00:00:00 --- log: started forth/21.03.12 00:41:32 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 00:53:57 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 00:56:43 --- quit: jedb__ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 00:56:51 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth 00:59:43 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 01:06:59 --- nick: xek_ -> xek 01:37:15 --- join: andrei-n joined #forth 02:08:24 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 02:31:24 --- quit: Keshl (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 04:22:30 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 04:30:37 --- join: mirrorbird joined #forth 04:30:38 lispmacs: My unrelated suggestion: build a higher level string vocabulary, because the built-in words alone will be difficult to work with. 04:31:13 That being said, it sounds like a good exercise, I might try that too. 04:42:47 --- quit: mirrorbird (Quit: Leaving) 04:45:49 --- join: tech_exorcist joined #forth 04:49:37 --- quit: tech_exorcist (Max SendQ exceeded) 05:23:44 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 05:28:13 --- join: mirrorbird joined #forth 05:32:49 --- join: tech_exorcist joined #forth 05:37:29 --- quit: andrei-n (Quit: Leaving) 05:58:24 --- join: elioat joined #forth 06:43:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +v mark4 07:30:55 --- join: f-a joined #forth 07:33:51 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 08:02:55 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:15:29 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 08:37:12 --- quit: inode (Quit: ) 08:41:48 --- join: inode joined #forth 08:52:31 --- quit: elioat (Quit: elioat) 08:53:52 --- join: elioat joined #forth 09:06:04 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 09:20:34 --- quit: spoofer (Quit: Lost terminal) 09:22:21 --- quit: elioat (Quit: elioat) 09:28:02 --- join: f-a joined #forth 09:29:35 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 09:29:39 --- quit: tech_exorcist (Quit: tech_exorcist) 09:30:13 --- join: tech_exorcist joined #forth 09:34:01 --- quit: tech_exorcist (Max SendQ exceeded) 09:34:22 --- join: tech_exorcist joined #forth 09:34:31 --- join: elioat joined #forth 09:46:25 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 09:49:40 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 10:07:25 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 10:16:31 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 10:17:05 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:17:53 --- join: f-a joined #forth 10:33:16 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 10:33:17 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Remote host closed the connection) 10:43:31 --- quit: tech_exorcist (Remote host closed the connection) 10:44:19 --- join: tech_exorcist joined #forth 10:46:39 --- quit: mirrorbird (Quit: Leaving) 11:08:23 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 11:09:27 --- join: f-a joined #forth 11:11:19 hi, is there any forth for AVR that can interface with existing arduino stuff? I only know enforth which is (apparently) very unfinished, amforth which is a complete replacement for anything arduino, and arduino-FVM which seems weird 11:15:27 nihilazo: i would not try to use arduino compiled thigns in forth 11:15:37 use amforth and implement those things in forth 11:15:54 but that would require reimplementing a lot of things 11:16:00 so instad of having [f][ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc] where F is the forth based stuff and C is the c based stuff 11:16:06 yup and in forth that is trivial 11:16:10 unless amforth has USB and i2c and such 11:16:11 not quick but trivial 11:16:23 yeah I don't want to have to reimplement tons of stuff 11:17:16 actually not c in this case but c++ which in all cases is ABSOLUTELY mutually exclusing with embedded 11:17:24 no exceptions 11:18:04 idk how to implement USB HID from scratch! lol 11:23:56 i guess you have to determine whether it's going to be easier to implement HID or FFI (plus any linkage trickery required) then 11:24:10 i changed the x64 license to mit, im currently going through every change i have in my local x4 clone and either back tracking them or adding them for commit 11:24:33 there are a lot of files listed in git status that are marked as modified that have no differences shown by git diff (white space bs?) 11:24:44 so im reverting those. its a horrendous mess right now 11:24:53 lots of changes i made over 2 years ago and no idea wtf i was doing lol 11:25:10 some of them are related to the TUI in there that im going to be rewriting anyway so meh 11:25:45 but i have to keep doing git diff foo/bar/bam/fud.f followed by git checkout foo/bar/bam.f over and over and over and over.. . . . ... 