree with crc on the builder point.  Make it your own.  That's part of the joy of Forth.
04:40:22 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> I feel like building a forth for the psion 5mx that can be programmed on-device. Just because
04:40:25 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> even though my 5mx is broken
04:40:38 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> would be nicer than OPL as an on-device programming option
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04:44:41 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Yeah, I've got a little "Itsy Bitsy" Cortex M4 gadget that I want to port to at some point.
04:44:54 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Mine was broken too, but I bought another.  They're just $15.
04:45:22 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> It'll be my first forray into ARM programming.
04:46:34 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> nice
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05:27:34 <cmtptr> crc> not sure why, but it's not working with cbridge   must mean there's already a cbridge on the network
05:33:13 <crc> cmtptr: I think it's having issues logging into nickserv; I'll look into this further, hopefully later today
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05:51:59 <cmtptr> oh, didn't realize you had registered it
05:53:08 <cbridge_> <crc> cmtptr: yes. I may drop the registration though if I can't get the nickserv login working.
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07:21:48 <mark4> what nicserv login? here or liberia?
07:22:07 <mark4> oh the bot cant log in :)
07:22:19 <mark4> nick conflict
07:22:32 <mark4> i figurded it out :)
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11:05:18 <cbridge_> <crc> quiet today
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11:17:23 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> BANG!
11:19:17 <cbridge_> <crc> that's better :)
11:19:26 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> EMACS IS BETTER THAN VIM!
11:19:29 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> 
ACTION ducks

11:19:53 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> that should keep 'em busy for a while
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11:23:06 <cbridge_> <crc> ed(1) > (emacs || vim)
11:25:43 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> acme > (emacs || vim || ed(1))
11:27:33 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> hexedit?
11:28:34 <cbridge_> <cd> 
ACTION grabs their spool of wire and magnetic cores

11:28:50 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> on my PC, I've just got a little switch I toggle up and down to feed instructions into the CPU
11:29:34 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> which I read off my punch card set
11:30:07 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> reading punchcards manually?
11:30:13 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> why would you?
11:30:34 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> everybody knows that a better human-readable format is C code, which you compile mentally
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11:33:04 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> I knew a guy who worked at a power plant that had magnetic core memory. He said it broke a lot
11:33:29 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> the control system computer
11:34:14 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> had a lot of trouble with pieces of memory going bad, or something
11:35:32 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> I think zile-on-guile is a cool idea: https://github.com/spk121/zile
11:36:22 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> However, I haven't lately had to work on any systems small enough not to run Emacs, but large enough to run zile-on-guile
11:36:55 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> I would run it on my librecmc router but I haven't had to play with my librecmc router for like a year
11:37:51 <cbridge_> <lispmacs[work]> There is a guix package for zile-on-guile, anyway, which I have tried out
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11:58:58 <crab> Afternoon forth folks
11:59:36 <cbridge_> <crc> hi crab
12:00:12 <crab> What's happenin
12:03:34 <cbridge_> <crc> I've been finishing up some additional small images for testing implementations of my VM
12:04:00 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> nice
12:04:08 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> is that the retroforth vm
12:04:16 <cbridge_> <crc> yes
12:04:21 <crab> nga
12:04:26 <crab> how to pronounce nga
12:05:29 <cbridge_> <crc> ngā : https://maoridictionary.co.nz/search?idiom=&phrase=&proverb=&loan=&histLoanWords=&keywords=nga has an audio sample
12:05:58 <crab> oo thx
12:06:42 <crab> are you a New Zealander?
12:06:45 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> that's a bit weird to pronounce for me
12:07:16 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> maybe because english doesn't ever have ŋ as the first consonant in a word
12:07:58 <cbridge_> <crc> I use maori words for many of my project names
12:08:03 <cbridge_> <crc> I don't often speak them
12:08:38 <crab> yeah it feels a bit odd to make that sound
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12:09:28 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> I use toki pona words for my project names, although I'm inconsistent with it
12:09:30 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> generally my favorite project names are the toki pona ones
12:09:45 <cbridge_> <sennomo> doggie bona
12:10:05 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> toki pona li pona mute a
12:10:20 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> currently my main project is kalama, a music tracker (kalama is the toki pona word for sound)
12:10:20 <crab> aand my projects never get far enough to earn names ha
12:10:35 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> I just name them when they're just a README
12:10:41 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> and sometimes never get further than that
12:10:58 <cbridge_> <sennomo> Best documented vaporware anywhere.
