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[2021-03-12 07:22:08] ⇐ hosewiejacke quit (~hosewieja@i5C740EC1.versanet.de): Ping timeout: 245 seconds [2021-03-12 07:30:15] → mirrorbird joined (dwsjeid911@gateway/vpn/mullvad/dwsjeid911) [2021-03-12 07:30:16] lispmacs: My unrelated suggestion: build a higher level string vocabulary, because the built-in words alone will be difficult to work with. [2021-03-12 07:30:51] That being said, it sounds like a good exercise, I might try that too. [2021-03-12 07:42:25] ⇐ mirrorbird quit (dwsjeid911@gateway/vpn/mullvad/dwsjeid911): Quit: Leaving [2021-03-12 07:45:27] → tech_exorcist joined (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-ibrjhnyefvknsdac) [2021-03-12 07:49:15] ⇐ tech_exorcist quit (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-ibrjhnyefvknsdac): Max SendQ exceeded [2021-03-12 08:23:23] → hosewiejacke joined (~hosewieja@i5C740EC1.versanet.de) [2021-03-12 08:27:50] → mirrorbird joined (dwsjeid911@gateway/vpn/mullvad/dwsjeid911) [2021-03-12 08:32:27] → tech_exorcist joined (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-ddvtgwybskvviump) [2021-03-12 08:37:07] ⇐ andrei-n quit (~andrei-n@109.130.156.104): Quit: Leaving [2021-03-12 08:58:02] → elioat joined (~elioat@98.2.227.87) [2021-03-12 09:43:21] * ChanServ set +v mark4 [2021-03-12 10:30:33] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.36.221.225) [2021-03-12 10:33:29] ⇐ dave0 quit (~davezero@069.d.003.ncl.iprimus.net.au): Quit: dave's not here [2021-03-12 11:02:33] ⇐ hosewiejacke quit (~hosewieja@i5C740EC1.versanet.de): Ping timeout: 245 seconds [2021-03-12 11:15:08] → hosewiejacke joined (~hosewieja@i5C740EC1.versanet.de) [2021-03-12 11:36:50] ⇐ inode quit (~inode@unaffiliated/inode): Quit:  [2021-03-12 11:41:26] → inode joined (~inode@unaffiliated/inode) [2021-03-12 11:52:09] ⇐ elioat quit (~elioat@98.2.227.87): Quit: elioat [2021-03-12 11:53:30] → elioat joined (~elioat@98.2.227.87) [2021-03-12 12:05:42] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.36.221.225): Quit: leaving [2021-03-12 12:20:12] ⇐ spoofer quit (~spoofer@64.185.119.226): Quit: Lost terminal [2021-03-12 12:21:59] ⇐ elioat quit (~elioat@98.2.227.87): Quit: elioat [2021-03-12 12:27:40] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.36.221.225) [2021-03-12 12:29:13] ⇐ hosewiejacke quit (~hosewieja@i5C740EC1.versanet.de): Ping timeout: 245 seconds [2021-03-12 12:29:17] ⇐ tech_exorcist quit (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-ddvtgwybskvviump): Quit: tech_exorcist [2021-03-12 12:29:51] → tech_exorcist joined (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-gfvdwyqpiwcmknpn) [2021-03-12 12:33:39] ⇐ tech_exorcist quit (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-gfvdwyqpiwcmknpn): Max SendQ exceeded [2021-03-12 12:34:00] → tech_exorcist joined (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-kzrcjitwzswtnwkz) [2021-03-12 12:34:09] → elioat joined (~elioat@98.2.227.87) [2021-03-12 12:46:03] ⇐ gravicappa quit (~gravicapp@h109-187-55-162.dyn.bashtel.ru): Ping timeout: 260 seconds [2021-03-12 12:49:18] → gravicappa joined (~gravicapp@h62-133-183-196.dyn.bashtel.ru) [2021-03-12 13:07:03] → hosewiejacke joined (~hosewieja@i5C740EC1.versanet.de) [2021-03-12 13:16:09] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.36.221.225): Ping timeout: 264 seconds [2021-03-12 13:16:43] ⇐ hosewiejacke quit (~hosewieja@i5C740EC1.versanet.de): Ping timeout: 245 seconds [2021-03-12 13:17:31] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.34.132.159) [2021-03-12 13:32:55] → hosewiejacke joined (~hosewieja@i5C740EC1.versanet.de) [2021-03-12 13:32:55] ⇐ hosewiejacke quit (~hosewieja@i5C740EC1.versanet.de): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-12 13:43:09] ⇐ tech_exorcist quit (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-kzrcjitwzswtnwkz): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-12 13:43:57] → tech_exorcist joined (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-jgertzsdgqqcbskk) [2021-03-12 13:46:16] ⇐ mirrorbird quit (dwsjeid911@gateway/vpn/mullvad/dwsjeid911): Quit: Leaving [2021-03-12 14:08:01] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.34.132.159): Ping timeout: 276 seconds [2021-03-12 