00:00:00 --- log: started forth/21.01.02 01:05:03 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 01:05:25 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 01:15:07 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:24:49 --- join: birdwing joined #forth 02:06:44 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 02:19:50 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 02:38:08 --- quit: cantstanya (Remote host closed the connection) 02:41:49 --- join: cantstanya joined #forth 02:50:46 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 03:04:45 --- quit: cantstanya (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:11:18 --- join: cantstanya joined #forth 04:54:12 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 05:04:51 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 05:09:35 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 05:28:27 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 05:28:52 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 05:54:04 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 06:44:23 --- nick: jedb__ -> jedb 07:18:26 --- quit: MrMobius (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 07:18:33 --- join: MrMobius joined #forth 07:43:59 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 09:04:43 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 09:37:51 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 10:20:13 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 10:26:17 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Quit: Leaving) 10:35:35 --- quit: tabemann_ (Remote host closed the connection) 10:35:49 --- join: tabemann_ joined #forth 10:44:39 http://h14s.p5r.org/2014/11/why-i-find-ieee-754-frustrating.html ! Seriously, _how_ could I possibly care about ""[_ANS_] Forth""? Let alone _why_! ""ANS Forth"" is an ID10Tic joke. 10:44:39 C(11) is ex/port/ quality . 10:55:44 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 11:00:21 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 11:11:28 over the past year i've adopted the possibly misguided opinion that all real values in computing should be fixed point 11:13:15 maybe i just haven't seen it but i just can't imagine a use-case where you don't know the scale of numbers you'll be working with at code time 11:36:43 --- join: Gromboli1 joined #forth 11:38:59 --- quit: Gromboli (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 11:38:59 --- nick: Gromboli1 -> Gromboli 11:40:58 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:41:19 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 11:49:00 --- quit: birdwing (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 12:07:47 --- join: Gromboli2 joined #forth 12:09:54 --- quit: Gromboli (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 12:09:55 --- nick: Gromboli2 -> Gromboli 12:32:20 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 13:26:40 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 13:48:53 cmtptr, maybe you know the scale but fixed point is too slow 13:49:29 fixed point seems good for embedded where you dont have an fpu 13:57:44 re floating point and fixed point. One version I have seen where loss of precision is unacceptable is where you have fixed point big part and floating point offset from that 13:58:30 a bit how Minecraft handles world coordnates 14:35:29 MrMobius, there's nothing inherent to float that makes it faster though. it's only faster in some situations because people wanted floats and so hardware vendors optimized for it 14:36:19 Zarutian_HTC, couldn't you do that with two fixed point words? it's basically multi-precision fixed, right? 14:37:07 cmtptr: sure 14:39:19 in fact that's even the case where i say floats are typically used and it makes no sense to me. why do you need finer resolution closer to the origin of a chunk or whatever they call the cube measured by the more significant coordinates 14:40:02 it seems like unless you're very careful, you end up with physics that behave slightly differently based on relation to arbitrary boundaries 14:46:47 like i said earlier, maybe i just don't get it. but these are the discussions i've had with myself in the shower and now i can't think of any case where floating point actually makes any sense 15:58:50 cmtptr: As I pointed out at some point, fixed point is usually worse accuracy than floating point even when you're relatively close to the optimal exponent 15:59:48 And the fact is even in simple calculations the exponent of different numbers involved in the steps to calculate can vary wildly in their exponents, the end result is much more accurate 16:00:04 floating point is definitely much more "user friendly" than fixed point 16:01:21 Fixed point is much more forthy though, faster, and uses *way* less code in embedded 16:32:44 veltas, but if you need that precision then can't you just choose your units and bit width appropriately? the same problem is there with floats, it just mysteriously works at some scales and doesn't at others 16:33:36 With floats the precision is less, but the scale is always optimal. 16:33:51 I mean units are always optimal 16:36:33 Usually within one calculation a number of different units are optimal for different numbers, floating point will handle that accurately, fixed does not 16:37:27 If you don't believe me try it out yourself, it's obvious very quickly that fixed is a lot of effort and less accurate. But still less effort than writing floating in software and 'faster' 16:37:56 But if you've got highly parallel work and a normal computer with streaming floating operations then it's not even faster... 16:40:38 i have tried it out. i'm using fixed point in my own software, it seems way simpler to me because i know what to expect 16:42:41 And compare the results with floating point 16:45:07 i have. with floats you get weird artifacts because you lose sigfigs at higher scales and you gain sigfigs at lower scales 16:45:52 how is that ever what you'd want?? 16:55:31 You don't gain or lose significant figures with floats, fixed point has more significant figures available at the optimal unit but less in most units 16:56:18 The weird artifacts are often much less severe than the loss of accuracy of fixed point in typical calculations 16:56:55 If it works for you then it's because of the kind of calculation you're doing, floating point is much more flexible, obviously I wouldn't claim it's better in all situations. 17:01:20 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Quit: Bye) 17:03:26 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 17:04:26 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 17:04:27 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 17:06:35 --- quit: jedb (*.net *.split) 17:06:35 --- quit: WilhelmVonWeiner (*.net *.split) 17:06:35 --- quit: djinni (*.net *.split) 17:06:35 --- quit: catern (*.net *.split) 17:06:35 --- quit: tolja (*.net *.split) 17:09:54 --- join: jedb joined #forth 17:09:54 --- join: WilhelmVonWeiner joined #forth 17:09:54 --- join: djinni joined #forth 17:09:54 --- join: tolja joined #forth 17:28:58 --- join: catern joined #forth 18:35:24 --- join: jedb_ joined #forth 18:38:28 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 18:39:35 --- join: WilhelmV1nWeiner joined #forth 18:39:43 well i will accept that it's possible i just haven't been faced with the right situation yet to see the value 18:40:17 --- join: djinni_ joined #forth 18:40:21 i know that sometimes i can be dense to things until i experience it firsthand 18:43:13 --- join: lonjil2 joined #forth 18:44:14 --- quit: fiddlerwoaroof (*.net *.split) 18:44:14 --- quit: pareidolia (*.net *.split) 18:44:14 --- quit: bluekelp (*.net *.split) 18:44:14 --- quit: lonjil (*.net *.split) 18:44:14 --- quit: jedb (*.net *.split) 18:44:14 --- quit: WilhelmVonWeiner (*.net *.split) 18:44:14 --- quit: djinni (*.net *.split) 18:44:14 --- quit: tolja (*.net *.split) 18:44:32 --- join: fiddlerwoaroof joined #forth 18:46:49 --- join: bluekelp joined #forth 18:47:33 --- join: pareidolia joined #forth 18:47:48 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:47:51 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:47:53 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:49:07 --- join: tolja joined #forth 19:39:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 19:42:20 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 19:42:34 --- quit: proteus-guy (Remote host closed the connection) 20:18:44 --- quit: sts-q (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 20:21:17 --- join: sts-q joined #forth 20:51:05 --- quit: cantstanya (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:55:24 --- join: cantstanya joined #forth 21:25:26 --- join: zolk3ri joined #forth 22:05:41 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 22:30:44 --- join: birdwing joined #forth 22:39:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 22:42:20 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 23:50:04 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 23:54:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 23:57:19 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/21.01.02