[2021-03-16 00:15:02] ⇐ _whitelogger_ quit (~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-16 00:18:04] → _whitelogger_ joined (~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org) [2021-03-16 00:31:08] → lispmacs joined (~user@fsf/member/lispmacs) [2021-03-16 00:43:22] → hosewiejacke joined (~hosewieja@i5C743919.versanet.de) [2021-03-16 00:48:09] ⇐ dave0 quit (~davezero@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au): Quit: dave's not here [2021-03-16 01:54:38] ⇐ tabemann quit (~travisb@2600:1700:7990:24e0:101f:ae79:c83b:6c90): Ping timeout: 264 seconds [2021-03-16 02:06:01] → travisb joined (~travisb@2600:1700:7990:24e0:101f:ae79:c83b:6c90) [2021-03-16 02:27:02] ⇐ _whitelogger_ quit (~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-16 02:30:03] → _whitelogger_ joined (~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org) [2021-03-16 03:24:18] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.68.41.140) [2021-03-16 03:58:34] → jedb joined (~jedb@177.67.80.187) [2021-03-16 03:59:48] ⇐ jedb__ quit (~jedb@181.215.46.112): Ping timeout: 256 seconds [2021-03-16 04:15:53] ⇐ hosewiejacke quit (~hosewieja@i5C743919.versanet.de): Ping timeout: 245 seconds [2021-03-16 04:25:28] ⇐ lispmacs quit (~user@fsf/member/lispmacs): Ping timeout: 245 seconds [2021-03-16 04:25:44] → dave0 joined (~davezero@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) [2021-03-16 04:37:50] → hosewiejacke joined (~hosewieja@i5C743919.versanet.de) [2021-03-16 04:40:36] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.68.41.140): Quit: leaving [2021-03-16 05:12:14] ⇐ Lord_Nightmare quit (~Lord_Nigh@unaffiliated/lordnlptp): Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in [2021-03-16 05:16:11] → Lord_Nightmare joined (~Lord_Nigh@unaffiliated/lordnlptp) [2021-03-16 06:36:46] ⇐ hosewiejacke quit (~hosewieja@i5C743919.versanet.de): Ping timeout: 276 seconds [2021-03-16 07:38:08] → hosewiejacke joined (~hosewieja@i5C743919.versanet.de) [2021-03-16 08:16:18] → tech_exorcist joined (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-viqxcdujvdfxxrrd) [2021-03-16 08:57:19] → elioat joined (~elioat@98.2.227.87) [2021-03-16 10:21:38] → Zarutian_HTC joined (~bj@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) [2021-03-16 10:38:10] → epstein joined (dwsjeid911@gateway/vpn/mullvad/dwsjeid911) [2021-03-16 10:38:12] ⇐ epstein quit (dwsjeid911@gateway/vpn/mullvad/dwsjeid911): K-Lined [2021-03-16 11:03:24] → lispmacs joined (~user@fsf/member/lispmacs) [2021-03-16 11:17:36] ⇐ dave0 quit (~davezero@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au): Quit: dave's not here [2021-03-16 11:28:13] ⇐ Zarutian_HTC quit (~bj@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is): Ping timeout: 260 seconds [2021-03-16 12:06:22] → Zarutian_HTC joined (~bj@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) [2021-03-16 12:08:14] ⇐ Zarutian_HTC quit (~bj@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is): Read error: Connection reset by peer [2021-03-16 12:08:37] → Zarutian_HTC joined (~bj@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) [2021-03-16 12:19:03] ⇐ elioat quit (~elioat@98.2.227.87): Quit: elioat [2021-03-16 12:22:02] ⇐ tech_exorcist quit (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-viqxcdujvdfxxrrd): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-16 12:22:51] → tech_exorcist joined (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-gblatrfuehgbsiqb) [2021-03-16 12:24:18] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.68.165.155) [2021-03-16 12:32:12] → elioat joined (~elioat@98.2.227.87) [2021-03-16 12:41:57] ⇐ lispmacs quit (~user@fsf/member/lispmacs): Ping timeout: 246 seconds [2021-03-16 12:46:37] ⇐ hosewiejacke quit (~hosewieja@i5C743919.versanet.de): Ping timeout: 276 seconds [2021-03-16 13:21:32] → lispmacs joined (~user@fsf/member/lispmacs) [2021-03-16 13:30:24] ⇐ mark4 quit (~mark4@cpe-75-191-74-68.triad.res.rr.com): Quit: Leaving [2021-03-16 13:41:52] ⇐ gravicappa quit (~gravicapp@h109-187-216-126.dyn.bashtel.ru): Ping timeout: 276 seconds [2021-03-16 13:43:01] → gravicappa joined (~gravicapp@h109-187-196-180.dyn.bashtel.ru) [2021-03-16 13:46:19] → mark4 joined (~mark4@cpe-75-191-74-68.triad.res.rr.com) [2021-03-16 13:50:51] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.68.165.155): Quit: bbiab [2021-03-16 13:59:26] → neto joined (~neto@79.72.