00:00:00 --- log: started forth/21.05.23 00:12:42 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 00:25:54 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 00:33:08 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:43:34 proteusguy: Yes it is indeed great. There was a bug hiding in there, that MacOS was letting slide and Linux wouldn't. So it didn't *immediatley* work, and I was distressed. But the bug turned out to be completely unrelated to the whole syscall / ioctl business. 01:47:09 proteusguy: Agree with your comment on the "level of entitlement" 100%. I still haven't been able to figure out why the previous staff felt like they were "decision makers" in any way. 01:48:19 I think a lot of people are turning this into some sort of "crucible" of political philosophy. It's just a change of ownership. New owners make new decisions - that's just how it is. 01:50:26 proteusguy: The bug was in one of my cmove words (there are two, one bottom to top and one top to bottom, so you can handle overlapping buffers). One of mine was moving N+1 bytes instead of N bytes. 01:51:12 It looks like I did that on purpose, and I think it was to handle a need when I was coding EXPECT. But that was just a flat out mistake - that 1+ should have been outside the call to the cmove - not done by cmove itself. 01:51:59 When my error recovery system snapshots the system, it snapshots the entire memory region where the definitions live because the stacks live at the top of that and need to be included. 01:52:15 So that caused the +1 byte to fall outside the allocated buffer. 01:52:37 It's VERY GOOD that I managed to catch this - now it's fixed and all is well. 01:53:00 So the actual syscall/ioctl changes were as straightforward and mechanical as I expected them to be. 02:01:08 I feel kind of bad for ever putting that 1+ inside cmove at all - as I was figuring that out, I was like "What the hell was I thinking???" 02:01:49 In the header region there is nothing going on at the high end of the region, so error recovery only snapshots the in-use portion. 02:02:23 I perhaps should pull my stacks down into an allocated region contiguous with the other stuff, so that there's no longer the need to move that whole large region. 02:03:26 Or, even better, maybe I should explicitly allocate a "task" region which would contains the stacks. That actually paves the way better for multi-tasking sometime in the future. 02:05:36 My last Forth worked more like that - there was a 4kB task region. Held the stacks, a "stash section" for remember register values when the task is swapped out, and so on. A register always pointed to the now-running task (though my stack pointers didn't use relative addressing off of that - they pointed independently into that region). 02:06:17 If I do that, though, then I'll need to save that region as well when I snapshot the system. 02:24:36 KipIngram, off by one errors - classic bug for a classic language! haha ;-) 02:26:51 No kidding. 02:27:37 I was just a little surprised at myself, on hindsight, for deliberately introducing an inc instruction into cmove. That was OBVIOUSLY a wrong t hing to do. Oh well. 02:28:38 crc: So, we said a couple of things re: UTF-8 over the last couple of days. It occurred to me this morning that 32-bit and 64-bit systems are nice in that regard - you can hold any UTF-8 character as a TOS element. 02:29:30 So the "character oriented" things we've written over the years for ASCII could port in a way that remains "character oriented" with a little thought. 02:30:05 KEY and EMIT could both work just fine with UTF-8 items. 02:31:36 It would just be necessary to break the "character == byte" mindset that ASCII work cultivates. 02:32:28 yep - but lots of classic forth string handling assumes that. so definitely need to be utf aware type aware going forward (which is a good idea anyway). 02:34:06 I imagine it would be a tough habit to break, but I agree it's a good idea. 02:40:30 So, what is strlen(s) when s is utf-8? 02:40:39 Is it the number of characters, or the number of bytes? 02:40:51 I guess there has to be calls for both. 02:42:27 There are a lot of functions that relate to positions within strings that would face this issue, and depending on what you're in the process of doing there are good reasons to want to work with "character arrays" and "byte arrays." 02:43:16 I have the feeling you'd only need the bytes info at the lowest levels (like if you want to move the string using cmove / rep movsb). 02:47:10 strlen should be the number of characters, not the number of bytes. 02:47:35 sizeof will be number of bytes. 02:48:27 That feels right. 