14:09:05] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.38.135.246) [2021-03-12 14:10:57] hi, is there any forth for AVR that can interface with existing arduino stuff? I only know enforth which is (apparently) very unfinished, amforth which is a complete replacement for anything arduino, and arduino-FVM which seems weird [2021-03-12 14:15:05] nihilazo: i would not try to use arduino compiled thigns in forth [2021-03-12 14:15:15] use amforth and implement those things in forth [2021-03-12 14:15:32] but that would require reimplementing a lot of things [2021-03-12 14:15:38] so instad of having [f][ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc] where F is the forth based stuff and C is the c based stuff [2021-03-12 14:15:44] yup and in forth that is trivial [2021-03-12 14:15:48] unless amforth has USB and i2c and such [2021-03-12 14:15:49] not quick but trivial [2021-03-12 14:16:01] yeah I don't want to have to reimplement tons of stuff [2021-03-12 14:16:54] actually not c in this case but c++ which in all cases is ABSOLUTELY mutually exclusing with embedded [2021-03-12 14:17:02] no exceptions [2021-03-12 14:17:42] idk how to implement USB HID from scratch! lol [2021-03-12 14:23:34] i guess you have to determine whether it's going to be easier to implement HID or FFI (plus any linkage trickery required) then [2021-03-12 14:23:48] i changed the x64 license to mit, im currently going through every change i have in my local x4 clone and either back tracking them or adding them for commit [2021-03-12 14:24:11] there are a lot of files listed in git status that are marked as modified that have no differences shown by git diff (white space bs?) [2021-03-12 14:24:22] so im reverting those. its a horrendous mess right now [2021-03-12 14:24:31] lots of changes i made over 2 years ago and no idea wtf i was doing lol [2021-03-12 14:24:48] some of them are related to the TUI in there that im going to be rewriting anyway so meh [2021-03-12 14:25:23] but i have to keep doing git diff foo/bar/bam/fud.f followed by git checkout foo/bar/bam.f over and over and over and over.. . . . ... [2021-03-12 14:25:34] nihilazo: I don't know of an option other than arduino-fvm. I abandoned it for flashforth [2021-03-12 14:26:05] → Rakko joined (~Rakko@071-082-226-018.res.spectrum.com) [2021-03-12 14:26:19] ⇐ astrid quit (~xmc@unaffiliated/xmc): Ping timeout: 272 seconds [2021-03-12 14:26:23] — nihilazo wants to not be working with arduino and instead with a better platform, but is working with existing arduino-based hardware (atmega32u4) [2021-03-12 14:28:06] → astrid joined (~xmc@unaffiliated/xmc) [2021-03-12 14:28:22] i like the 32u4 [2021-03-12 14:28:44] i put my (now abandoned work) 32u4 forth kernel in the boot sector [2021-03-12 14:28:54] just keep in mind that Arduino is a board platform, whereas the chips are Atmel AVR [2021-03-12 14:28:57] really for a 32u4 you need to have a tethered forth [2021-03-12 14:29:01] well, the 32u4 is fine [2021-03-12 14:29:04] but the arduino pro micro is terrible [2021-03-12 14:29:29] it's the main board that custom keyboard people use and they're so bad, the USB connectors break all the time, the bootloader is half broken [2021-03-12 14:32:48] nihilazo: instead of trying to call the C functions that implement HID, considered using one of those implementations as a reference to translate the logic (minus calling convention stuff) to AVR assembly and then implementing CODE words instead? [2021-03-12 14:36:17] AVR assembly also scares me [2021-03-12 14:36:19] lol [2021-03-12 14:36:22] what i would have done :) [2021-03-12 14:36:28] avr assembly is actually really really easy [2021-03-12 14:36:43] where is AVR relative to 6502 [2021-03-12 14:36:53] that's the only assembly I've ever remotely been able to grok and even then I'm not great [2021-03-12 14:36:57] i think it's closer to 8051 isn't it? [2021-03-12 14:37:00] much simpler [2021-03-12 14:37:03] to code i mean [2021-03-12 14:37:19] avr asm is easier than both imho [2021-03-12 14:37:47] and i used to most 6502 opcodes by heart and i hve written my own avr and 8051 assemblers [2021-03-12 14:38:31] implementing USB in AVR asm would certainly be...interesting [2021-03-12 14:40:27] as in, probably wayy too much learning for me [2021-03-12 14:40:42] tbh I should