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) [2021-03-16 13:59:58] mark4 not here? colour me surprised [2021-03-16 14:02:36] ⇐ xek quit (~xek@46.204.48.92.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-16 14:05:34] im here lol [2021-03-16 14:05:52] i jumping between OS's on 2 diff laptops [2021-03-16 14:06:06] looking into switching from firefox to ungoogled chromium [2021-03-16 14:06:19] darn! missed you cuz you don't have the op char before your name [2021-03-16 14:06:27] why?? [2021-03-16 14:06:30] yea i didnt log in [2021-03-16 14:06:53] you should look into the surf web browser ;) [2021-03-16 14:07:16] it's a shame surf is so bad lol [2021-03-16 14:07:19] links or bust :P [2021-03-16 14:07:26] it can't render half the pages I try and view in it, ended up giving up on it entireyl [2021-03-16 14:07:33] (also it's suckless, and suckless sucks) [2021-03-16 14:07:35] https://surf.suckless.org/ [2021-03-16 14:07:41] suckless software is great [2021-03-16 14:07:57] problem is the modern bloated web [2021-03-16 14:08:02] suckless software is just user-hostile for the sake of persuing a nonsense ideology of what simplicity is [2021-03-16 14:08:29] yes, of course it makes sense to recompile the entire program to change your config rather than load a configuration file, because files SUCK! lmao [2021-03-16 14:08:47] I'm on a 5 year old version of slackware and suckless software is the only stuff that still installs without any big problem [2021-03-16 14:08:55] also suckless is full of nazis lol [2021-03-16 14:09:21] if you care about that, some people seperate art from artist but I kinda don't want to use software made by nazis :P [2021-03-16 14:09:29] it does make sense if it saves on writing yet another parser and itnerpreter when all you want is to set some variables [2021-03-16 14:09:50] nihilazo: that's a really weak argument but okay [2021-03-16 14:09:59] GNU is full of literal commies yet I still use their software [2021-03-16 14:10:11] I guess, idk. Suckless stuff for me on a practical level is just too minimal to be useful [2021-03-16 14:10:26] it's like the unix philosophy of making small sharp tools, with the exception that the tools are blunt and can't work together [2021-03-16 14:10:31] he says, in a forth chatroom [2021-03-16 14:10:47] can't work together?? is that a joke? [2021-03-16 14:10:59] surf and st don't implement tabs cuz that's the job of another program [2021-03-16 14:11:09] is that not working together? [2021-03-16 14:11:21] is that not the Unix philosophy? [2021-03-16 14:11:25] → xek joined (~xek@46.204.48.92.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl) [2021-03-16 14:11:25] ⇐ xek quit (~xek@46.204.48.92.nat.umts.dynamic.t-mobile.pl): Client Quit [2021-03-16 14:11:28] I mean, not if the tools are shit lol [2021-03-16 14:11:42] how are they shit [2021-03-16 14:11:44] which surf and st are, they don't implement basic things (like scrollback in st for example) [2021-03-16 14:11:47] you have to patch them [2021-03-16 14:11:49] which is a pain in the ass [2021-03-16 14:11:55] and then one patch is incompatible with another patch [2021-03-16 14:12:06] or one patch only works on an older version so you have to downgrade and hack on it yourself [2021-03-16 14:12:14] patches are easy af to apply idk what u're on about [2021-03-16 14:12:19] and then everything is built for X11, which is the biggest