12:11:02 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> sometimes I write a README for a project before I start it, as a kind of very informal spec for the thing
12:13:24 <cbridge_> <crc> toki pona only has ~120 words though, and I prefer to keep each thing to a single word name
12:13:57 <cbridge_> <sennomo> Yeah, I wouldn't use toki pona or lojban if I wanted to keep names short.
12:14:00 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> that's fair, I will have to go into multiword names at some point
12:14:13 <cbridge_> <nihilazo> but I don't really care if a project has a 2-word name, because toki pona words are so short
12:20:50 <crab> README always rubbed me wrong
12:20:58 <crab> sounds like a little kid begging for attention
12:21:19 <crab> I wish it were called something else
12:21:26 <cbridge_> <sennomo> But that kind of makes sense. It's supposed to grab your attention.
12:22:12 <crab> it's not really a descriptive name though
12:22:23 <crab> ABOUT or something would probably be better
12:22:33 <cbridge_> <sennomo> But it's a recognizable name.
12:22:41 <cbridge_> <sennomo> And by now, an established convention.
12:23:03 <crab> yeah it is what it is at this point
12:23:25 <crab> I would have preferred a convention that is more descriptive
12:23:57 <cbridge_> <sennomo> It's more imperative than descriptive.  ;)
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15:01:29 <cbridge_> <MrMobius> I never got why README is capitalized when linux people are so fanatical about putting everything in lower case
15:01:59 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> :-)  I always just assumed that someone felt that made it stand out more strongly.
15:02:59 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> I guess "overview," "summary," "synopsis," and so on capture some of the meaning.
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15:46:06 <cbridge_> -!- ChanServ changed mode/##forth -> +o crc 
15:48:11 <cbridge_> <crc> MrMobius: caps for README keeps it near the start of a directory listing, assuming a normal asciibetical sort
15:48:28 <cbridge_> <crc> Likewise INSTALL and others
15:51:37 <cbridge_> <sennomo> ^^
16:07:03 <cbridge_> <dave0> maw
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16:59:16 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | do drop >in | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN backup at http://forthworks.com/forth/irc-logs/ | If you have two (or more) stacks and speak RPN then you're welcome here! | https://github.com/mark4th'
16:59:16 --- topic: set by mark4!~mark4@cpe-75-191-74-68.triad.res.rr.com on [Sun Feb 28 11:55:01 2021]
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17:17:24 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> maw dave0
17:22:53 <cbridge_> <dave0> maw KipIngram 
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17:39:13 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Well, the annual ordeal of getting my car re-registered is successfully concluded for this year.
17:40:01 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> It's a 2011 Porsche Cayman S.  Back around 2013 or so I put an aftermarket turbo kit on it.  Really impressive - puts it up in 911 territory, and the Cayman is a mid-engine car and handles like a dream.
17:40:16 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Anyway, everything was great.  Got it inspected every year with no problem.
17:40:25 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Somewhere a few years later, I blew the engine.
17:40:53 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> There's a cooling system design flaw on that car - there's a "perfect storm" of driving conditions that will cause the cylinders on the left side of the engine to overheat.
17:41:02 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> The oil fails and the piston rings score the inside of the cylinder.
17:41:28 <mark4> i never had that problem in my old car, i just had apex seals wearing out :)
17:41:41 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> So, I had to get a new engine.  That was expensive, but it was also about 50k miles "younger" than my engine, so I viewed it as buying back part of the car's lifetime.
17:42:13 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Anyway, that's where the trouble began.  Two of the flock of "test ready flags" are incredibly stubborn about getting set.
17:42:28 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> In Texas you can still get an inspection with ONE not ready flag, but not with TWO.
17:42:34 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> So it's been an ordeal every single year.
17:42:54 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> But I took it to a place today recommended by a neighbor, and he was able to get one of the flags to set.
17:43:21 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> I took it to my usual shop on the way home and left it for the inspection (the first guy doesn't actually *do* inspections).
17:43:33 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> It passed and I'm all re-registered - just did that online.
17:43:36 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Yee ha...
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18:05:43 <cbridge_> <crashmatrix> hi everyone
18:06:22 <cbridge_> <crc> Hi crashmatrix
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18:31:55 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Greetings crashmatrix
18:32:04 <cbridge_> <tabemann> hey guys
18:32:28 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Hi tabemann
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19:00:24 <crab> postfix is taking over my life
19:01:12 <crab> just texted gf "I just ran into nick Giant @" and didn't realize until after I sent it
19:02:36 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> I like it.  :-)
19:07:01 <crab> now just to wait and see if she is confused by it
19:07:21 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> :-)
19:08:35 <crab> This just in: she was not confused
19:08:51 <crab> now to speak only in FORTH
19:31:24 <mark4> like yoda
19:31:32 <mark4> btw ILM used forth
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19:36:01 <cbridge_> <crc> mark4: do you have a reference for that?