03:26:25 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 03:29:01 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 03:37:36 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 06:03:21 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 07:16:42 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 07:25:28 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 07:25:44 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 07:28:22 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 07:59:15 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 08:11:59 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 09:34:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +v mark4 09:41:33 freenode just changed their policy document, removing the line about banning hate speech. I'm out. 30 days notice. 09:55:17 Lord_Nightmare: link to commit? 09:55:46 lol rasengan really making it easy to leave huh 09:56:00 giving more reasons to leave* 10:00:33 speach, even hate speach is a protected activity in my country 10:00:42 fighting words however are not 10:00:44 Lord_Nightmare: found it 10:00:47 https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/commits/2037126831a84c57f978268f090fc663cf43ed7a 10:00:51 you do not have the right to not be offended 10:01:11 people are getting butt hurt and bent out of shape over protected rightrs 10:01:13 rights 10:01:52 I grew up hearing a cliche phrase: "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me." I actually grew up believing those. 10:01:53 good to know unlawful activities are now not off topic! 10:02:07 removing draconian policy is someething im 100% for 10:02:16 why is banning hate speech draconian 10:02:25 this is a public forum, you have a choice to mute someone or leave 10:02:37 "hate speech" to me is like, inciting violence and shit 10:02:42 you can't truly defend that? 10:02:42 there is no reason for the service to dictate what an individual may or may not sya 10:02:44 say 10:02:45 Well, not everyone may feel that way, but as mark4 points out freedom of speech is a core tenet of American culture. 10:02:54 Those of us who are older still take it pretty seriously. 10:02:56 And FREENODE 10:02:57 well yeah, it's freenode's policy, freenode is privately owned 10:03:07 freenode have the right to say you can't say whatever you want 10:03:22 i take more issue with the removal of the illegal filesharing stuff being banned 10:03:22 if freenode banned the word "tomato", you'd just have to live with that. No violation happened there. Because you are using their platform 10:03:25 if i say something hateful to you, you can block me. YOU can place me on ignore 10:03:27 they choose what they platform 10:03:29 Yes, they do. But also the right to not say that. 10:03:51 thing is, they are REMOVING draconian rules, not instituting them 10:04:03 nihilazo: inciting violence is never ok, agreed 10:04:03 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1396268481524293633 is another problem 10:04:07 the draco socialists are the ones whose collective pussy hurts over it 10:04:19 Freedom of speech isn't a thing just people's feelings can be hurt. The idea is that difficult issues require difficult discussion. If you ban the discussion no progress can be made and no agreements reached. 10:04:19 i see no problem 10:04:33 the hate speech rules are still there but in a different document section now 10:04:40 and they cover everything they did before 10:04:46 i missed them the first read 10:04:49 yeah the chanserv thing is the problem for me 10:04:53 Oh, well, then this is a moot point, I guess. 10:04:53 the larger problem 10:04:56 not only do you NOT have a right to not be offended, i have an absolute, inalienable right to offend you 10:05:06 we should move to libera or something 10:05:09 freenode is a sinking ship 10:05:13 I bet it will not even exist a year from now 10:05:14 i'm already there 10:05:19 inalienable: not subject to alienation. cannot be bought or solde, NOT subject to transfer. 10:05:26 is there a #forth on there? 10:05:27 you cannot take it i cannot give it 10:05:27 I will join 10:05:28 Lord_Nightmare: i see the filesharing rules were moved 10:05:39 but the hate speech ones were deleted 10:05:46 i will never in my life set foot on that network 10:05:48 My understanding is that the ##forth on Libera is a "backup" of this channel. 10:05:49 not for one second 10:05:54 A bridge was mentioned. 10:06:00 THEY are the ones spreading hate and disinformation 10:06:09 they hate lee because he is a trump supporter 10:06:10 period 10:06:58 KipIngram: key word is invective 10:06:59 no, we hate lee because he performed a hotile takeover of freenode and caused all the staff to leave lmao 10:07:10 I didn't even know that he was a trump supporter before you just said it lol 10:07:23 you been drinkin the wrong coolaid dood, he did not do a hostile takeover 10:07:31 in fact he tried on many occasions to work with them 10:07:31 those rules ban insults based on inherent characteristics of a person 10:07:39 they were the ones burying their head up their asses 10:07:41 closing their eyes 10:07:45 I mean, literally all the staff who resigned called it a hostile takeover 10:07:53 sticking their fingers in their ears and humming loudly to themselves 10:07:53 I trust freenode staff with what happens to freenode staff 10:07:59 * KipIngram just thinks both sides have gotten carried away with