00:00:00 --- log: started forth/21.05.28
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05:27:42 <KipIngram> Morning folks.
05:29:54 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> good morning KipIngram
05:31:53 <cbridge-freenode> <mtsd> Good morning
05:36:11 <KipIngram> Got a bonus day off, in conjunction with the Memorial day weekend.  Four day weekend - I can work with that.
05:36:28 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> nice
05:36:53 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I'm working today, but it'll likely be slow, so I have some time for project stuff
05:41:27 <cbridge-freenode> <neuro_sys> I started casually on emacs-like code editor with Forth. Although I doubt I'll have a lot of time for it.
05:42:19 <cbridge-freenode> <neuro_sys> Forth is a joy to start coding immediately without hassle.
05:42:40 <cbridge-freenode> <neuro_sys> The other day I started another hobby project with C, and took me a whole day to set up the build tools and the project boilerplate etc.
05:42:56 <cbridge-freenode> <neuro_sys> Then again, that one uses a lot of third party libraries.
05:44:10 <cbridge-freenode> <neuro_sys> But with forth one, I dropped in a few forth source files into the folder, and require them was all. No separate compiler/linker configuration steps.
05:44:55 <cmtptr> to be fair, that's pretty platform/environment dependent.  you could say the same of python
05:45:51 <cmtptr> for some reason c has never had a very good build system, which is weird because it's one that would benefit from it the most
05:49:18 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I find working with C to be ok, but I have few dependencies (other than libc, I use libm sometimes), and generally not more than 1-2 source files total
05:51:45 <cbridge-freenode> <neuro_sys> You don't use CMake or a build tool I suppose?
05:54:27 <KipIngram> neuro_sys: My editor uses an emacs like key mechanism for control (i.e., ctrl-<whatever>).  The keys I actually chose for various motions and commands are more like vim than emacs, though.
05:54:33 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> For Retro, I do use `make`, but mainly as it fits better into the various ports/packaging systems on BSD
05:55:42 <KipIngram> I improved my "first bit of block."  
05:56:47 <KipIngram> I realized that the assembly word (block) doesn't have to return to block if it's successful in finding the block resident.  It gets the buffer address on the stack and then we're DONE - it can pop the return stack into RIP before running next and just skip over the rest of block.
05:57:13 <KipIngram> That saves time, and eliminates the need for the zero failure flag to be returned and the need for block to test for it if it gets control back.
05:57:16 <KipIngram> Win, win, win.
05:57:24 <KipIngram> Now block is just
05:57:38 <KipIngram> : block  (block) ... other stuff if (block) fails ... ;
05:57:44 <proteusguy> yeah blocks!
05:58:03 <KipIngram> I do plan a file system, but I'm making it myself on top of blocks.
05:58:12 <KipIngram> A b+tree for each file.
05:59:53 <KipIngram> For very small files that will be a significant space overhead, but that initial one-block b+tree will suffice for a file up to between one and two MB in size.
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06:03:33 <KipIngram> Of course standard Forth really doesn't have any words that will incrementally increase the size of a region of data on disk.  There's no concept of "writing to disk."  Everything is really just manipulating memory.  
06:03:50 <KipIngram> This file system I've got planned will support the idea of a block of the file not being fully used.
06:04:03 <KipIngram> So file "size" will vary by bytes, like you'd expect.
06:04:07 <proteusguy> Filesystems can be deep dark holes if you aren't careful... :-) Kinda intriguing and distracting.
06:04:26 <KipIngram> Yes, I can imagine.
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06:05:16 <KipIngram> The notion sort of grew out of my plans for a "comment database" that will let me store code commentary remote from the code itself, which evolved out of thinking about shadow screens.
06:05:25 <KipIngram> That's what brought the notion of a b+tree into my thinking.
06:05:40 <KipIngram> Then from there I realized it could very efficiently specify the block membership of a file as well.
06:06:06 <KipIngram> And the "comment database" idea grew into the idea of a full documentation "wiki structure."
06:06:33 <KipIngram> If you start thinking about a comment database that links comments to code, then you can imagine "comments on comments" and you've got a full-on wiki.
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06:11:21 <KipIngram> The idea here is that while editing source code, the editor will consult the "link b+tree" to see if the edit point is linked to.  If it is, it will open an additional window on the screen and display the link text (and allow editing it).  There won't be any marker or anything in the source to say "I have a comment" - I'll just look that location up in the b+tree and see if it's covered by any entries there. 
06:11:23 <KipIngram> If it is, that b+tree record will also contain a similar pointer to the link text.
06:11:36 <KipIngram> b+tree will be sorted b "linked to locations."
06:12:05 <KipIngram> Feels like an almost perfect application of a b+tree - takes full advantage of all of its strengths.