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19:40:23 <mark4> i was looking for it, i cannot actually guarantee that it is 100% accurate but i heared it a long time ago
19:40:31 <mark4> cannto find ANy reference to it tho right now
19:42:27 <crc> Ok, no worries
19:42:59 <crab> ILM is?
19:43:20 <mark4> industrial light and magic
19:43:28 <mark4> they did the special effects for starwars etc
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20:28:58 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Man.  Dropbox for Fedora is pretty cumbersome.
20:29:09 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> I think it CAN DO everything, but it's a real pain to work with.
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20:54:29 <cbridge_> <crc> I haven't used Dropbox in several years
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21:10:16 <cbridge_> <dave0> maw
21:12:10 <cbridge_> <crc> Maw dave0
21:12:24 <cbridge_> <crc> I've been fixing bugs :)
21:13:17 <cbridge_> <dave0> not fun!
21:14:26 <cbridge_> <crc> No, it's good. One was related to adding support for bases (it allowed a buffer overflow when converting number to string when Base is set to 20, the other was a bug in my & (pointer) sigil
21:15:05 <cbridge_> <crc> The reports were enough for me to know where the issues lay immediately; so fixing is easy in this case
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21:16:03 <cbridge_> <dave0> crc: if base was specifically 20... but not 19 or 21 ?
21:16:20 <cbridge_> <crc> Base 2, sorry, not 20
21:16:25 <cbridge_> <dave0> aah
21:16:34 <cbridge_> <crc> I only support bases from 2 through 16
21:17:16 <cbridge_> <dave0> that's very normal
21:17:19 <cbridge_> <crc> Prior to this I only supported decimal
21:17:47 <cbridge_> <dave0> i did 36 because why not? it's as easy as going from 10 to 16
21:18:04 <cbridge_> <crc> I've not needed more than base 16
21:19:00 <cbridge_> <dave0> crc: i think KipIngram allows up to 62 which is just crazytalk ;-)
21:19:25 <cbridge_> <crc> dave0: many years ago I supported bases up to 256
21:19:56 <cbridge_> <dave0> crc: but there's not that many characters!
21:20:36 <cbridge_> <crc> Extended ASCII :)
21:20:36 <mark4> how the freek are you supposed to debug C code that segfaults when you run it but works 100% perfectly in the debugger?
21:21:18 <cbridge_> <crc> In reality, I never used that outside of some very limited amusements.
21:21:49 <cbridge_> <crc> 99.9% of the time I just use decimal. hex is useful for drivers and color codes.
21:24:05 <cbridge_> <dave0> crc: i looked into base64 you know the email standard for sending binary through text? it doesn't quite map directly to digits and letters so you can't set forth's base to 64 to trivially encode your binary
21:28:17 <cbridge_> <crc> I haven't written a base64 yet. I'm currently using uuencode for storing binaries as a textual format.
21:32:59 <cbridge_> <crc> mark4: no idea; I don't use debuggers for C :(
21:35:14 <cbridge_> <dave0> crc: there's a handful from just hex digits which doubles the size of your binary, base64 which i think expands by 4/3, to some usenet thing which is <1% expansion... and everything in between... wikipedia has a page on it
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21:37:01 <cbridge_> <crc> I'll write a base64 when I need it
21:37:22 <cbridge_> <crc> The expansion isn't really a concern in my case
21:37:40 <crab> maaw to you too dave0
21:37:51 <cbridge_> <dave0> maw crab
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21:39:42 <mark4> they all suck in linux for sure
21:39:58 <mark4> printf tracked down the function thats screwing up but i dont understand the screwup
21:40:22 <cbridge_> <crc> I think my boxes have gdb, but I don't use it
21:40:39 <mark4> maybe i do
21:41:05 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: paste the function?
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21:46:16 <mark4> cbridge_, its all pointer stuff im changing, im converting a 2 dim array into a 3 dim array and instead of instantiating it im allocating it and setting a pointer to it
21:46:45 <mark4> but... i need to be able to set the type of the pointer to a 3 dim array of structures
21:47:02 <mark4> im kind of in the middle of making changes so the paste wouldnt help lol
21:47:49 <mark4> how do you create a typedef for a pointer to an array of N dimensions?