turd of a platform that exists [2021-03-16 14:12:31] so if you're on a modern linux you have to run them in xwayland which sucks [2021-03-16 14:12:38] i've never seen an actual user of suckless stuff complain about incompatible patches, they're largely a non issue [2021-03-16 14:13:08] by "modern linux" you mean a couple of distros? [2021-03-16 14:13:32] cuz a couple years ago no one was using wayland, and to me a couple years ago is still perfectly modern [2021-03-16 14:16:10] Linux will never be successful on the desktop if we keep changing fundamental shit every few years [2021-03-16 14:16:48] people don't want their software to magically break [2021-03-16 14:17:11] in that sense suckless is FAR better than any piece of "modern" Linux desktop software [2021-03-16 14:20:26] suckless just magically breaks when you update it and all the patches no longer apply :P [2021-03-16 14:20:54] also by "modern linux" i mean "linux using technology that is current" rather than "linux using a bunch of archaic bullshit that is only still around because of nvidia" [2021-03-16 14:21:08] ubuntu and fedora are both wayland by default now, I consider that mainstream [2021-03-16 14:21:41] are there known vulnerabilities in X11 that I haven't heard of? [2021-03-16 14:22:57] I have literally seen people who only know bash and aren't programmers apply patches to suckless software and fix compatability issues with the patches [2021-03-16 14:23:05] I'm not sure what the most recent one is, but there have been many and continue to be many [2021-03-16 14:23:14] because X11 is ancient software being used for things it completely wasn't designed for [2021-03-16 14:23:33] nobody wants to maintain X because it's unmaintainable [2021-03-16 14:23:57] hence wayland, which has actually been designed to be extended and compatible with things and flexible in ways X never was [2021-03-16 14:24:27] I have no problem with ditching X11 for somehing better, just don't FORCE me to change key pieces of my system every few years cuz you dislike it [2021-03-16 14:24:32] maybe I just had a terrible experience with suckless but honestly, they just make bad tools, or at least bad tools for the way I want to work [2021-03-16 14:24:35] nobody's forcing you to move to wayland [2021-03-16 14:24:57] stick on X and watch applications stop being compatible because nobody wants to support it [2021-03-16 14:25:08] nobody is forcing anything, it's just the passage of time [2021-03-16 14:25:44] ⇐ elioat quit (~elioat@98.2.227.87): Quit: elioat [2021-03-16 14:25:56] "we're not gonna FORCE you to do come over to our side, we'll just coerce you to" [2021-03-16 14:25:57] great [2021-03-16 14:27:37] I mean [2021-03-16 14:27:42] or you could maintain all the software for X yourself [2021-03-16 14:28:06] I'm sure there'll be an X user community that refuses to adopt wayland, keeping stuff patched or whatever [2021-03-16 14:28:17] but linux, in general, is moving on from X. [2021-03-16 14:28:18] but linux, in general, is moving on from X [2021-03-16 14:28:43] The desktop linux community loves to destroy the systems it has built every few years and then acts SHOCKED when people don't want to switch over from their windows machine running 30 yo pieces of software [2021-03-16 14:28:49] it's not "we're forcing people to change because we don't like X" it's "we finally got to the point where X is unmaintainable and we're starting again with something reasonable" [2021-03-16 14:29:02] linux is a pile of shit piled on shit piled on shit, to be honest [2021-03-16 14:29:07] like, if we wanted an OS that didn't suck we'd run plan9 [2021-03-16 14:29:13] linux is garbage [2021-03-16 14:29:19] and continues to get more garbage [2021-03-16 14:29:33] the only difference between linux's garbage and the garbage of a commercial OS is that people argue about linux's garbage more [2021-03-16 14:29:36] so