this. 10:08:00 more than I trust some random dude on #forth lmao 10:08:13 those who leave. good luck to you. 10:08:27 im staying here. i see zero evidence of nefarious motives from lee 10:08:32 the opposite in fact 10:08:35 the fact that some people on #forth are defending the removal of the hate speech rule with such intensity is very unfortunate 10:08:46 the random dood who created the channel you mean 10:09:07 everyone has always been welcome in this chhanel 10:09:17 my PRIME directive when i created it was that NO subject is off limits 10:09:19 other than trolling 10:09:32 and we suffered that for a great deal of time with certain individual 10:09:38 it was a LONG TIME before they were banned 10:10:11 it's not just about us, now harassment and attacks are not off limits 10:10:15 the only hate speach i see is the hate speach coming from those who resigned 10:10:25 /ignore ... . . 10:10:33 Lord_Nightmare retracted his comment that the hate speech rule had been removed. 10:10:38 We should drop that topic. 10:10:44 It was a mistake. 10:10:54 it seems removed to me? 10:10:59 Scroll back up - he corrected it. 10:11:01 It was moved. 10:11:08 He said the same behaviors are still banned. 10:11:14 kind of does not matter, this is a public, OPEN forum 10:11:16 Just a few dozen lines back up. 10:11:29 moved to where? I need to see in the actual doc 10:11:46 did he give a CLEAR, non vague definition for hate peach? 10:11:55 or can any disagreement be considered a bannable offense now 10:11:57 You'll have to get that from him. 10:12:05 void for vagueness. 10:12:12 Lord_Nightmare: can you clarify, so we can get past this? 10:12:22 Lord_Nightmare: i'm afraid it is not moved 10:12:26 but deleted 10:12:34 there's only 2 commits after that removal 10:12:55 so a "gentoo" "no ubuntu" "no gentoo" .... discussion is hate speach maybe 10:13:10 mark4: stop being hyperbolic 10:13:30 * KipIngram facepalms 10:15:13 the chanserv thing is because channel owners relocated to libera chat and left their topics here to indicate that they were abandoning and relenquishing their registration 10:15:35 it is a fair response to assume the channel is abandoned 10:15:42 rasengan is very reactionary right now 10:16:02 yep, and the very creation of libera was reactionary 10:16:15 here's a thought: live and let live 10:16:24 more irc networks is better than fewer, imo 10:16:28 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:16:29 Indeed. 10:16:36 reclaiming a dead channel name might not look so bad, but it goes against 20 years of Freenode convention, and the policy was changed retroactively 10:17:11 it's a developing situation 10:17:22 the circumstances changed, it is fair for the new ownership to change policy in reaction 10:18:46 You guys ever have a favorite radio station that suddenly changes formats on you? Yesterday it was classic rock, today it's country? It's been a while, but I have experienced that. Things change. Something existing in a certain way for a period of time doesn't make it sacrosanct. There's always someone in control that can choose to change things at any time. That sort of thing isn't "criminal," even 10:18:48 though if you liked it better before it might be disappointing to you. 10:20:00 There's nothing inherently wrong with such change. And there is nothing inherently wrong with people who are displeased by it going off and starting their own radio station. 10:21:04 it's late here, but I'm left with a bad taste of what's to come 10:21:05 This notion that freenode has some sort of holy spiritual identity / existence is just... well, it's false. 10:21:11 will see how it develops 10:21:27 It's a bunch of computer equipment and someone who owns it is changing what's being done with it. 10:24:16 link to GH discussion 10:24:19 https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/files#r637536464 10:29:43 free speech is about the relation between you and the state under which you are a citizen, it has nothing to do with you and any corporation or similar entity 10:30:30 free speech is also a concept 10:30:44 a corporation asking you not to commit crime through its services isn't about free speech, it's about ease of commerce or operation for that entity 10:30:56 what crime? 10:31:00 it was mentioned in a legal concept above 10:31:32 context 10:32:05 the text in the commit link is about unlawful i.e. criminal behaviour 10:32:11 legal concepts are open to interpreatation which is why Fred Rodell, a professor of law said "When a judge makes some legal determination based on some principal of law he is performing a slight of hand trick equal to when a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat" 10:32:46 saying what you think is only a crime to the socialist thought police that left this and went to create a new server 10:32:50 the law needs to be interpreted to determine how it is to be applied in a particular case 10:33:04 quite basic and calling it a magic trick is just confusing 10:33:21 cess11, i did not say that a harvad professor of law