00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.12.05 00:46:27 neuro_sys: thanks 01:04:58 --- quit: iyzsong (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:05:36 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 01:31:02 owner of a lonely heart I was meant to say 01:31:05 * veltas facepalms 01:31:49 Can you please change your garbage collection terminology to conform with bad prog rock references 02:15:51 --- join: hosewiejacke2 joined #forth 02:46:17 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 02:50:27 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:09:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 03:12:22 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 03:25:58 --- quit: hosewiejacke2 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:57:47 --- quit: crest (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:57:53 --- quit: heredoc (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 03:57:54 --- join: crest joined #forth 04:00:12 --- join: heredoc joined #forth 04:08:45 --- join: hosewiejacke2 joined #forth 04:27:40 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 04:34:35 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 04:41:09 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 04:43:21 --- quit: hosewiejacke2 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 04:52:18 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 04:53:11 --- join: hosewiejacke2 joined #forth 04:53:46 --- quit: hosewiejacke2 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:11:10 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 05:29:02 tangentstorm: This is the video I mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvrE2ZGe-rs 05:44:42 --- join: proteusguy joined #forth 05:51:36 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 05:58:17 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 06:34:02 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 07:11:48 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 07:22:08 --- join: Gromboli joined #forth 08:09:25 Do you have any other historically fundamental programming related books in mind similar to these? https://gist.github.com/neuro-sys/b749b638c771b69c8527027b4410dafb 08:21:38 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:52:13 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 09:45:51 --- join: hosewiejacke2 joined #forth 09:59:47 neuro_sys: Starting FORTH is good for beginners learning Forth in my opinion, there is also "Forth programmer's handbook" 10:01:03 Maybe have a look at http://www.forth.org/tutorials.html but I suppose you want our opinions? I can't give a good 'historical' opinion because I've only known Forth for a year 10:02:31 I probably wouldn't recommend "Forth programmer's handbook" for beginners... 10:02:34 Can I ask what the goal is with this list? 10:03:05 It's good after reading starting forth, I think that's the historical intention anyway 10:03:50 I didn't mean to say it is for beginners, I see how what I wrote reads that way 10:04:46 No problem man :) 10:05:27 I know some people really dislike starting forth, they think it is either way too slow or too condescending 10:06:06 I personally enjoyed reading it, it is slow but slow is fine when you're being blasted by such an intense euphoric experience as learning forth the first time 10:07:21 And slow is also fine when your language is highly factored, because you can get through more real code when it's all shorter :P 10:08:40 There's also Thinking FORTH, also by Leo Brodie (Starting FORTH) 10:09:49 I think there's even a free PDF for this one. 10:10:21 There is a recreated LaTeX PDF rendered online, made by the community of people that apparently appreciated it 10:10:57 I think that's a good sign 10:11:25 I really like the way the scanned PDF of Starting FORTH looks, typewriter + inked drawings. 10:11:53 I know someone who has a copy of the original from back in the day, I wonder if it's worth anything to the right buyer 10:15:37 I think my goal with the list was that it would contain one book for each language and/or subject that historically comes before the similar books that was later published, and may be considered "seminal". 10:15:44 Of course it's subjective, so I was wondering your opinions. 10:15:53 Starting Forth (or Thinking Forth) is good candidate. 10:16:06 But after reading POL, I decided that I like that one better. 10:16:49 It fits better in that list, even though Starting FORTH is a better read IMO 10:17:40 Yes, I've found the Starting Forth as the best introductory material. Forth Programmer's Handbook was more down to the point and more concrete. 10:17:56 I haven't finished the latter though (nor Thinking Forth). 10:18:00 POL? Problem Oriented Language? 10:18:21 dzho: Yes, I liked that one personally, and made a lot of reasoning behind Forth clear. 10:18:31 http://www.forth.org/KittPeakForthPrimer.pdf 10:18:32 ok, thanks 10:18:42 I saw it on the FIG list there just wanted to be sure 10:18:52 veltas: Awesome! 10:19:16 "PROPERTY OF THE US ARMY" 10:19:25 You just know it's going to be good 10:19:47 I can't remember if it was my first book about Forthlikes but RG Loeliger's Threaded Interpreted Languages was a thing I read very early on 10:19:59 Did the army use Forth? 10:20:19 somewhere probably but I wouldn't know 10:20:23 Is there a language called "forthtran"? 