you admit your approach doesn't work [2021-03-16 14:29:59] your approach of destroying our systems every few years just does not work [2021-03-16 14:30:09] neither does sticking around though [2021-03-16 14:30:19] nothing works, because linux is a steaming tower of shit [2021-03-16 14:30:23] we're doing it with wayland now, we've done it with systemd before, pulseaudio and other crap [2021-03-16 14:30:40] it's a steaming pile of shit just like every other OS [2021-03-16 14:30:47] you can stick with X and have unmaintainable nonsense or move to wayland and have X stuff break [2021-03-16 14:30:56] although X stuff doesn't break on wayland because xwayland mostly does a decent job [2021-03-16 14:30:57] now shut up about it and start working on stuff that matters, not on reinventing the wheel [2021-03-16 14:31:15] wayland is backwards compatible, unless you have an nvidia GPU in which case it doesn't work at all because nvidia are the worst [2021-03-16 14:31:25] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.68.165.155) [2021-03-16 14:31:33] honestly, the only way I see a good OS being built is if we start again from scratch [2021-03-16 14:31:54] or maybe plan 9 [2021-03-16 14:32:02] okay man, I don't care, I just hope you know that's one of the reasons why Linux will never be a mainstream desktop OS, because we keep tearing it down every few years [2021-03-16 14:32:03] NihilazOS [2021-03-16 14:32:08] but plan 9 is still unix derived and therefore still inherets nonsense from unix [2021-03-16 14:32:17] f-a: coming soon to a 6502 near you [2021-03-16 14:32:31] I don't want linux to be a mainstream desktop OS, it's garbage [2021-03-16 14:32:35] I want to see the end of desktop computing [2021-03-16 14:32:39] I fucking hate computers lol [2021-03-16 14:32:50] I'm just on a quest to find the least worst way to use a computer [2021-03-16 14:32:52] nihilazo: you misunderstand the core problem and are, therefore, cursed to wander around lost forever [2021-03-16 14:33:12] like, I could build my own architecture from scratch [2021-03-16 14:33:16] hardware and software, all of it [2021-03-16 14:33:16] yep, nihilism is one of the main ways to deal with it [2021-03-16 14:33:20] my perfect OS [2021-03-16 14:33:23] but like [2021-03-16 14:33:30] it would suck because I'm a bad programmer [2021-03-16 14:33:36] it's a lot easier to say everything sucks and nothing matters than to face the problems [2021-03-16 14:34:01] the problems: old linux stuff is bad, new linux stuff is bad, other OSs are all bad [2021-03-16 14:34:08] the solution: idk man figure it out somehow I guess??? [2021-03-16 14:34:19] computing is just in a state that needs a total reset but that's never gonna happen [2021-03-16 14:34:32] solution: stop reinventing the wheel [2021-03-16 14:34:40] ditch all existing protocols, ditch the web, ditch unix and linux, ditch everything. Rebuild from scratch. Like society needs to be in general honestly [2021-03-16 14:35:02] neto: is wayland reinventing the wheel? [2021-03-16 14:35:06] or is it replacing a wheel that won't turn any more? [2021-03-16 14:35:11] because I see it more like the latter [2021-03-16 14:35:24] inevitably software goes to shit over time and inevitably software will continue doing so [2021-03-16 14:35:56] you say that as millions of such wheels turn right this instance [2021-03-16 14:35:58] so either we replace stuff, have periods of slightly less bad, or we give up and have bad [2021-03-16 14:36:11] neto: I mean, held together by duct tape they do [2021-03-16 14:36:27] I just can't stand computers at all tbh [2021-03-16 14:36:28] there is no good [2021-03-16 14:36:32] there is only garbage [2021-03-16 14:36:46] yeah first years of new software are always great, not buggy and badly supported at all /s [2021-03-16 14:36:57] my quest for good computing has turned up nothing [2021-03-16 14:36:59] tbh [2021-03-16 