did 10:33:24 mark4, it still says that unlawful activities and related support activities are considered off-topic 10:33:28 er, cess11, not mark4 10:34:08 so 10:34:42 mark4: you brought it up, apparently you thought it was somehow profound or interesting, with which i disagree 10:35:08 cess11, it is profound, it is interested and it is relevant to what is happening here :) 10:35:10 but!!!! 10:35:19 you and I can disagree and i am not going to be hating on you 10:35:32 no, it's not, it's just a confusing way of putting a very basic thing about jurisprudence 10:35:45 i am VERY annoyed with the limi wristed idiots that have fragmented this community because their collective pussy hurts 10:36:00 cess11, it also happens to be 100% factual 10:36:03 seems you're the one that feels hurt 10:36:15 which is why judges can never agree on anything 10:36:30 annoyed that the community is being fragmented 10:36:51 show me one decision from scotus or whatever where none of the judges agree with one of the others 10:37:01 a community that has existed for decades is now breaking apart because a FEW butt hurt nobodies decided to throw shit into the fan 10:37:28 no, because a millionaire went bananas with his weirdly acquired property 10:37:31 cess11, scotus decisions do NOT need to be unanamous at all 10:37:36 Actually, no - it's because EVERYONE ELSE is letting themselves be sucked into the vortext created by those few people. 10:37:49 KipIngram, they still created it 10:37:58 he didn't go bananas, he was refused access to his property 10:38:03 cess11, have you studied law at all? 10:38:08 jsut asking NOT accusing 10:38:10 yeah but you said they never agree so there could never be a scotus decision in the history of the court 10:38:13 I don't disagree, but everyone fueling it is playing a part. 10:38:20 yeah, i've studied law 10:38:46 k 10:39:13 the supreme court is more often than not in direct contradiction with the supreme law of the land 10:39:38 for example. in order to be allowed to exercise your right to remain silent you must first state that you are exercising that right 10:39:50 that right has already been reserved. that ruling is unconstitutional 10:39:52 i don't think anyone wants to prohibit you from forming your own interpretations of the law but you'd need police and army on your side to have it applied in practice 10:40:30 also. the majority of them believe they have the power and authority to modify the original intent of the framers of the constitution simply by redefining the meaning of the words used to author that document 10:40:49 problem is. the police do not know the law at all 10:40:54 only policy 10:41:10 that's why courts then make the judgement 10:41:13 cess11, what state are you in btw? 10:41:22 sweden 10:41:24 cess11, the LAW says that onlhy officers who know the law can enforce it 10:41:31 aha good place to live! ive been there :) 10:41:44 but its too socialist for me. probably one of the most beautiful places ive ever lived tho 10:41:54 ever been to i mean 10:41:56 the law doesn't say anything since it's ink on paper, interpretations of it might however 10:42:46 if capitalism is too socialist for you i'd probably not want to live in your ideal society 10:43:23 sweden has been thoroughly capitalist and privatising for about for decades, depending on how one thinks about reforms in the seventies 10:43:29 four 10:43:31 understanding law means understanding history. at the time the magnacarta was signed it was merely reaffirming an ANCIENT constitution of which the englishman had been deprived of, not by the force of norman arms but by the art and finesse of norman lawyers the 10:43:40 the LAW is ancient tradition. not what is written down 10:43:45 law can not be repealed. 10:44:06 and the magnacarta is 800 years old.. that is old enough to count as ancient 10:44:08 it IS the law 10:44:09 physics might not but law surely can 10:44:29 you think if we had a statute against murder, the repealing of that statute would make murder lawful? 10:44:36 you miss understand what law is :) 10:44:58 law is settled. it is unalterable. 10:45:06 the constitution is *THE* law of this land 10:45:09 the athenian democracy is older than the magna charta, they had sex with children and considered slavery a foundation of society 10:45:17 and its interpretation is NOT one of the delegated powers 10:45:34 well then, abolish the courts 10:45:57 cess11, i WOULD abolish 100% of the lower pond life courts. they are not courts, they are RICO operations 10:46:48 sure, go ahead 10:47:09 would does not mean could 10:47:11 i think you'll find you need police force and the army as well as the banks on your side before you get anywhere 10:47:41 lol how did we end up here 10:47:42 i.e. what you think the law is doesn't matter, but power and how it interprets society and the law does 10:47:46 cess11, thats a very socialist view. i am not a socialist. i do not depend on my servants for everything - i do not call the cops i defend myself 10:48:03 no, it's a conservative view commonly held by jurists 10:48:04 siraben, rights 10:48:07 protected rights 10:48:34 call for a cop, call for an ambulance, call for a pizza. see who arrives first 10:48:54 the supreme court itself has warned people to ***N*E*V*E*R*** talk to cops 10:49:09 do not answer questions. do not provide documentation. do not perform tests. 