00:00:00 --- log: started forth/21.05.20 00:34:53 --- quit: dnm (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 00:37:53 --- join: dnm joined #forth 00:55:31 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:07:57 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 01:43:14 --- join: f-a joined #forth 02:12:08 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:25:07 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 03:43:57 --- join: proteanthread joined #forth 03:43:57 --- join: rtdos joined #forth 03:55:35 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 03:55:49 --- join: f-a joined #forth 03:56:06 --- quit: f-a (Client Quit) 04:00:24 --- join: f-a joined #forth 04:07:10 --- join: andrei-n joined #forth 04:13:39 --- quit: andrei-n (Quit: Leaving) 04:18:20 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 04:18:33 --- join: f-a joined #forth 04:39:08 --- join: kiedtl joined #forth 04:39:18 --- part: kiedtl left #forth 04:41:50 --- join: dys joined #forth 04:46:33 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC1 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 05:27:25 --- quit: Kumool (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 05:34:34 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 05:42:25 --- quit: f-a (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:47:05 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 05:47:19 --- join: f-a joined #forth 05:53:06 official statement now on freenode.net. long story short, it's not the entire staff and it's not a hostile takeover by satan. who would have guessed?? 05:53:38 as always, there's at least two sides 05:54:45 https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss this? 05:55:51 apply restraint and skepticism until this weekend :P 06:00:26 --- quit: cantstanya (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 06:03:10 --- join: cantstanya joined #forth 06:14:41 spoken like a leftist. your idea of skepticism is to presume guilt 06:15:54 my idea of skepticism is «wait for the quarrel on the weekend» 06:16:07 and I have never once in my life voted a progressive party 06:16:28 (well, at the European Parliament elections, because apparently they were they only ones understanding what the Copyright directive was) 06:17:10 again, I feel we both are on the «wait and see» side, let’s not demean each other 06:19:23 fair enough. i may have perceived you as siding with siraben at some point 06:19:57 he’s a reasonable person 06:20:07 I am currently chatting with #haskell ops to see their line of reasoning 06:20:23 (all haskell hierarchy(sp) has moved) 06:27:24 Apparently you need to be invited to join irc.libera.chat/forth? 06:28:31 there is ##forth 06:28:36 just found it. 06:28:46 they have a policy where # is only for projects 06:28:51 But I don't see any need to move from here as of yet. Anything I'm missing? 06:29:45 there has been some controversy around some governance change on freenode. https://lwn.net/Articles/856543/ this talks about it and this is freenode’s owner reaction https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss 06:30:04 I suspect once everything is overt there will be more infos to judge and make a decision 06:30:55 a plethora of projects moved, which makes me suspect they know something that we do not (NDA?) but again, those are only suspects and I am sure pretty soon infos will drip 06:33:53 f-a, thanks. From reading both of those I see nothing that gives me any reason to leave freenode. I'll stay put until one appears. 06:35:07 yeah I can say I am uneasy with «new staff» and ownership shenanigans, but I need a clearer picture 06:55:13 dont let it bother you 06:55:28 unless they come in here and start dictating this is a non event 08:00:55 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 08:06:06 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 08:13:58 I agree. 08:14:06 Hopefully we'll just not know the difference. 08:15:11 In the meantime it seems just as easy to me to have two windows open as one. 08:16:11 one of the pleasures of IRC 08:16:20 adding/removing servers is (mostly) painless 08:16:51 IRC is one of the few things around that's mostly the same as it's always been. A welcome change from the normal 21st century rip-snorting change on all fronts. 08:17:16 Just looking at the window is comforting to me. 08:18:13 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 08:19:22 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 08:34:37 Hey - my new computer is out for delivery. Coming a day early! 08:34:40 Fun fun. 08:35:09 --- join: andrei-n joined #forth 08:35:15 which one KipIngram I forgot 08:38:56 It's a Lenovo X1 Carbon. 08:39:06 16 GB ram, 512 GB SSD. 08:39:20 14", but they claim it's in a 13" package (thin bezel). 08:39:21 16gb , super 08:39:24 now you can run slack 08:39:31 Hahahahahaha... 08:39:34 No doubt. 