06:12:36 <KipIngram> Historically I have always "undercommented," primarily because I don't like how inline comments make my source code LOOK.  
06:12:49 <KipIngram> Which is a ridiculous way to behave, but I've never been able to shake it.
06:13:07 <KipIngram> This way the comments are "right there at hand" and accessible, but aren't "in my source."
06:13:30 <KipIngram> Plus it allows this "tiered hierarchical" documentation structure.
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06:14:26 <KipIngram> Suddenly I have all the room in the world to say as much as I want - I'll be able to do an extremely thorough job of documenting if I feel like it.
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06:16:50 <KipIngram> It raises the significance of the editor.  I was pretty pleased with my editor the last go round - it was right at one block of source and was pretty powerful.  But this time I will want more - that's where all the "nimble ability" to hop around this documentation space will be contained.
06:17:18 <KipIngram> I do not intend to wrap lines, though.
06:17:35 <KipIngram> When I'm actually editing, I'm editing a LINE, and the neighboring lines don't move.
06:17:53 <KipIngram> That will make it much easier to keep the link database consistent.
06:18:09 <KipIngram> Updating a line will not affect links to neighboring lines.
06:18:26 <KipIngram> I despise Forth source lines that wrap anyway.
06:19:19 <KipIngram> Shouldn't be a problem - all the Forth I've written while building this system has been coming in around 35-45 characters per line anyway.
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06:31:20 <KipIngram> Hahahahahahah...
06:31:54 <KipIngram> Apple is limiting iPad Pro developers to 5GB of application size - described in the press as a "severe limitation."
06:32:00 <KipIngram> That's thoroughly laughable!
06:32:46 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> the RAM limit?
06:33:30 <KipIngram> Yes.
06:33:53 <KipIngram> Even on iPad Pro's with 16GB RAM.  A dev reported that the app crashes if you try to allocate more than 5.
06:34:03 <KipIngram> But - "SEVERE limitation????"
06:34:15 <KipIngram> Good grief - what can you NOT do in 5 GB?
06:34:30 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> editing very large video files?
06:34:45 <KipIngram> I suppose, if you have to have it all loaded at once.
06:34:50 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> run a small web app?
06:35:28 <KipIngram> I know - I'm being deliberately obtuse.  I know the tools have evolved away from efficient RAM usage.
06:35:42 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I know :)
06:35:46 <KipIngram> But... I write Forth.
06:36:20 <KipIngram> Oh gosh, the hosptial where my newborn grandson is (my first) has a setup where I can log in and see him live on a webcam.
06:36:28 <KipIngram> That's pretty fantastic.
06:36:42 <KipIngram> Except I'm never going to be able to get my wife's attention now - she's going to be glued to that thing 24/7.
06:36:44 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I write iOS apps; there's a lot of really inefficient code & libraries out there
06:36:50 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Nice
06:37:00 <KipIngram> Yes, I understand really.
06:37:20 <KipIngram> My kids talk about how much space is taken up on their phones, and it always just boggles my mind.
06:39:55 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Lots of waste in modern systems.
06:43:59 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> a *huge* factor of my being drawn to forth is working all day on iOS and Android apps at $WORK
06:44:43 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> the sheer complexity for the sake of complexity involved in many of these systems is both laughable and totally exhausting.
06:46:53 <KipIngram> Yes.
06:51:29 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I do some iOS development, but nothing that's really complex
06:52:31 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> yeah! Your retro app on iOS got me dreaming about forth systems on iOS!
06:52:49 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> also, I'm always shocked Apple approved your gemini browser :P 
06:52:58 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> gopher*
06:53:10 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I have more trouble keeping retro approved
06:53:13 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> not because of the app, but because it lets you actually browser stuff external to the app
06:53:46 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> feel free to hit me up if there is ever anything I can do to help with that -- I don't have an in or anything, but spend most of my time at work getting dozens of client apps through
06:54:25 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> thanks, I may take you up on that if I get stuck
06:54:25 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> I wish I didn't have the eldritch knowledge of the app review process, but, here I am 
06:55:19 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> One of these days I need to code a proper terminal emulation for it
06:57:17 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> i'd much rather code in forth though
06:58:38 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> agreed
06:59:00 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> granted, I haven't broke myself of my lua habits, yet, so it is still my go-to over a forth
06:59:06 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> one 🤞
06:59:09 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> one day*
07:00:06 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I'm forth first, but it took a long time to get to that point
07:01:04 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> nice, yeah, retro is defo the forth I dream of using -- it seems to be the most capable for what I'd want to do with it (mostly toys)
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07:03:38 <cbridge-freenode> <KipIngram> retro has only one shortcoming for me: it's not my system.  I'm having a lot of fun building my own, very carefully.