10:49:21 relying on cops gets you dead 10:49:23 yeah, because they have more power than you do so it worsens your situation if you do 10:49:37 they do not have more power than i do that is a falsehood 10:49:40 how do they get their power? 10:49:44 delegated to them by the people 10:49:55 if the people did not have that power themselves how could they delegate it? 10:49:57 by having more guns than you do 10:49:59 the majority over the individual? 10:50:11 so if you get uppity you get buried and forgotten 10:50:24 cops cant hit the broad side of a barn at point blank range with a scatter gun in this country lol 10:50:42 well then, abolish the courts 10:50:59 just stroll in, throw everyone out, declare that law has taken over 10:51:06 actually i would not abolish the courts or the police 10:51:16 i would simply reset them back to their delegated authorithy 10:51:43 so you agree that jurisprudence needs institutionalised interpretation of the law and a repressive force to execute the application of those interpretations 10:52:02 read benjamin franklins auto for why they are a HUGE problem today 10:52:03 because that's what cops and judges do, and have done for millenia 10:52:23 cess11, judges should NOT be allowed to interpret the law. only juries 10:52:35 the only true justies is the justice that comes from the people 10:52:44 that's a distinctly socialist view 10:52:50 not from their overlord masters 10:53:01 a relaxation of government is an expansion of rights 10:53:13 more akin to anarchism than anything the founders of the us could imagine 10:53:19 removing the hate speach rule is NOT destructive because if someone says something hateful in here WE can ban him 10:53:25 or YOU can put him on ignore 10:53:34 no not anarchy 10:53:45 sure, and then the property owners can step in and throw you out for doing it 10:53:57 that would be draconian. 10:54:12 yes, it's a libertarian socialist view of jurisprudence 10:54:21 anarchist, syndicalist, that kind of thing 10:54:29 when the entire point of freenode is to be COMMUNITY driven 10:54:33 not overlord master driven 10:54:45 and i do not see lee imposing rules. i see him removing them 10:54:53 tell that to the us constitution and its view of property rights 10:54:58 he is not deciding for this channel what is and is not on topic 10:55:14 mark4: I see Lee arbitrarily changing rules without due process 10:55:32 siraben how were those rules instituted? 10:55:33 there is no due process in property ownership 10:55:36 i saw nothing about them in here 10:55:36 go him 10:56:41 i see lee as being a conservative not a socialist. conservatism is about limited government not absolute government 10:56:49 socialism is absolute government 10:56:54 and actually so is true democracy 10:56:58 this isn't governance, it's business 10:57:02 this country is not a democracy 10:57:13 cess11, the "United States" is a corporation 10:57:25 so again. you lack incite into what the law is 10:57:42 i don't but you seem quite naive and childish in your political views 10:57:52 "socialism is absolute government" -- not all forms, see Peter Kropotkin 10:58:07 and now were down to name calling 10:58:15 that sounds like hate speach :) 10:58:17 lol 10:58:46 jn__, Carl Marx said that communism could never work... because of the human factor 10:58:54 socialism is ALWAYS absolute 10:59:18 it might start out with "all animals are equal" but that gets ammended chip by chip over time 10:59:23 no, karl marx said communism is historically inevitable 10:59:31 great caution is required, i'll admit that 10:59:38 what did groucho marx say about it 11:00:04 that's basically his thing, claiming that history due to material conditions will necessarily end up with communist societies 11:00:38 show me one communist dictatorship that has lasted? 11:00:47 in my opinion it's childish to make claims with confidence when they're unfounded 11:00:50 yes our republic is not that old either 11:00:59 and is already fragmenting but that is due to lack of education in civics 11:01:15 none of those states have reached communism as marx described it 11:01:21 you would know if you had read marx 11:01:36 and you are a fact witness to my having not? 11:02:06 sure, there's a possibility you're just lying to make it seem you haven't 11:03:40 right 11:03:43 ty for your opinion 11:08:30 will you look at the kind of behavior we get from this rule removal https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27257105 11:08:35 wow who woulda thought 11:09:29 siraben, you have to be skeptical of things like that. there are bad faith actors everywhere 11:10:01 siraben, someone comes in here and starts acting hateful we have the @ hammer to remove them 11:10:06 and individuals have /ignore 11:10:18 there is no wrong doing on the part of the freenode owners here 11:10:21 zero 11:10:52 seriously, stop being a nosey busybody and just relax 11:11:53 keeping in mind that *phobia are pejorative terms invented by the left 11:13:33 george weinberg was a leftist? 