11:25:56 nihilazo: I don't know of an option other than arduino-fvm. I abandoned it for flashforth 11:26:27 --- join: Rakko joined #forth 11:26:41 --- quit: astrid (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 11:26:45 * nihilazo wants to not be working with arduino and instead with a better platform, but is working with existing arduino-based hardware (atmega32u4) 11:28:28 --- join: astrid joined #forth 11:28:44 i like the 32u4 11:29:06 i put my (now abandoned work) 32u4 forth kernel in the boot sector 11:29:16 just keep in mind that Arduino is a board platform, whereas the chips are Atmel AVR 11:29:19 really for a 32u4 you need to have a tethered forth 11:29:23 well, the 32u4 is fine 11:29:26 but the arduino pro micro is terrible 11:29:51 it's the main board that custom keyboard people use and they're so bad, the USB connectors break all the time, the bootloader is half broken 11:33:10 nihilazo: instead of trying to call the C functions that implement HID, considered using one of those implementations as a reference to translate the logic (minus calling convention stuff) to AVR assembly and then implementing CODE words instead? 11:36:39 AVR assembly also scares me 11:36:41 lol 11:36:44 what i would have done :) 11:36:50 avr assembly is actually really really easy 11:37:05 where is AVR relative to 6502 11:37:15 that's the only assembly I've ever remotely been able to grok and even then I'm not great 11:37:19 i think it's closer to 8051 isn't it? 11:37:22 much simpler 11:37:25 to code i mean 11:37:41 avr asm is easier than both imho 11:38:09 and i used to most 6502 opcodes by heart and i hve written my own avr and 8051 assemblers 11:38:53 implementing USB in AVR asm would certainly be...interesting 11:40:49 as in, probably wayy too much learning for me 11:41:04 tbh I should probably stick to using whatever language has the most exising libraries because I'm dumb 11:43:46 but I like the idea of using forth 11:46:49 nihilazo: no actually, its not that difficult 11:47:26 seems like the popular choice is, https://github.com/obdev/v-usb with the meat of the driver @ https://github.com/obdev/v-usb/blob/master/usbdrv/usbdrvasm.S 11:47:34 you underestimate how dumb I am lol mark4 11:47:59 LUFA also seems like a popular option for USB on AVRs 11:48:01 https://github.com/abcminiuser/lufa/ 11:48:09 but idk how any of this works with forth 11:48:31 you over estimate how smart i am lol 11:49:41 I doubt it 11:49:53 I mean, you're smarter than me for sure at least in terms of technical knowledge 11:50:07 knowledge does not imply intelligence 11:50:08 smart and dumb are useless words really, because people are good at different things 11:50:32 but in terms of technical ability and knowledge, I am not knowledgable nor really skilled, I hack out bad software and it mostly kinda works 11:50:43 if it works, it is good software 11:50:56 marginally good 11:51:02 that can become asymptotically good 11:53:36 I guess? idk 11:53:42 I doubt a USB stack I wrote would ever work though 11:54:20 thats why we debug code :) 11:54:55 true 11:55:09 would be a larger project than I was hoping for this to be if I had to do more stuff myself. But it would be interesting 12:00:34 maybe I should do it for the sake of all the things I'd learn 12:00:44 and then I can always fall back on the existing firmware if mine sucks 12:02:58 we do these things, not because they are easy 12:05:50 for me it's "not because they are easy, but because on a whim once i decided to do it and now I'm trapped" lol 12:07:28 well... decide again and trap yourself inside forth :) 12:08:31 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 12:09:23 it's not a bad place to be tbh 12:09:28 maybe USB is a bad place to be, dunno 12:10:50 1) download the USB spec. 12:11:04 2) spend a lot of tyine crying over "whiskey tango foxtrot!" 12:11:34 the usb standard is NOT easy to implement. its very difficult for coders but it was not supposed to be easy for anyone except users 12:11:39 imho that was a design flaw 12:11:43 3) learn a bunch but then eventually abandon it and go back to using prebuilt firmwares 12:11:55 there is no real need for USB which is just a freeking serial interface to be THAT freeking complex 12:11:59 custom keyboard folks smh, always using prebuilt firmwares 12:12:23 they customise the hardware as much as they want but then literally only ever use one, bad, firmware 12:12:33 (except in rare cases) 12:12:55 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 12:14:14 --- join: f-a joined #forth 12:19:32 nihilazo: what's your end goal for a project like that? keyboard firmware for personal use? 12:21:52 yeah 12:22:37 keyboard firmware for personal use, that can maybe do some crap that is niche as hell for a normal keyboard firmware (like "hardware" (as in, in the keyboard not the PC) support for a one-handed chording layout) 12:24:24 if USB is intimidating and you don't really care much about which bus you send your input over, then you could add a bit of extra hardware to lessen the software burden - ie. use UART, adjust I/O levels for RS-232 (or 5V TTL with connection to a serial-to-USB adapter) to host 12:24:59 well I'm building this for an existing keyboard 12:25:05 is the thing 12:25:20 and I don't really have much ability to make hardware modifications 12:25:25 (I built it, but with PCBs etc from a kit) 12:29:43 it's an AVR based keyboard though? 