08:39:37 (nice machine) 08:39:52 I hope so. My biggest concern is battery life - I'll be carefully assessing that. 08:40:20 I ordered it with Linux pre-installed; usually in the past I buy Windows and nuke it myself, and it always takes a while to get the Linux battery performance dialed in. 08:40:33 I'm hoping by letting them configure it that gets handled out of the box. 08:40:43 eh, always a thorny issue 08:40:45 First time I've ever bought one pre-loaded with Linux. 08:40:56 hopefully we will be both happy w/ our purchases 08:41:27 Yep. :-) 08:44:41 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 08:52:58 --- quit: dys (Remote host closed the connection) 08:54:47 --- join: dys joined #forth 08:55:11 i bought a dell xps 13 pre-loaded with ubuntu about 5 or 6 years ago, that was my first time buying anything with linux pre-installed 08:55:34 blew it away and put my own install on it, anyway, but i appreciated having the official support 09:08:28 --- quit: dys (Quit: hrm.) 09:24:00 --- join: AlyssaXY joined #forth 09:24:04 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 09:26:35 I just joined this channel from #gentoo-chat. 09:27:15 why 09:27:41 Because I'm interested in programming but I barely know how. 09:27:43 welcome 09:27:46 Thanks 09:27:51 welcome 09:27:53 why forth tho? 09:28:52 AlyssaXY, welcome to the mad house :) 09:28:58 do you code forth? 09:29:20 Nah 09:29:32 Programming is all bullshit to me because I don't know any. 09:29:41 :-) 09:29:46 AlyssaXY, forth was invented by chuck moore in the early 80s? and has a small following of dedicated nutcases 09:29:55 Well, Forth is a nice way to learn, but it's not really "mainstream," unfortunately. 09:30:00 forth is way older than the 80s 09:30:05 it is also used extensively at nasa and the fedex tracking system is coded in forth 09:30:25 More like the early 70's, and even that may be just "fully formed" 09:30:38 i'm pretty sure the first record of a forth program dates somewhere around 13,000 B.C. 09:30:47 AlyssaXY: Forth puts emphasis on simplicity. 09:30:59 and until general dynamics bought out vertex-rsi, 100% of the satellite tracking and signal mux/demux for direct tv was coded in forth 09:31:00 You feel "very close to the machine" when you write Forth. 09:31:16 It's excellent for embedded work. 09:31:18 KipIngram, ok. 09:31:26 asm is low leve, ADA is high level, Forth on the other hand covers the ENTIRE spectrum 09:31:38 it can be as low level as you make it or as high level as you make it 09:31:42 Yes. 09:31:58 "simplicity" in this context means "the language is simple in how it works," but not necessarily "simple" in the sense that it does everything for you out of the box 09:32:56 it does change the way you think about problems, though, and rewards you for simplifying your solution, which in general is a good thing 09:33:21 I would like to program something in x86 ASM. 09:33:31 --- part: f-a left #forth 09:33:32 I know quite a lot of 16-bit for a philosopher. 09:33:45 There's an assembler called nasm that's well-documented. 09:33:59 if he's running gentoo he surely already has gas installed 09:34:09 Ah, good point. 09:34:17 Nah I don't have the skills for Gentoo. 09:34:20 Slackware is my speed. 09:34:31 you still probably already have gas installed 09:34:51 think it's a dependency of gcc 09:34:59 yeah 09:35:03 AlyssaXY, actually i think gentoo is way easier than slackware :) 09:35:19 but i dont shoot down anyones chose of distro even if they are wrong :) 09:35:55 :-) 09:36:11 AlyssaXY, unpoular opinion but i dont think forth is a good place to start if you want to learn programming. it lacks a lot of modern conveniences and some of those are useful and make programming easier/more effective 09:36:18 * MrMobius prepares to have rocks hurled at him 09:36:40 MrMobius, I just joined ##c 09:36:48 mark4, Gentoo is difficult as fuck. 09:36:56 I think the main reason you might not want to start with it is just that as I said, it's far from the mainstream. 09:36:56 I would say forth is a better starter lang than C tbh 09:37:03 I don't have the patience to wait an entire day for it to even install. 09:37:03 there's a lot of batshit insanity in C 09:37:08 Seems like C or Python would be good choices for "first learning." 09:37:10 -- a gentoo user :) 09:37:17 I learned a bit of C in '05 09:37:28 remexre: I don't disagree with that. 09:37:28 Python is a great choice for first learning. also just my opnion but I would much prefer C to forth as a first language 09:37:39 I learned x86 disassembler around the same time as I learned a bit of C. I'm a novice programmer. 09:37:53 I think forth is great to learn first if you want to program forth 09:37:56 Learning Forth, you will... know Forth. C or Python are more "like common languages." 