07:04:26 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> legit -- I dream of doing something like that, one day -- just don't have the time to wrap my head around it all.
07:04:49 <cmtptr> KipIngram, great, train them to accept the surveillance state while they're young
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07:12:19 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> writing your own is best in many ways; it's great to have something you can fully understand and maintain
07:13:47 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> 100% -- I figure I should get to know what I want using other folks' systems first 
07:14:14 <cmtptr> if it's anything like my experience, it will also cause you to hate programming as you begin to understand how complex features in other languages you take for granted really are
07:15:05 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> lol
07:15:05 <cbridge-freenode> <eli_oat> always the fear 
07:15:49 <cmtptr> even c - it never occurred to me how much i'd miss not having polymorphic assignment until i wrote my own forth
07:16:32 <cmtptr> i guess that /shouldn't/ matter in a "pure" forth since all things should be one cell wide, but not in mine...
07:18:53 <cmtptr> s/miss not having/miss/  bit of a double-negative there
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07:42:54 <veltas> Not just that but also not everything is an integer
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07:53:46 <cmtptr> are you talking about auto-cast?  assigning a float value to something meant to store an integer?
07:54:10 <cmtptr> i hadn't thought of that one either... i don't think that would bother me as much, but maybe there's some case where it would and i just haven't noticed it
08:01:16 <cbridge-freenode> <Zarutian_HTC> is there such a thing existant that is basically an framebuffer with address/data r/w port on one end and hdmi on the other?
08:03:00 <Zarutian_HTC> because I have seen lot of hardware projects that have vga out but monitors that have such inputs are getting rarer
08:09:43 <cbridge-freenode> <Zarutian_HTC> 
ACTION finds https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/from-a-framebuffer-to-hdmi-any-off-the-shelf-solutions/

08:42:31 <cbridge-freenode> -!- Glider_IRC__(~Glider_IR@user/glider-irc/x-8947477) has left ##forth
08:53:22 <mark4> just emailed ras again now that the storm has ?mostly? passed asking for my founter status to be reinstated.  they are doing this service for many other channels so why not this one :)
08:53:38 <mark4> joint founder with crc would be awesome :)
08:54:01 <mark4> or even give it to crc outright. as long as we have an active, live, real person founder lol
09:08:00 <KipIngram> I hope they are willing to do that - you guys have been nothing but supportive of them, and this channel has been well operated for as long as I've been hanging around.
09:08:17 <KipIngram> You and crc have made it a pleasant environment.
09:29:29 <mark4> it was all him :)
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10:42:32 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> mark4 please keep us informed as to how you make out with that
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10:56:26 <mark4> you bet
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18:17:25 <mark4> he told me i already have oper status in here, not sure if thats a "that should be good enough" or if he did not understand the nature of the petition
18:23:05 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I feel like that's a misunderstanding of the petition
18:26:06 <mark4> well i emailed clarification 30 seconds after his response email and that was over an hour ago
18:26:27 <mark4> and the last thing im going to do is pester him lol
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18:35:17 <mark4> ras has asked me to take it up with the staff in #freenode-services
18:35:26 <mark4> so i posted the petition in there now :)
18:44:50 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Ok
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19:07:44 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Mark4: looks like the founder has updated to you per ChanServ
19:08:07 <mark4> yea
19:08:17 <mark4> foxy just made me founder :)
19:08:28 <mark4> im asking him/her if you can also be added as founder
19:08:30 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Nice :)
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19:10:57 <cmtptr> seems if you are a founder you should be able to set other founders, right?
19:11:27 <mark4> as founder do i have the ability to add a successor?
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19:12:12 <crc> You should, unless something has changed
19:14:17 <mark4> well i can set you as the founder but not as the successor, or as dual 
19:14:30 <crc> Interesting
19:14:37 <crc> I wonder when that changed
19:16:39 <mark4> not sure
19:16:49 <mark4> but foxy was not able to add you as co founder
19:16:50 <mark4> either
19:21:00 <crc> No worries. At least it's registered again.
19:21:58 <mark4> ya
19:29:51 <cbridge-freenode> <dave0> maw
19:30:06 <mark4> im kind of in a good mood now lol
19:30:48 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Hi dave0
19:32:06 <crc> Same. I've had a productive day, and a long weekend beginning.
19:34:14 <cbridge-freenode> <dave0> hey crc
19:34:35 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> What's new?
19:35:27 <cbridge-freenode> <dave0> nuffing, i slept in
19:35:30 <cbridge-freenode> <dave0> how's crc?