11:13:43 wow, ok. I am leaving. 11:13:45 --- part: siraben left #forth 11:14:31 do you consider all of his research to be some leftist conspiracy or just his invention of that term? 11:14:50 most of it yes 11:15:12 but i also think most scientific research is also bunk 11:16:44 it must be hard to have those strong feelings getting in the way all the time 11:16:50 cess11, whatever the origins half a century ago, you can't deny its use by the left today 11:17:27 so you just made it up and blamed the left 11:17:40 you seem like a really reliable dude 11:18:24 it must be kind of nice to mainly be afraid of name calling like that 11:18:48 has anybody ever seen cess11 participate in this channel before today? 11:19:00 just curious 11:19:53 yeah i've talked some with kipingram 11:20:53 does not matter, he is still welcome here 11:21:00 ok. no offense meant, but in some other channels i've seen conversations of recent events bring out trolls who had never been participants before 11:21:08 and we can discuss anything and disagree with each other with impunity 11:21:08 cmtptr: yes, he's been participating since 2017 per my logs 11:21:18 that has always been the ONE rule i had when forming this channel 11:21:29 he has a right to be wrong :) 11:21:31 heh 11:21:47 ok. sure, he is welcome, i just wanted to vet intent 11:22:01 also not a problem :) 11:23:28 cess11, sorry i said "invented", i should have said "used". i'll try to be more precise in the future 11:23:42 many people use those terms for many different purposes 11:23:48 thanks 11:24:50 cess11: Our conversation was quite recent, though. 11:25:00 cess11, my point was that generally people who you or someone else might call "homophobic" would not use that word themselves 11:25:01 Definitely after the onset of all t his stuff going on. 11:25:52 i am christian. i consider homosexuality to be a sin. i consider judging a sinner to be a sin. 11:26:16 and all sin is equal sin 11:26:32 to hate a person is to murder a person 11:26:37 so you're a protestant 11:27:03 i am a christian. non denominational tho.... technically im RC lol 11:28:53 rosicrucian? 11:29:40 ah, catholic 11:30:07 ya 11:32:18 why haven't you renounced it and baptised for real in another church if you disagree so fiercely with catholic hamartiology? 11:32:35 i have been baptised as an adult 11:32:39 again. making assumptions 11:33:13 and why do i need to make a "i hereby renounce.... " statement 11:33:47 never said you do, but you presented yourself as catholic even though you obviously disagree with the theology 11:34:12 i said nothing about disagreeing with them that i can see 11:34:15 tho... i do :) 11:34:34 sure you did, all sin being equal 11:34:58 pretty much all churches except perhaps some protestants on the margins disagree with you 11:36:33 the BIBLE says that 11:36:34 not me 11:36:36 typically they take mark 3:29 and the counterpart in luke quite seriously 11:37:11 all sin is like a used rag 11:37:14 what does that mean? 11:37:19 a used sanitary towel 11:37:22 ALL sin 11:38:04 don't recognise that from the bible, could you specify where to look? 11:39:14 if you sin and are not saved you are lost. if you sin but are saved you are forgen. ALL sin equally damns you. all sins are equally forgiven 11:39:32 ALL sin is equal even if the bible does not make that statement exactly 11:39:47 mark and luke disagrees, obviously 11:39:48 it does not matter if your sin is telling a lie or murdering 487592645924 people. 11:40:01 the wages of sin is death 11:40:16 all sin is equally punishable. 11:40:22 all sin is equally forgivable 11:40:43 where is the bible does it say it is more ok to tell a lie than to commit muder 11:40:54 where does it say hating someone is less sinful than murder? 11:41:02 because jesus said they were equal 11:41:24 ok, where can i read what jesus said about it? 11:42:13 We've gotten well away from Forth at this point 11:43:09 KipIngram: interesting points re: UTF-8; I will need to consider this for the future. 11:43:10 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). 11:43:34 that's paul 11:43:49 then my source has an incorrect attribute? 11:43:54 mark 3:29 and luke 12:10 is jesus 11:44:53 ah, right, no, it's john the presbyterian, sorry 11:45:15 it's a bit unclear who wrote that comment on the gospel of john 11:45:18 when I started my current system, had considered using UTF32 since my system is only addressable in 32-bit chunks, but there's not much that supports that 11:45:25 1 john 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. 