09:38:02 but if you want your knowledge to transfer to other languages, you need to learn something else 09:38:03 yeah 09:38:10 AlyssaXY, i was a debian user for about 2 years before i switched to gentoo. i learned more about using and administring linux following the gentoo handbook on my first install than i learned in the 2 years previous 09:38:22 I taught my older kids programming using Python, then moved them into C, Forth, and now working on assembly 09:38:25 but we get used to things and we settle on them 09:38:35 settling on slackware is good :) 09:38:49 crc how old are they? 09:38:51 crc: Good man. 09:38:55 yeah, if you care about doing "mainstream" work, I'd recommend Python; if you care about the sorta mathy-philosophy cool stuff, I'd try Scheme; if you want something that's simple and close to the machine, Forth 09:39:10 ^^ 09:39:13 That. 09:39:24 yes, that's a good summary 09:39:38 mark4: currently 16 & 17; we started about two years ago 09:40:09 --- nick: AlyssaXY -> Alyssa118 09:40:16 --- nick: Alyssa118 -> AlyssaXY 09:40:49 my third is just getting started; he's 10 iirc 09:40:49 I just joined #python 09:41:58 I don't know which is the best high level language to start with. 09:42:09 I can already do a lot with x86 ASM in DOS. 09:42:14 I wrote a graphics viewer one time. 09:42:15 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 09:42:58 Well, if you can fly x86 assembly then you already understand a lot of things. 09:43:09 Python or Forth should be an easy learn. 09:44:02 i think python is horrendously difficult compared to forth 09:44:06 Possibly, I'm not sure what IQ I have left. It was last 118. 09:44:17 I used to be 200 or some shit apparently. 09:44:29 I've been neurodegenerating, I'm 33. 09:44:48 --- quit: Kumool (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:44:57 I learned Perl and PHP at my first job. 09:45:01 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 09:45:04 But that was when I was 18. 09:46:08 forth has a slight hump to begin with. its like learning the guitar, you start placing your fingers deliberately, then strumming, the moving your fingers deliberately, then strumming... you do this for a week or two and them BOOM your in a band :P~ 09:46:15 forth is like taht 09:46:18 when you are learning it 09:46:46 I think I jumped that bump programming my HP 41 calculator in college. 09:46:56 When I turned to Forth I was already very "stack happy." 09:47:07 The HP was literally my "first programming." 09:50:19 Learning the guitar is difficult for me. 09:50:28 I wanna know a language that's more like piano. 09:51:16 piano is far less intuitive than guitar 09:51:27 to change key on a piano you have to know a totally new pattern 09:51:29 I'm a sensing personality. 09:51:36 on a guitar you use the same pattern, just shift its position 09:52:01 It's a nightmare for me. I can only play single-chord songs. 09:52:09 The piano is like C for me. 09:52:21 ASM is like the accordion or something complicated like that with a keyboard. 09:52:39 --- quit: mtsd (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 09:53:36 AlyssaXY, in my experience, it is impossible to judge a language based on the opinions of others. everyone has different interpretations of words like "simple" or "intuitive" or "portable", and it's very difficult to express exactly what you're looking for in a programming language uness you can boil it down to a specific use-case. i think you'll just have to try it and see if it jibes with you 09:54:13 I'm not sure I have the patience to learn a complicated language if what I want is to program a simple IRC server. 09:55:54 you don't have to learn the whole thing, just start with hello world and a day or two of picking up the basics and see if it tickles your fancy 09:56:25 if you want to do anything on linux, the path of least resistance will be c by far 09:56:31 or python 09:56:47 Cool, that's fair advice. 09:56:53 but python will teach you bad habits imo 09:57:14 I was already thinking probably in C first. 09:59:20 --- quit: AlyssaXY (Quit: Leaving) 10:00:43 --- join: AlyssaXY joined #forth 10:05:50 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 10:08:33 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 10:09:06 cmtptr: I think I agree with that - Python appeals to me because it's just so conveneint to hack out little fast tools. But that may be preciseliy because it tries to make everything easy. 10:09:44 On the other hand, I probably have tons of bad C habits too. :-| 10:09:52 * KipIngram is not a software professional. 10:10:07 i also don't like python's c++-esque idea of oop 10:10:18 I just tend not to use that. 10:10:30 I use Python in a very "procedural" way. 10:10:47 but you kind of have to to use some of the libs 10:11:22 Well, true. 10:11:59 I guess my point, though, is that I don't really 'know' OOP well enough to know whether something is good, bad, or indifferent. 10:12:32 I've been trying to get some familiarity here lately with functional programming; maybe I'll need to do a similar dip into OOP sometime later. 10:13:03 The functional mindset is darn hard for me to get into - as a hardware guy most of the software I've ever written has been all about what it DOES to the hardware. I.e., all about side effects. 10:13:34 My recent dip into Lisp has been fun, though. 10:13:57 i started with oop with java in high school, so it's definitely shaped the way that i write software. even today i sometimes find myself writing c in a very oop-way. but imo oop is a gradient... there's "good" oop and there's "bad" oop and everything in between 10:14:12 KipIngram: oop with it class based is not worth studying. Object based systems that use composition are much better. 