21:48:12 <mark4> array_type_t *array_pointer;
21:48:29 <mark4> so array_pointer is a pointer to a 3 dimensionall array of structures
21:48:59 <mark4> i cant instantiate the array. i need to allocate it but it needs to be of the specified type
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21:51:21 <cbridge_> <crc> This I'm not sure on; I've only used typedef a couple of times
21:57:16 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: struct foo { ... }; struct foo matrix[3][4][5];   ... that'll declare a 3d thing called matrix... if the sizes are fixed, this is the easiest way to do it
21:58:06 <cbridge_> <dave0> if sizes are not fixed, you have to dynamically allocate it with malloc, and it is complicated
21:58:30 <cbridge_> <dave0> try hard to use fixed sizes, even if you waste some memory
21:59:40 <cbridge_> <crc> I don't use malloc :)
21:59:46 <mark4> cbridge_, thats instantiating the array
21:59:50 <mark4> im not doing that
21:59:55 <mark4> im allocating it
22:00:22 <mark4> but defining a pointer to a calloc'd buffer does not allow you to do buffer[x][y][x] = 1;
22:00:32 <cbridge_> <dave0> okay if you're allocating it,   struct foo { ... }; struct foo ***matrix;
22:00:45 <mark4> *** ?
22:02:08 <cbridge_> <dave0> yep, you can reference a particular element with normal array syntax    int x=1, y=2, z=3; matrix[x][y][z];
22:02:21 <mark4> why three stars
22:02:28 <cbridge_> <dave0> hold on a second
22:03:31 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: https://termbin.com/ordf
22:03:46 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: does your allocation code resemble that?
22:04:11 <cbridge_> <dave0> it's awfully ugly but that's how i do it
22:04:34 <mark4> yea and i dont understand one iota of it lol
22:04:41 <mark4> still do not understand why ***
22:04:49 <mark4> a pointer to a pointer to a pointer?
22:04:59 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: yep
22:05:13 <cbridge_> <crc> *shudder*
22:05:22 <mark4> so you are creating an array of pointeres to an array of pointers to an array of strucutres?
22:05:28 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: int *foo; is 1d    int **bar; is 2d    int ***qux; is 3d
22:05:50 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: yes. in my code it's int but you can simply change int to your struct
22:06:25 <cbridge_> <dave0> it's real ugly to allocate, it's vastly easier to use fized sizes
22:08:05 <mark4> ok the simple idea is to throw away ALl arrays for this and just allocate a buffer of x * y * z * sizeof(structure)
22:08:30 <cbridge_> <crc> dave0: I understand the code, but ... it makes me really uncomfortable to think about :)
22:10:17 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: that will work, but now indexing is ugly... say you do    struct foo *array = malloc(width * height * depth * sizeof(struct foo));   now to reference an element it's  array[x * height * depth + y * depth + z];
22:10:49 <cbridge_> <dave0> triple star lets you use [x][y][z] syntax
22:10:54 <mark4> yup
22:11:16 <mark4> c is so screwed up internally. how the hell did it ever get this far
22:13:47 <cbridge_> <dave0> brb
22:14:07 <cbridge_> <crc> mark4: how would you do this in forth?
22:17:26 <mark4> well in forth you dont actually have arrays :)
22:17:53 <mark4> so you create a word that creates them and you can create words that index into them
22:18:12 <mark4> but you are creating specific purpose words not GP 
22:18:26 <mark4> i.e. your words wont work with any array of any size element
22:18:50 <mark4> you might have a word that calculates an index based off of 3 parameters
22:19:19 <mark4> but unless you are storing type information in a header on your array it wont return the address of the indexed item for *ANY* sized array
22:19:38 <mark4> tho... thats possible if you do have type info in a header on the array
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22:20:16 <mark4> you would create a word to create an x by y by z array of #bytes elements... 
