00:00:00 --- log: started forth/21.02.17 00:24:48 --- quit: Vedran (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 00:25:59 --- join: Vedran joined #forth 00:32:00 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 00:34:56 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 00:49:30 --- join: xek joined #forth 00:51:29 --- join: f-a joined #forth 01:07:06 --- join: jedb__ joined #forth 01:08:37 --- quit: iyzsong (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 01:08:40 --- join: iyzsong- joined #forth 01:09:06 --- nick: iyzsong- -> iyzsong 01:09:36 --- quit: jedb_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:17:48 --- join: inode joined #forth 01:28:15 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 01:30:00 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 01:32:18 --- quit: jedb__ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:59:20 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 03:22:32 what is the relationship between forth inc and the forth language? 03:22:52 do forth inc "own" forth the language or are they just a company that maintains a forth system? 03:23:31 latest (from my POV) 03:31:08 they don't control any of the standards (and there are more than enough people who reject any standardization of Forth), so the latter: they're one of several Forth vendors 03:31:59 ok 03:32:25 I find it interesting that people reject a standard, maybe I'm just not tuned into the way forth works yet as a total newbit 03:32:29 s/newbit/newbie/ 03:34:30 (clearly I am not, I have still not got my head around stack manipulations. I might make myself a little game to try and teach myself how to do them) 03:49:07 nihilazo: They've had a certain amount of influence over Forth and standardisation attempts. They are part of Forth's history, and one of the handful of serious commercial vendors. 03:50:24 k 03:50:32 I don't think anyone should claim the Forth standard is the one true forth, given the very nature of forth. It's the only serious attempt at a standard, and like all standards it has rough edges. It's been adopted by some of the commercial vendors and gforth, so that's about as successful as you can get 03:52:12 Learning standard Forth and being somewhat aware of which words are conventional and which are the standard attempting to 'unify' things is not a bad starting place, it's what I did 03:52:42 alright 03:52:45 You end up looking at other forths, and older forths, and older standards, and learning a bit more about the rough edges. I fully appreciate why people don't like the standard with that context, but I don't think it hurts to start there 03:53:02 I'm not sure when I'll be using forth, honestly. depends if I end up liking it I guess 03:53:20 I know there's modern forths for platforms like the c64 which are really interesting to me 03:54:05 Yeah I'm writing a less modern forth for the zx spectrum 03:54:11 https://github.com/veltas/zenv 03:54:17 nice 03:54:23 spectrum is cool 03:55:50 I'm actually using pforth on plan9 to learn with, just because :D 03:55:57 working well on unusual platforms seems to be a strong point of forth 03:56:20 (unusual/old/small/etc) 04:06:39 I am once again plugging my Forth for the Z80 (specifically the TI-84+ calculator) https://github.com/siraben/ti84-forth 04:07:18 Go for it, I need to read your code and steal your ideas :P 04:07:39 nihilazo: Nothing wrong with that! 04:08:48 I feel like I might end up liking forth a lot but also might end up disliking forth a lot, don't know enough about it to say yet 04:09:16 Prediction: you hate it and then you keep coming back to it 04:09:54 I'm at the "rationalising use of dead technology" stage 04:10:16 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 04:11:11 well, I want to get into developing for the c64 and it's either forth or 6502 asm 04:11:25 (6502 isn't that bad actually, tbh) 04:11:37 6502 asm warrants using bytecode pretty quickly because of how verbose it is 04:11:49 Sweet-16, something similar, or forth 04:12:03 Really all 8-bit codes are like this, but 6502 is especially bad 04:12:43 I think durexforth for the c64 (as well as having a funny name) is meant to be pretty good? 04:12:55 it's also developed by the developer of lsdj, so that's cool 04:13:06 I like 6502 too, writing it is very mechanical, and you can see where RISC came from 04:13:15 I have no idea if it's good, but if it's forth it probably is good 04:13:30 It has a vim-style editor supposedly so it must be good, I want something like that too eventually 04:13:49 Great minds think alike, I heard about what they did and it's basically what I was doing but for the C64 04:13:53 I'm not such a fan of vim-style editing, but it's better than the alternative keyboard-only editing styles to me 04:14:08 so nice to have on a c64 04:14:17 certainly better than the BASIC line editor lol 04:14:53 My only issue with BASIC on speccy is lack of move/copy for multiple lines at a time 04:15:18 And the token-based input is horrid 04:15:31 I want to get a real c64 at some point 04:15:32 It's actually quite good otherwise 04:15:44 but I'd need to set up a display and stuff as well, and ehh 04:15:45 No time like the present, they only get more expensive 04:15:50 they also sell for stupid prices on ebay already 04:16:06 I just like exploring computers where I can poke at memory, can't do that on a modern machine 04:16:26 (not easily, anyway. Because the OS gets in the way and everything) 04:16:27 I bought like 5 spectrums until I got one that worked years ago, price has gone up so much now I need to fix the others 04:16:44 wonder what the cheapest way to get a 64 is 04:16:46 ebay prices are dumb 04:16:59 They're not dumb it's just supply/demand, loads of people want them 04:17:15 yeah true 04:17:17 also the SID chip 04:17:38 people sell C64's without the SID chip and then sell the SID seperately for like £30 04:18:06 I had a dragon 32, that's a weird machine. 6809, almost compatible with a tandy color computer but not exactly 04:19:52 didn't do much with it 04:20:30 Anyway in my opinion Forth is the right language for 8-bit development, when you don't want to use pure assembly. 