12:31:54 --- quit: elioat (Quit: elioat) 12:32:29 yeah, it's literally got arduino pro micros o it 12:32:43 https://github.com/foostan/crkbd one of these 12:32:51 atmega32u4 12:33:22 --- quit: Rakko (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 12:33:40 --- join: elioat joined #forth 12:34:06 --- join: Rakko joined #forth 12:34:14 nice form 12:34:51 it's a really nice keyboard, other than running qmk which is a firmware I'm not a fan of 12:40:17 I mean, qmk works but it's a pain to work with 12:47:11 --- quit: elioat (Quit: elioat) 12:51:34 --- quit: jess (Remote host closed the connection) 12:52:02 --- join: j joined #forth 12:55:38 --- quit: j (Quit: K-Lined) 13:07:00 --- quit: cmtptr (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:07:49 --- join: cmtptr joined #forth 13:17:52 --- quit: Rakko (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 14:02:09 --- quit: f-a (Remote host closed the connection) 14:04:56 --- join: f-a joined #forth 14:16:46 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 14:19:53 --- quit: tech_exorcist (Quit: tech_exorcist) 14:58:47 --- join: j joined #forth 15:03:35 --- nick: j -> jess 15:45:49 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 15:46:30 --- join: spoofer joined #forth 15:49:50 --- quit: jedb__ (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 16:13:33 --- quit: f-a (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:17:43 --- join: f-a joined #forth 16:27:52 --- quit: lispmacs (Remote host closed the connection) 16:40:31 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:40:50 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 17:36:28 is there somewhere an nacl/libsodium pure forth implenentation that does not call out to c code? 17:38:55 I could hand translate the wasm version I suppose 17:42:51 why? well I want to run it ontop of my fcpu-32 or -16 fantasy comp (that kind of vm) which I might implement both in software emulation and through ben eather style breadboard comp 17:45:30 x4 does not use any c code 17:45:38 other than using linux system calls 17:45:48 it treats linux as its BIOS 17:48:06 and you got nacl/libsodium impl? 17:53:31 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 17:59:46 * Zarutian_HTC finds https://github.com/jfindlay/pure_pynacl/blob/master/pure_pynacl/tweetnacl.py and supposes he cauld translate that 18:49:37 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:49:40 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:49:43 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:54:56 --- join: really2 joined #forth 18:58:25 --- join: lispmacs joined #forth 19:32:07 --- quit: sts-q (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:44:20 --- join: sts-q joined #forth 19:45:03 no idea what those are lol 20:00:09 --- join: Rakko joined #forth 20:05:10 --- quit: Rakko (Quit: Leaving) 20:53:29 --- quit: really2 (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 20:54:23 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 21:17:34 I'm aware of two nacl projects; one is for running native code in a sandbox, the other is a crypto thing 21:19:42 Given the crypto references in the linked python file, I'd assume this is the crypto one 21:32:02 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 22:13:50 --- join: f-a joined #forth 22:29:47 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:30:05 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 22:32:16 earlier I had said that there was no minimalist emacs clone that had a built-in lisp engine. Actually, somebody managed to get a Scheme engine in Zile: 22:32:22 https://github.com/spk121/zile 22:38:54 on my system (binaries not stripped or size optimized) the executable is 359Kb. Though, there is a few MBs of link dependencies, most significantly libguile providing the Scheme engine 22:42:44 it might be interesting if somebody did the same project withh tinyscheme 22:57:38 --- quit: wineroots (Remote host closed the connection) 23:00:58 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 23:03:27 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 23:42:22 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 23:58:51 lispmacs: oh great 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/21.03.12