11:45:56 crc you could still use utf8 with those 32 bit chunks 11:46:07 was just about to say 11:46:12 i use 32 bit codepoints with my utf-8 code 11:46:24 that letter is much later than the gospels 11:46:36 mark4: yes; I just haven't written anything that actually deals with Unicode characters yet 11:47:07 crc you can look at my utf8 code in uCurses, works pretty good but there are still some things i dont understand 11:47:25 like why my konsole is no longer able to display chinese characters but other utf-8 still works 11:47:54 cess11, its still considered canonical 11:48:38 what do you think canonical means? 11:48:39 I may do that. I suspect I'll need to extend my stuff to properly support utf8 at some point. 11:50:46 adopted by the church lol 11:50:49 not much else 11:51:23 but i did use the word "considered" 11:53:30 it means it can be a source of canon law, i.e. divine law as the church interprets it from holy scripture 11:54:17 what is the church? 11:54:21 the PEOPLE within it 11:54:27 not the priests. not the buildings 11:54:33 you're the first person i've met that considers himself a christian and thinks the commentary on the gospels is a better source of canon than what the gospels say that jesus said 11:54:38 seek and ye shall find 11:55:07 where did i quote commentary? 11:55:14 its ALL commentary you mean? 11:55:17 ya. you are right 11:55:19 1 john is a commentary on the gospel of john 11:55:47 usually attributed to john the presbyterian but authorship is quite unclear 11:56:52 so you think only the first 4 books are from god 12:01:39 what do you mean, from god? you think jesus wrote the texts in the new testament? 12:12:23 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 12:33:40 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 12:42:01 I think the initial version of my bridge will be ready to start testing tomorrow. 12:44:48 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:48:24 what does a bridge do? 12:48:35 a bot in both channels and all talk in one is relayed to the other? 12:48:59 technically it could be tehe same both connected to both servers 12:49:32 mark4: initially yes 12:49:55 trying to find a very annoying bug in my ray caster. if i walk forward into a wall it segfaults 12:50:00 if i walk backwards into it it does not 12:53:31 I'm also looking at bridging to non-irc systems (e.g., matrix and gitter), though these will not be quick to implement 12:55:55 dont even know what those are 12:56:14 but i can see potential issues :) 12:56:30 i say someething here thats not against the rules. the bot says it on some other server and there it is against the rules... . . 12:56:48 Matrix is a decentralized chat protocol; the main implementation is *much* heavier than IRC 12:57:37 mark4: if I get that working, I would setup a Matrix server that follow the same rules s the IRC channel 12:58:10 i mean what if we had a bridge between here and liberia :) 12:58:46 and i was thinking more of server rules not channel rules 13:00:54 if the rules & discussion diverge to a point that some things become an issue, I'll work on a way to address them 13:03:03 erm you would have to implement a cross server filter lol i think thats a bit much but...dont worry about it anyway lol 13:03:19 im just thinking out loud :) 13:03:51 It's something for me to worry about if the need arises 13:04:13 I don't think it'll be a problem 13:09:20 --- join: Teckla joined #forth 13:15:12 complexity is a hassle with matrix but when it's up and running it's quite nice 13:15:50 i've recently moved away from signal to self-hosted matrix on family phones 13:19:52 Are there any good non-web based clients? 14:18:22 For IRC? 14:18:35 I run weechat-curses. 14:21:52 I've been quite happy with it. I run it on an always on least host account, in a screen session. Then use mosh from my notebook to connect to that. 14:22:14 It behaves in every respect like a local console session - mosh takes care of keeping the connection integrity. 14:24:53 --- join: f-a joined #forth 14:39:19 --- quit: clog (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:39:19 --- log: stopped forth/21.05.23 14:39:30 --- log: started forth/21.05.23 14:39:30 --- join: clog joined #forth 14:39:30 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | do drop >in | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN backup at http://forthworks.com/forth/irc-logs/ | If you have two (or more) stacks and speak RPN then you're welcome here! | https://github.com/mark4th' 14:39:30 --- topic: set by mark4!