14:37:14] yeah I noticed, no need to keep talking about it [2021-03-16 14:37:17] I feel like I've explored every idea and system that exists and they all have breaking issues [2021-03-16 14:37:20] this isn't an emo poetry chatroom [2021-03-16 14:37:28] ....shit this chat is logged [2021-03-16 14:37:31] welcome do adulthood, kiddo [2021-03-16 14:37:46] lmao this is gonna be on the internet forever [2021-03-16 14:37:48] lol [2021-03-16 14:38:16] no one cares enough about this to log it for more than a few years, I hope [2021-03-16 14:38:25] ⇐ mark4 quit (~mark4@cpe-75-191-74-68.triad.res.rr.com): Quit: Leaving [2021-03-16 14:38:26] I hope so for their own sacke [2021-03-16 14:40:16] sorry [2021-03-16 14:40:29] this is #forth, not my therapist. I apologise. And I should leave. [2021-03-16 14:40:46] but suckless is still bad, even when you run it on top of a pile of other bad things :P [2021-03-16 14:41:30] «tell me about your father stack» [2021-03-16 14:41:37] the guy arguing for tearing this all down is against minimalism, smh [2021-03-16 14:47:30] → mark4 joined (~mark4@cpe-75-191-74-68.triad.res.rr.com) [2021-03-16 14:47:30] * ChanServ set +v mark4 [2021-03-16 14:57:44] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.68.165.155): Quit: leaving [2021-03-16 14:58:00] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.68.165.155) [2021-03-16 15:17:02] → hosewiejacke joined (~hosewieja@i5C743919.versanet.de) [2021-03-16 15:20:31] ⇐ spoofer quit (~spoofer@64.185.119.226): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-16 15:20:40] ⇐ hosewiejacke quit (~hosewieja@i5C743919.versanet.de): Client Quit [2021-03-16 15:53:47] < neto> no one cares enough about this to log it for more than a few years, I hope [2021-03-16 15:54:01] ^ 20 years worth of #forth logs @ http://forthworks.com/forth/irc-logs/ [2021-03-16 15:55:09] =D [2021-03-16 15:57:10] ⇐ gravicappa quit (~gravicapp@h109-187-196-180.dyn.bashtel.ru): Ping timeout: 260 seconds [2021-03-16 16:23:07] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.68.165.155): Read error: Connection reset by peer [2021-03-16 16:28:04] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.68.89.236) [2021-03-16 16:34:57] ⇐ Sweedish quit (~Sweedish@192-222-202-13.qc.cable.ebox.net): Quit: Leaving [2021-03-16 16:51:37] ⇐ mark4 quit (~mark4@cpe-75-191-74-68.triad.res.rr.com): Quit: Leaving [2021-03-16 17:10:11] → dys joined (~dys@aurora.ydns.eu) [2021-03-16 17:16:21] 20 years of logs isn't *that* much... [2021-03-16 17:17:24] — crc might have some slightly older ones; I'll have to check my other archives [2021-03-16 17:42:26] ive only been on irc for about 18 years 0_0 [2021-03-16 18:06:56] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.68.89.236): Quit: leaving [2021-03-16 18:22:30] I've had my nick registered just under 18 years, was on for a while w/o registration prior to that [2021-03-16 18:23:19] I think I registered so I could setup #retro [2021-03-16 18:35:26] ⇐ neto quit (~neto@79.72.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt): *.net *.split [2021-03-16 18:40:44] → neto joined (~neto@79.72.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt) [2021-03-16 18:41:36] → mark4 joined (~mark4@cpe-75-191-74-68.triad.res.rr.com) [2021-03-16 18:41:47] * ChanServ set +v mark4 [2021-03-16 19:03:32] ⇐ tech_exorcist quit (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-gblatrfuehgbsiqb): Quit: tech_exorcist [2021-03-16 19:09:30] → dave0 joined (~davezero@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au) [2021-03-16 19:24:27] ⇐ proteusguy quit (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-13.revip7.asianet.co.th): Ping timeout: 246 seconds [2021-03-16 19:36:09] ⇐ neto quit (~neto@79.72.