probably stick to using whatever language has the most exising libraries because I'm dumb [2021-03-12 14:43:24] but I like the idea of using forth [2021-03-12 14:46:27] nihilazo: no actually, its not that difficult [2021-03-12 14:47:04] seems like the popular choice is, https://github.com/obdev/v-usb with the meat of the driver @ https://github.com/obdev/v-usb/blob/master/usbdrv/usbdrvasm.S [2021-03-12 14:47:12] you underestimate how dumb I am lol mark4 [2021-03-12 14:47:37] LUFA also seems like a popular option for USB on AVRs [2021-03-12 14:47:39] https://github.com/abcminiuser/lufa/ [2021-03-12 14:47:47] but idk how any of this works with forth [2021-03-12 14:48:09] you over estimate how smart i am lol [2021-03-12 14:49:19] I doubt it [2021-03-12 14:49:31] I mean, you're smarter than me for sure at least in terms of technical knowledge [2021-03-12 14:49:45] knowledge does not imply intelligence [2021-03-12 14:49:46] smart and dumb are useless words really, because people are good at different things [2021-03-12 14:50:10] but in terms of technical ability and knowledge, I am not knowledgable nor really skilled, I hack out bad software and it mostly kinda works [2021-03-12 14:50:21] if it works, it is good software [2021-03-12 14:50:34] marginally good [2021-03-12 14:50:40] that can become asymptotically good [2021-03-12 14:53:14] I guess? idk [2021-03-12 14:53:20] I doubt a USB stack I wrote would ever work though [2021-03-12 14:53:58] thats why we debug code :) [2021-03-12 14:54:33] true [2021-03-12 14:54:47] would be a larger project than I was hoping for this to be if I had to do more stuff myself. But it would be interesting [2021-03-12 15:00:12] maybe I should do it for the sake of all the things I'd learn [2021-03-12 15:00:22] and then I can always fall back on the existing firmware if mine sucks [2021-03-12 15:02:36] we do these things, not because they are easy [2021-03-12 15:05:28] for me it's "not because they are easy, but because on a whim once i decided to do it and now I'm trapped" lol [2021-03-12 15:07:06] well... decide again and trap yourself inside forth :) [2021-03-12 15:08:09] ⇐ gravicappa quit (~gravicapp@h62-133-183-196.dyn.bashtel.ru): Ping timeout: 246 seconds [2021-03-12 15:09:01] it's not a bad place to be tbh [2021-03-12 15:09:06] maybe USB is a bad place to be, dunno [2021-03-12 15:10:28] 1) download the USB spec. [2021-03-12 15:10:42] 2) spend a lot of tyine crying over "whiskey tango foxtrot!" [2021-03-12 15:11:12] the usb standard is NOT easy to implement. its very difficult for coders but it was not supposed to be easy for anyone except users [2021-03-12 15:11:17] imho that was a design flaw [2021-03-12 15:11:21] 3) learn a bunch but then eventually abandon it and go back to using prebuilt firmwares [2021-03-12 15:11:33] there is no real need for USB which is just a freeking serial interface to be THAT freeking complex [2021-03-12 15:11:37] custom keyboard folks smh, always using prebuilt firmwares [2021-03-12 15:12:01] they customise the hardware as much as they want but then literally only ever use one, bad, firmware [2021-03-12 15:12:11] (except in rare cases) [2021-03-12 15:12:33] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.38.135.246): Ping timeout: 264 seconds [2021-03-12 15:13:51] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.38.105.28) [2021-03-12 15:19:10] nihilazo: what's your end goal for a project like that? keyboard firmware for personal use? [2021-03-12 15:21:30] yeah [2021-03-12 15:22:15] keyboard firmware for personal use, that can maybe do some crap that is niche as hell for a normal keyboard firmware (like "hardware" (as in, in the keyboard not the PC) support for a one-handed chording layout) [2021-03-12 15:24:02] if USB is intimidating and you don't really care much about which bus you send your input over, then you could add a bit of extra hardware to lessen the software burden - ie. use UART, adjust I/O levels for RS-232 (or 5V TTL with connection to a serial-to-USB adapter) to host [2021-03-12 15:24:37] well I'm building this for an existing keyboard [2021-03-12 15:24:43] is the thing [2021-03-12 15:24:58] and I don't really have much ability to make hardware modifications [2021-03-12 15:25:03] (I built it, but with PCBs etc from a