~mark4@cpe-75-191-74-68.triad.res.rr.com on [Sun Feb 28 11:55:01 2021] 14:39:30 --- names: list (clog f-a Teckla Kumool Zarutian_HTC proteus-guy _whitelogger sts-q boru jevinskie[m] jimt[m] crest @crc jn__ ovf rann +mark4 wineroots Vedran xek Keshl_ cantstanya rpcope guan APic Gromboli djinni X-Scale rixard MrMobius Lord_Nightmare cmtptr pareidolia lonjil +proteusguy remexre nihilazo cp- jyf1 koisoke tabemann cess11 swineflu klys mstevens fiddlerwoaroof a3f +KipIngram krjt _0x1d3 dzho mjl rprimus WilhelmV1nWeiner ornxka tolja dsmcfarl veltas bluekelp) 14:56:14 For matrix :) 14:56:23 IRC I have many options on 14:58:07 Ah, ok. :-) 15:36:21 --- quit: f-a (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:40:40 --- join: f-a joined #forth 16:46:59 --- quit: Kumool (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 16:50:06 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 17:19:09 --- quit: Kumool (Quit: EXIT) 17:19:36 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 17:23:05 --- join: cheater joined #forth 17:46:33 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 17:58:34 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 18:04:16 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 18:26:17 mark4: the policy channel is so full of vitriol, wow 18:27:17 ya dont say lol 18:28:13 fuck 18:28:25 tbh i'm glad that's all contained there 18:28:53 i think the staff gave up on the policy discussion and are luring and listening 18:29:11 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:29:14 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:29:16 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:29:23 luring? 18:29:34 Lurking? 18:29:37 ah 18:29:41 yeah you can't really have a real discussion in there 18:30:15 lurking yea i cant type lol 18:30:19 fyi :P 18:39:51 there was some limited rational thoughts expressed in there. not much tho 18:41:23 --- quit: Kumool (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 19:06:10 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 19:13:52 yeah sadly not a lot of that 19:14:30 my only regret here is that #gentoo is moving to liberia instead of some other network 19:14:38 --- quit: sts-q (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 19:15:10 if bill gates, george soros and jeff beezlebub all offered me their entire personal fortumes i would not set foot on that heteful network 19:15:37 i don't know why jess isn't banned 19:15:50 because of patience maybe? 19:16:50 i noticed a number of spite filled haters still opers in there when i thought they should be klined 19:16:54 she's one of the former staff and is obviously only there to stir up shit and not productively contribute 19:17:11 jess was +b a few times earlier 19:17:23 i think he means perma banned 19:17:24 oh i missed that part 19:17:25 klined 19:17:34 she was banned numerous times for short periods 19:17:54 sometimes for no apparant reason 19:18:06 who knows what she was saying to whome in PM 19:19:12 Not my channel to worry about :) 19:19:17 oh well. i feel like i've said everything i have to say to anyone who will listen. tomorrow i'm moving past this clown show 19:19:54 yup 19:20:01 not my network to worry about 19:20:24 well you kind of cant.. it has to move past us lol 19:20:34 which it will 19:21:04 there are those who will leave. there are those who will stay and there are those who will stay just to disrupt 19:23:01 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 19:23:05 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP7bsvXhCjw 19:23:32 i wonder if i should post that in there lol 19:26:44 --- join: sts-q joined #forth 19:37:57 --- quit: Kumool (Quit: EXIT) 19:38:26 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 19:39:53 lol 19:41:02 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 19:57:26 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 20:00:53 mark4: what makes libera hate filled? 20:01:07 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 20:01:33 read their resignation latters 20:01:44 i saw some 20:01:56 what's your take? 20:01:58 read the chat they are making here, thea ccusations in the policy channel going on right now 20:02:14 Discussion in the policy channel has settled down and feels more reasonable now 20:02:22 my take is is that they do not like having their utopian dicatorship stripped fron them 20:02:35 to be expected 20:02:46 thats what will happen to the servers in general over time 20:05:48 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:05:55 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 20:08:31 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 20:09:12 --- join: Bogen85 joined #forth 20:40:48 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 20:43:45 it's so weird 20:43:47 all of it 21:50:34 --- quit: djinni (Quit: Leaving) 21:50:41 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 22:10:08 --- join: djinni joined #forth 22:49:36 crc i just got a private message from rasengan thanking me for my eamil earlier and that all policies were under review. i told him not to worry too much about my petition till things have been resolved here.... 22:49:45 he apprecites the support and the patience 22:50:05 Sounds good 22:50:47 ya 22:51:04 he has much bigger fish to fry 22:51:12 hopefully not literally :) 22:51:52 I'm just hoping things settle down soon 22:52:12 IRC isn't supposed to be stressful :) 22:53:06 --- join: Joanna joined #forth 22:56:11 heh 23:00:01 --- part: Joanna left #forth 23:00:10 crc, agreed :D 23:04:03 things will settle down eventually 23:04:37 you should hang in here dwight, we dont ONLY talk forth :) 23:05:54 yep :D 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/21.05.23