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt): Quit: Lost terminal [2021-03-16 19:38:46] → proteusguy joined (~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-13.revip7.asianet.co.th) [2021-03-16 19:38:46] * ChanServ set +v proteusguy [2021-03-16 21:36:55] * travisb → tabemann [2021-03-16 21:57:20] — tabemann scrolls up and sees the therapy session [2021-03-16 22:01:40] my question is why would I use wayland just because someone considers it "modern" [2021-03-16 22:01:44] "modern" can go to hell [2021-03-16 22:03:05] — tabemann is happy working on a machine that is less powerful, aside from sheer MHz, than a SPARCstation circa 1990 [2021-03-16 22:04:04] well, it's almost certainly got more peripherals than it, but far less RAM and fixed storage [2021-03-16 22:05:13] wayland spent too much time as vaporware [2021-03-16 22:06:18] you can't even take a screenshot in it! [2021-03-16 22:06:38] because the designers couldn't decide what security model to use that would allow one to take a screenshot [2021-03-16 22:08:44] lol [2021-03-16 22:08:52] but yeah, if you want "modern" you should be using a Mac, because the non-macOS Unix-like world, outside of a certain Red Hat developer who shall not be named, generally values tradition unless something truly outweighs it over new for new's sake [2021-03-16 22:09:17] especially the BSD world [2021-03-16 22:09:28] X is old, tired, clunky, hacked on and patched with ducttape [2021-03-16 22:09:29] and works [2021-03-16 22:09:38] to them the Linux people are running roughshod over everything good and holy in the world [2021-03-16 22:10:17] isnt a screenshot simply a case of reading memory at a0000000 or something? [2021-03-16 22:10:47] the wayland people want to make sure that only properly authorized applications can see your screen [2021-03-16 22:10:56] but they haven't figured out how to make that happen [2021-03-16 22:11:09] so they've settled with no applications seeing your screen [2021-03-16 22:11:34] and other stuff [2021-03-16 22:11:59] like how every "compositor" (what they call a window manager IIRC) has to reimplement a bunch of crap [2021-03-16 22:12:31] whereas any old process can be a window manager under X without having to bother with any compositing crap [2021-03-16 22:13:35] like every window manager has to be Compiz [2021-03-16 22:15:05] wayland is what you get when you decide to replace everything and do everything Right from scratch... but realize that's never going to work, so you create Xwayland to deal with the fact that there are a ton of applications whose developers are not going to rewrite their applications just so they can go along with your scheme [2021-03-16 22:17:10] ⇐ lispmacs quit (~user@fsf/member/lispmacs): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-16 22:36:33] ⇐ jyf quit (~jyf@158.247.193.44): Ping timeout: 264 seconds [2021-03-16 22:38:10] → jyf joined (~jyf@158.247.193.44) [2021-03-16 22:39:01] → boru` joined (~boru@unaffiliated/boru) [2021-03-16 22:39:03] ⇐ boru quit (~boru@unaffiliated/boru): Disconnected by services [2021-03-16 22:39:06] * boru` → boru [2021-03-16 23:01:41] ⇐ dave0 quit (~davezero@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au): Quit: dave's not here [2021-03-16 23:17:41] — crc can't use wayland at all, so happily ignores it [2021-03-16 23:27:58] ⇐ _whitelogger_ quit (~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-16 23:27:58] ⇐ _whitelogger__ quit (~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-16 23:28:45] ⇐ sts-q quit (~sts-q@212.53.219.207): Ping timeout: 246 seconds [2021-03-16 23:35:31] → sts-q joined (~sts-q@91.200.108.200) [2021-03-16 23:57:14] I've switched to wayland (sway) a few months ago and it's been a massive improvement for me [2021-03-16 23:57:33] No screen tearing and external displays with different DPIs work without fiddling around with scaling [2021-03-16 23:58:06] I guess the only downside is that I haven't figured out screen sharing for wayland applications, but I dual boot my laptop so I just go into macOS for that