10:14:17 Makes sense. 10:14:45 Zarutian_HTC: Ok; I'll keep that in mind. 10:16:36 --- quit: AlyssaXY (Quit: Leaving) 10:25:40 --- join: AlyssaXY joined #forth 10:31:02 --- join: pointfree joined #forth 10:32:24 any plans on also having a forth channel on libera.chat or oftc? 10:32:54 there's one on libera as ##forth 10:33:24 KipIngram: I have somewhere a small object system written in a variant of eforth and I had described it here so the public logs might have it 10:37:04 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 10:50:07 yeah, the OO model I like is "abstraction is thru interfaces, interfaces have inheritance, objects don't, easy to 'proxy'/'delegate' methods" 11:04:13 --- quit: mtsd (Remote host closed the connection) 11:04:36 Ah - computer delivered. Plugged it in to charge. Fun evening on the way! 11:06:33 remexre: the obect system I described didnt even have interfaces 11:08:31 basically, each object is basically: header, xt, references part, data part 11:08:54 ah, mine does dynamic objects, so it sticks an extra pointer on the top of each object 11:09:00 and has only interfaces, no classes 11:11:03 xt gets @executed with ( ... argx arg0 argn obj-ptr verb ) as the datastack when the object pointed at by obj-ptr gets invokef 11:11:13 invoked* 11:11:15 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 11:13:12 and such invokee words are expected to leave ( ... resultx result0 resultn ) on the datastack 11:17:16 the gc happens only at end of event loop turn so I do not have to scan the datastack or such 11:18:19 --- quit: joe9 (Quit: joe9) 11:18:31 this uses a copying compacting garbage collector inside a circular object memory 11:19:26 gets around the 'only half of object memory usable' issue 11:22:13 --- join: lispmacs[work] joined #forth 11:25:33 --- quit: lispmacs[work] (Remote host closed the connection) 11:34:20 --- join: Kumool joined #forth 11:47:24 --- part: dnm left #forth 12:07:08 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:15:20 --- quit: andrei-n (Quit: Leaving) 12:22:42 --- join: mark4 joined #forth 12:33:57 --- quit: AlyssaXY (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 12:41:37 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 12:45:29 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 13:08:25 --- join: AlyssaXY joined #forth 13:19:10 --- quit: pointfree (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 13:34:10 --- quit: Kumool (Quit: EXIT) 13:43:37 --- join: dys joined #forth 13:52:38 --- join: Keshl_ joined #forth 13:53:27 --- quit: Keshl (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:29:52 --- quit: DKordic (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 15:56:14 --- quit: proteanthread (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 15:56:14 --- quit: rtdos (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 15:59:32 --- join: proteanthread joined #forth 15:59:32 --- join: rtdos joined #forth 16:10:36 --- quit: wineroots (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:23:57 --- part: rtdos left #forth 16:23:58 --- part: proteanthread left #forth 17:54:39 mark4: you should see the isomorphic keyboard layouts for piano 17:55:00 but indeed, you have to practice and get familiar with all 12 keys and they have different finger patterns 17:55:24 KipIngram: what computer did you buy? 17:56:58 yet another channel I participate in regularly has moved to libera 17:59:16 It's a Lenovo ThinkPad Carbon X1 Gen 8. 17:59:33 16 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD. 18:00:08 --- quit: AlyssaXY (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 18:07:02 Seems to be drawing about 515 mA right now. 18:08:26 If the capacity listed over there is right, that's 22 hours of time. 18:09:05 I need to write my current monitoring utility - I keep a little tiny window in the bottom left of my console screen that reports that stuff to me. 18:09:12 Updates every 30 seconds. 18:12:06 the key command is 18:12:14 upower -i /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT0 18:12:31 I catch that in a bash variable and then pick apart and do a little arithmetic. 18:31:47 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:31:50 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:31:52 --- nick: boru` -> boru 19:02:43 --- join: AlyssaXY joined #forth 19:19:03 --- quit: sts-q (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:24:59 --- join: sts-q joined #forth 20:04:08 --- join: Rakko joined #forth 20:18:54 --- quit: Rakko (Quit: Leaving) 21:37:20 --- part: lispmacs left #forth 21:46:05 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 21:49:02 --- join: lispmacs joined #forth 22:11:25 f-a_: yeah, a lot of programming language channels have moved 22:33:07 --- part: lispmacs left #forth 23:03:05 --- quit: AlyssaXY (Remote host closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/21.05.20