19:35:45 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Having a good evening :)
19:36:58 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Work was uneventful, I finished a few coding tasks from my todo list, mark4 regained control of #forth on freenode, and now just catching up on the last free hours of logs & email
19:37:16 <cbridge-freenode> <dave0> oh the whole freenode thing
19:37:33 <cbridge-freenode> <dave0> i left in style by getting k-line'd ;-)
19:37:54 <mark4> i dont think k-lines are perm are they?
19:38:23 <cbridge-freenode> <dave0> dunno i haven't tried to go back lol
19:38:46 <crc> mark4: some are (or were), normally they are temporary
19:39:05 <cbridge-freenode> <dave0> i'll try
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19:39:49 <dave0> seems to have worked
19:40:24 <crc> Looks good
19:53:51 <mark4> so unless anyone objects im giving Bogen85 oper status in here, he IS a forth coder :)
19:53:54 <mark4> a damned good one too
19:54:22 --- mode: ChanServ set +v Bogen85
19:54:31 <mark4> i think thats how you do it lol
19:55:20 <Bogen85> heh
19:55:45 <mark4> oh and he is also a long standing personal friend of mine :)
19:55:47 <mark4> IRL
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19:58:57 <mark4> 0x1d3 that number rings a bell. is that the printer IO port in dos or something?
20:04:45 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> It looks familiar, but I can't recall :(
20:05:04 <KipIngram> No objection from me.
20:06:01 <KipIngram> Is that the little + before our nicks?
20:06:18 <KipIngram> Someone did that to me without me even realizing it until later.  :-)
20:06:54 <crc> that's voice, no op
20:07:07 <KipIngram> What is voice exactly?
20:07:08 <crc> Op is often an @ by the name
20:07:17 <KipIngram> Got it.
20:07:21 <crc> In a moderated channel, voice lets you speak
20:08:01 <KipIngram> How is "speak" different from posting?
20:08:20 <KipIngram> Like I don't see a + before dave0's nick, but I see his messages just fine.
20:08:48 <KipIngram> Sorry to be ignorant here.
20:08:58 <dave0> oh that's for moderated
20:09:16 <dave0> if the channel was   /mode +m    then only ops and voice (+) can speak
20:09:21 <crc> The channel isn't quieted/moderated
20:09:31 <crc> as dave0 said :)
20:09:36 <mark4> voice kinid of means nothing unless the channel is moderated. if we set mode +m in here nobody wihtout +v can speak
20:09:41 <KipIngram> Oh, ok - so  if someone threw a switch to make this channel moderated, it would mean something more.
20:09:45 <crc> We've only made use of that a couple of times
20:09:56 <KipIngram> Got it.
20:10:01 <mark4> but the channel is set to auto +v logged in opers but they can set it to auto +o them too
20:11:00 <crc> yeah. Or you can `/msg chanserv op #forth` to claim ops if you need them
20:12:28 <mark4> thats like a max of 3 times that i know of where ops were NEEDED in here
20:12:49 <mark4> well actually there were 284528945's of times where we could have taken action against trolls but were patient
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20:13:45 <crc> I'm not as patient now... I will do my best to stop trolls and keep the channel going.
20:15:11 <KipIngram> There used to be a guy in here who I think was Russian, who I felt like just never had anything good to say about Forth.
20:15:18 <KipIngram> I felt like he hung out here to be a pain.
20:15:27 <KipIngram> Some years ago.
20:15:29 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Yes, ASas/DGASAU
20:15:36 <KipIngram> YES - Asau.
20:15:49 <KipIngram> He could be real annoying.
20:16:00 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> He used to deal maintain a fork of pforth
20:16:20 <KipIngram> I don't understand why - he didn't seem to LIKE forth.
20:16:32 <KipIngram> Or at least that's how it felt to me.
20:17:10 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I think he soured on it after dealing with issues in his fork of pforth. He wasn't always as bad as he ended up being.
20:17:20 <KipIngram> I see.
20:17:53 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I *should* have dealt with him sooner though. :(
20:17:54 <KipIngram> We're about to get another blow, it seems.  Lot of wind out there.
20:18:13 <KipIngram> Thunder/lightning, etc.
20:18:22 <crc> I love a good storm
20:18:50 <mark4> yea we suffered some extreme trollism :)
20:21:32 <mark4> he also trolled CLF a lot
20:22:06 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> I gave up on CLF due to the trolls
20:22:36 <mark4> most of the trolls i saw on there were the regulars lol
20:23:37 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Indeed. But it used to be better. The trolls pushed almost everyone else out.
20:23:52 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> here we can deal with them though
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22:20:08 <cbridge-freenode> <dave0> re maw
22:46:28 <cbridge-freenode> <crc> Hello again
22:50:51 <cbridge-freenode> -!- ChanServ changed mode/##forth -> +v KipIngram 
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