10:20:30 What would it be like 10:21:22 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 10:21:24 Apparently it is http://computer-programming-forum.com/22-forth/0ab248beb55042d7.htm 10:21:58 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 10:22:17 Somebody made the same pun on a scheme IRC channel in October this year 10:22:19 Freaky 10:22:42 Okay the joke is that forthtran is fortran with a lisp 10:28:20 neuro_sys: https://github.com/Veltas/aoc20 10:28:36 I did day 1 today, and spent at least an hour playing with 1-2.fs and refactoring it 10:30:45 Nice, I'll check 11:11:17 --- quit: hosewiejacke2 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 11:25:51 "a 600 foot tape is sufficient" 11:57:56 crc, neuro_sys: https://ls-a.xyz/advent/2020/bigboy.html 12:02:41 veltas: thanks; I've marked that for later review. I'll need to build some retro instances with larger memory before I can try running my solutions against them. 12:14:06 veltas: That looks fun, I'll have a go at it. 12:36:26 I know my day 1 part 2 will not work with the big boy solution because it's a dumb loop 12:37:06 --- quit: jimt[m] (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:37:15 --- quit: siraben (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 13:04:06 --- join: jimt[m] joined #forth 13:05:26 --- join: siraben joined #forth 13:16:46 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 14:42:16 https://i.imgur.com/dvu7VNx.jpg 15:06:52 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 15:07:24 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 15:09:58 What die is it? GA? 15:16:00 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 15:16:27 veltas: ##adventofcode and ##adventofcode-spoilers are pretty active 15:24:55 http://forth.works/examples/advent-of-code-2020-day-5.retro.html today's solutions in retro 15:25:53 Nice. Day 5 was quite simple. 15:26:03 There's a small typo in there: "bnary" 15:26:14 yeah, I just finally got around to looking at it 15:26:34 Also "bringng" 15:26:44 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:27:28 Hmm, that's a good find that the boarding passes correspond to binary values. 15:27:46 Or it a known property of binary pratitioning? 15:30:26 neuro_sys: thanks, those will be corrected when the examples next update in a couple of hours 15:31:31 I suspect it's a property of binary partitioning, but haven't dealt with this before, so I'm not certain. 15:34:00 So you came up just thinking about it? 15:34:25 yes 15:35:04 I didn't actually expect it to work, but it did for the test values, so I went with it 15:40:11 X-Scale: thanks 15:53:26 The "bigboy" inputs are a bit more like the inputs I expected, to force you to actually think about how to solve it efficiently 15:56:28 In Samuel Falvo's video, he re-defines some words in the same source file. I think I need to re-read the rules how the words are searched. It seems like namespacing is not necessarily needed. 15:59:33 words are searched from newest to oldest 15:59:55 reusing a name is allowed, and does not alter code using the earlier definition 16:01:50 Amazing, I missed this important fact. 16:02:41 It seems like it eliminates the need for namespacing as I previously thought. 16:03:25 I suppose it does generally make namespacing unnecessary 16:03:36 Also looked into `here`, `,` and `allot`, it seems like no need to use `allocate` either. That way the memory management is simpler yet more restrictive I guess. 16:04:01 Absolutely no need to use allocate 16:04:24 Did you see my forth solutions to day 1? :P 16:05:29 A heap with all its poor determinism and fragmentation is not something you should dirty normal forth programs with 16:05:57 But it's nice to have anyway sometimes 16:08:18 Someone needs to write a modern forth tutorial neuro_sys, you are making all the same revelations I had to make a year ago 16:10:11 The first line in your day1 has [undefined], I think that's a way to execute that line which contains an if word without actually defining a word? 16:13:30 neuro_sys: It's kind of like #ifndef 16:13:40 Ah no, just read what [undefined] again. Yeah. 16:14:37 Me talking about forth early on and someone says "yeah... so locals and forth... er... hahaha generally a red flag." http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/forth/20.02.23 16:15:44 Now I am that guy 16:15:55 That proteusguy 16:16:07 Haha 16:16:48 I could remove those conditional lines because they are just there to support standard forths 16:16:55 I am defining stuff that gforth comes with 16:16:58 basically 16:17:18 I prefer working with stdin rather than opening a named file 16:18:43 I 'get' forth state now but at the time apparently it made my 'head hurt', and that seemed to attract me to the language more for some reason...? 16:19:09 I think it's good use of time to write up a tutorial that specifically addresses the things that should be unlearned first by folk like me. Even though these things are written everywhere, it takes a while to figure out the why. 16:38:06 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 16:57:01 Just practicing. :) veltas: https://github.com/Veltas/aoc20/compare/master...neuro-sys:patch-1 17:03:50 neuro_sys: If I want to check for end I probably would have rewritten to be a do/+loop and then just put the error message at the end of the loop 17:04:29 I'm sure it's no surprise to you I would rather have shorter code than validate the input, a saner place to start would not be running EVALUATE on every line! 17:05:39 https://archive.org/details/forthdimension 17:08:00 neuro_sys: If you're interested by what I've written check out the way I handle arrays and looping in 1-2.fs 17:35:41 --- join: presiden joined #forth 18:14:01 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:14:04 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:14:07 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:38:24 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 18:50:57 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 18:54:52 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 19:27:24 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 19:28:28 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 19:28:48 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Client Quit) 20:45:38 --- quit: sts-q (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 20:52:27 --- join: sts-q joined #forth 21:08:59 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 21:16:05 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 21:32:44 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 21:47:39 --- quit: Gromboli (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:08:16 --- join: hosewiejacke2 joined #forth 22:08:26 --- quit: hosewiejacke2 (Client Quit) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.12.05