22:20:31 <mark4> even then you would need separate words for 1/2/3/4/5/6 dim arrays
22:21:03 <mark4> i have words to index into 1 dimenstional arrays for 8 bit, 16 bit, 32 bit and 64 bit items
22:21:32 <mark4> [c]@  [c]!  [w]@ [w]! etc
22:21:56 <mark4> i could create words to index into 2 dim arrays of bytes/words etc
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22:22:08 <mark4> 2[c]@  2[c]! etc
22:23:19 <cbridge_> <dave0> i read in a compiler book that you can put the sizes before the array in memory...    depth height width array [...depth*height*width number of elements...]  and then   width is: array 1 cells - @    height is: array 2 cells - @   depth is: array 3 cells - @
22:23:44 <mark4> or 3 dim arrays with 3[c]@ etc
22:23:44 <mark4> where the digit in the name is the number of parameters :)
22:23:44 <mark4> you can go crazy with forth :)
22:23:54 <mark4> : 2[c]@ ( x y addr --- c1 ) -rot * + c@ ; or something  
22:24:29 <cbridge_> <crc> You could do similar with C, though the names would be longer
22:26:48 <cbridge_> <dave0> i would have expected to do it in forth syntax:      1 2 3 array    to get element (c syntax) array[1][2][3]
22:29:20 <mark4> : 2[w]@ ( x y addr --- w1 ) -rot * 2* + w@ ;
22:29:20 <mark4> or instead of -rot you could do >r * 2* r> +
22:29:20 <mark4> which would probably be faster
22:29:20 <mark4> by a hugely insignificant amount :)
22:32:44 <crab> what is this nasty C code in forth group
22:35:01 <cbridge_> <crc> crab: discussion around mark4's problem with a 3 dimensional array
22:36:24 <crab> oh no, arrays of higher dimension
22:37:45 <mark4> crab when i started this channel my primary desire was to have no topic off topic as long as were not trolling :)
22:37:53 <mark4> and ya we can even talk forth :)
22:38:20 <mark4> this channel is free and open for any discussion 
22:38:37 <mark4> but yea... talking C in a forth channel IS herecy lol
22:38:45 <cbridge_> <crc> I did extract a little forth discussion out of it :)
22:39:11 <mark4> indeed.. doing something in c often raises the "how would yo do that in forth" question
22:39:17 <crab> I notice that folks are more willing to heavily abstract data than procedures
22:39:40 <crab> oh I don't mind it, I'm just being a galoot
22:39:50 <cbridge_> <crc> (Now I'm considering how to write a sigil to let me do C style [] addressing into an array)
22:39:53 <crab> (the non forth convo)
22:40:35 <mark4> even thats not off topic :)
22:41:58 <mark4>     #define MAP_PAGE_SIZE (TMAP_WIDTH * TMAP_HEIGHT * sizeof(tile_t))
22:41:58 <mark4>     tile = tile_map + (MAP_PAGE_SIZE * map_page);
22:41:59 <mark4>     tile += (tile_x + (tile_y * sizeof(tile_t));
22:42:24 <mark4> tile_map is tile_t *tile_map; which i calloc
22:49:14 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Yes, my number converter works up to base 62.
22:49:42 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Just because it can, it's what you can get with digits 0-9, A-Z, and a-z.
22:49:58 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Below base 37 it is case insensitive, so hex digits can be upper or lower case.
22:50:13 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> I'm almost certain never to use it.
22:50:30 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Who knows?  I might decide to investigate Sumerian astronomy at some point.
22:50:43 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> They did astronomy calcs in base 60.
22:50:46 <cbridge_> <KipIngram> Good memory, dave0.  :-)
22:50:46 <cbridge_> <crc> I'm case sensitive
22:51:14 <cbridge_> <crc> KipIngram: that's the one time I've used higher than base 16, many years ago
22:51:21 <cbridge_> <dave0> KipIngram: i'm good with remembering numbers, hopeless remembering names !
22:51:53 <crab> start memorizing peoples names in ascii
22:52:00 <crab> problem solved
22:52:47 <cbridge_> <dave0> i can't even spell my own name in ascii :-p
22:53:13 <crab> 68 65 86 69
22:53:41 <cbridge_> <dave0> you're weird :-p
22:53:43 <crab> would do you good to remember that the alphabet starts at 65
22:55:35 <crab> even carries over to unicode
22:56:10 <crab> I wish they didnt put punctuation between upcase and lowcase though
22:57:34 <mark4> tile_t (*pages)[8][8] = malloc(8 * sizeof *pages);
22:57:54 <cbridge_> <crc> dave0: or, if you prefer lowercase, 100 97 118 101
22:58:04 <mark4> creates a pointer to an array of 8x8 tiles. then allocates 8 instances of that data type
23:00:08 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: yes but now the sizes are fixed (except for the outer-most)
23:00:34 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: if the sizes are fixed, you can use the vastly simpler  tile_t pages[8][8][8];
23:01:16 <cbridge_> <dave0> assuming you don't /have/ to malloc it
23:01:46 <mark4> i DO have to malloc it :)
23:01:49 <cbridge_> <dave0> mark4: a significant amount of people on ##c like that method   (*pages)[8][8]
23:02:19 <mark4> well.. i do because i refuse to have 8 * 8 * 8 instances of a tile_t included in the binary :P
23:02:30 <mark4> 1 so far :P
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/21.06.01