04:20:58 Or at least the right model, you might not want a full interpreter but just the threading is a good way to write larger assembly projects, especially for 6502 04:21:22 (You can write a forth to basically let you slice off the interpreter part when you have stable code you want to release) 04:27:17 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 04:28:09 yeah, it seems very flexible 04:28:23 I know there's a forth for the gameboy too, and many other platforms 04:28:44 generally people seem to think that forths work better than C on 8-bit machines, although that may be because mostly the C compilers suck. I have no clue tbh 04:28:55 and forth is a more interesting language to learn than C 04:35:32 have you checked Scheme too ? 04:37:34 yeah, scheme is cool, not sure about on 8-bit platforms 04:45:32 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 05:15:59 Scheme + Forth + Z80 = https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80 :D 05:17:04 Scheme is a great language to write an assembler in, and so I was able to extend it enough to make it easy to define Forth words https://github.com/siraben/zkeme80/blob/master/src/forth.scm 05:22:14 --- join: dysprosaic joined #forth 05:27:58 --- quit: dysprosaic (Quit: Quit) 05:37:05 --- join: f-a joined #forth 05:40:40 --- nick: jedb_ -> jedb 05:54:37 --- nick: Guest5275 -> KipIngram 05:59:51 nihilazo you know of 9front? it is more actively developed than plan9 these days. 06:00:19 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 06:01:40 --- join: elioat joined #forth 06:06:12 joe9: yes, I am running 9front 06:06:40 I just said plan9 because I've noticed a lot of 9front folks also just say plan9 when they mean 9front 06:20:50 nihilazo, interesting that forth works better than C on 8-bit machines. which ones do you think that's true for? I made a game in asm, C, and Forth for 6502 to compare and the Forth version was 3-10x slower than C 06:21:27 unless you mean compiling the forth on the machine itself instead of cross compiling :) forth is definitely better for that 06:21:48 huh, idk. I've just heard people say so 06:21:53 I don't actually know lol 06:22:16 although this is like, on the gameboy, the C compiler is complete garbage so it makes sense that a forth that isn't garbage would be better 06:22:26 haha ya lots of misinformation floating around. ive even heard people say forth is only about 25% slower than asm on 6502. thats absurd 06:47:11 MrMobius: I think it really depends on what you're doing, depending on critical words that might be entirely written in asm anyway especially 06:48:07 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:53:17 mhhh 06:53:27 I have a file some words 06:53:48 is there a way for me to «export» only some of them 06:53:55 I am using gforth, but any pointer would do 07:01:23 veltas, sure, just make your critical word thousands of lines of assembly then you only need to use it once :) 07:04:55 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 07:31:55 --- quit: elioat (Quit: elioat) 07:33:05 It might not be that C is entirely unsuitable but given modern CPUs and C's machine models compilers tend to be written with an assumption that an ~infinitely large stack is available and that collides somewhat with 6502's stack featuring an impressive 256 bytes 07:36:40 --- join: elioat joined #forth 07:38:50 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 07:39:23 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 07:40:32 --- quit: f-a (Quit: leaving) 07:40:47 --- join: f-a joined #forth 07:45:40 that testing words someone linked here yesterday are really cleverly written 07:46:52 https://github.com/gerryjackson/forth2012-test-suite ? 07:47:28 yes 07:47:38 I don't know the history, it seems like the standards people liked the tests so much they added it into their standards document, and onto the website 07:47:45 https://github.com/gerryjackson/forth2012-test-suite/blob/master/src/tester.fr such cosy reading 07:47:55 I definitely agree the tests are good 19:12:04 --- log: started forth/21.02.17 19:12:04 --- join: clog joined #forth 19:12:04 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN backup at http://forthworks.com/forth/irc-logs/ | If you have two (or more) stacks and speak RPN then you're welcome here! | https://github.com/mark4th' 19:12:04 --- topic: set by proteusguy!~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-146.revip7.asianet.co.th on [Mon Dec 30 10:43:28 2019] 19:12:04 --- names: list (clog veltas neuro_sys Keshl boru pareidolia zolk3ri dave0 _whitelogger inode X-Scale Zarutian_HTC iyzsong proteus-guy jedb Vedran sts-q nitrix cantstanya rpcope fiddlerwoaroof_ scoofy irsol nihilazo mstevens mjl Wojciech_K dys dddddd jevinskie[m] siraben jimt[m] patrickg APic crc- routeveg cp- joe9 koisoke Chobbes lispmacs[work] cmtptr tabemann astrid spoofer a3f TangentDelta rixard ovf cheers remexre MrMobius rann dnm Lord_Nightmare actuallybatman wineroots jn__) 19:12:04 --- names: list (+proteusguy Gromboli ornxka_ crest tolja +KipIngram rprimus crc guan djinni phadthai dzho klys ecraven krjst tangentstorm lonjil bluekelp) 19:22:23 --- quit: remexre (Remote host closed the connection) 19:23:45 --- join: remexre joined #forth 19:25:39 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 19:57:09 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 20:02:31 --- quit: zolk3ri (Remote host closed the connection) 20:04:51 --- join: zolk3ri joined #forth 20:59:44 --- quit: sts-q (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 21:00:55 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 21:09:07 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21:10:48 --- join: sts-q joined #forth 21:31:11 --- quit: zolk3ri (Remote host closed the connection) 21:33:13 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 21:50:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +v crc 21:58:26 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 23:15:42 --- join: lispmacs joined #forth 23:15:59 thought this was interesting: 23:16:05 https://github.com/howerj/forth-cpu 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/21.02.17