kit) [2021-03-12 15:29:21] it's an AVR based keyboard though? [2021-03-12 15:31:32] ⇐ elioat quit (~elioat@98.2.227.87): Quit: elioat [2021-03-12 15:32:07] yeah, it's literally got arduino pro micros o it [2021-03-12 15:32:21] https://github.com/foostan/crkbd one of these [2021-03-12 15:32:29] atmega32u4 [2021-03-12 15:33:00] ⇐ Rakko quit (~Rakko@071-082-226-018.res.spectrum.com): Ping timeout: 246 seconds [2021-03-12 15:33:18] → elioat joined (~elioat@98.2.227.87) [2021-03-12 15:33:44] → Rakko joined (~Rakko@071-082-226-018.res.spectrum.com) [2021-03-12 15:33:52] nice form [2021-03-12 15:34:29] it's a really nice keyboard, other than running qmk which is a firmware I'm not a fan of [2021-03-12 15:39:55] I mean, qmk works but it's a pain to work with [2021-03-12 15:46:49] ⇐ elioat quit (~elioat@98.2.227.87): Quit: elioat [2021-03-12 15:51:12] ⇐ jess quit (jess@freenode/staff/jess): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-12 15:51:40] → j joined (jess@freenode/staff/jess) [2021-03-12 15:55:16] ⇐ j quit (jess@freenode/staff/jess): Quit: K-Lined [2021-03-12 16:06:38] ⇐ cmtptr quit (~corey@unaffiliated/cmtptr): Read error: Connection reset by peer [2021-03-12 16:07:27] → cmtptr joined (~corey@unaffiliated/cmtptr) [2021-03-12 16:17:30] ⇐ Rakko quit (~Rakko@071-082-226-018.res.spectrum.com): Ping timeout: 256 seconds [2021-03-12 17:01:47] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.38.105.28): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-12 17:04:33] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.38.105.28) [2021-03-12 17:16:24] → Zarutian_HTC joined (~bj@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) [2021-03-12 17:19:31] ⇐ tech_exorcist quit (txrcst@gateway/shell/hashbang/x-jgertzsdgqqcbskk): Quit: tech_exorcist [2021-03-12 17:58:25] → j joined (jess@freenode/staff/jess) [2021-03-12 18:03:13] * j → jess [2021-03-12 18:45:27] → jedb_ joined (~jedb@185.204.1.181) [2021-03-12 18:46:08] → spoofer joined (~spoofer@64.185.119.226) [2021-03-12 18:49:28] ⇐ jedb__ quit (~jedb@181.215.46.112): Ping timeout: 276 seconds [2021-03-12 19:13:11] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.38.105.28): Read error: Connection reset by peer [2021-03-12 19:17:21] → f-a joined (~f-a@151.38.152.174) [2021-03-12 19:27:30] ⇐ lispmacs quit (~user@fsf/member/lispmacs): Remote host closed the connection [2021-03-12 19:40:09] ⇐ Zarutian_HTC quit (~bj@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is): Read error: Connection reset by peer [2021-03-12 19:40:28] → Zarutian_HTC joined (~bj@173-133-17-89.fiber.hringdu.is) [2021-03-12 20:36:06] is there somewhere an nacl/libsodium pure forth implenentation that does not call out to c code? [2021-03-12 20:38:33] I could hand translate the wasm version I suppose [2021-03-12 20:42:29] why? well I want to run it ontop of my fcpu-32 or -16 fantasy comp (that kind of vm) which I might implement both in software emulation and through ben eather style breadboard comp [2021-03-12 20:45:08] x4 does not use any c code [2021-03-12 20:45:16] other than using linux system calls [2021-03-12 20:45:26] it treats linux as its BIOS [2021-03-12 20:47:44] and you got nacl/libsodium impl? [2021-03-12 20:53:09] ⇐ f-a quit (~f-a@151.38.152.174): Quit: leaving [2021-03-12 20:59:24] — Zarutian_HTC finds https://github.com/jfindlay/pure_pynacl/blob/master/pure_pynacl/tweetnacl.py and supposes he cauld translate that [2021-03-12 21:49:15] → boru` joined (~boru@unaffiliated/boru) [2021-03-12 21:49:18] ⇐ boru quit (~boru@unaffiliated/boru): Disconnected by services [2021-03-12 21:49:21] * boru` → boru [2021-03-12 21:54:34] → really2 joined (~justafrie@107.152.102.135) [2021-03-12 21:58:03] → lispmacs joined (~user@fsf/member/lispmacs) [2021-03-12 22:31:45] ⇐ sts-q quit (~sts-q@91.200.108.176): Ping timeout: 264 seconds [2021-03-12 22:43:58] → sts-q joined (~sts-q@91.200.108.161) [2021-03-12 22:44:41] no idea what those are lol [2021-03-12 22:59:47] → Rakko joined (~Rakko@035-130-091-027.biz.spectrum.com) [2021-03-12 23:04:48] ⇐ Rakko quit (~Rakko@035-130-091-027.biz.spectrum.com): Quit: Leaving [2021-03-12 23:53:07] ⇐ really2 quit (~justafrie@107.152.102.135): Ping timeout: 256 seconds [2021-03-12 23:54:01] → gravicappa joined (~gravicapp@h62-133-183-196.dyn.bashtel.ru)