00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.11.28 00:14:35 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 00:33:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 00:36:22 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 00:59:17 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 01:03:27 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 01:03:46 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 01:08:49 Real risk of it turning out the standard library is impossible to implement with strong typing :P 01:47:59 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 01:57:40 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:12:28 --- join: proteusguy joined #forth 02:14:02 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 02:14:02 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:52:36 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 02:57:10 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 03:02:47 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 03:06:34 --- join: dime joined #forth 03:09:39 --- quit: dime (Client Quit) 03:22:49 --- quit: dave0 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:03:24 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 04:07:30 "It's more important to conform, than to do it the best way you can" -- this is a statement I agree with sometimes, and sometimes I don't. It depends on context. 04:07:58 I think sometimes though it does feel like I am more on the "do it the best way you can" side than most people 04:09:22 Like the decision about whether to use C or one of the many other able embedded programming languages, do you conform to C or use something better? 04:10:50 I don't think there are that many other embedded programming languages ;) 04:11:28 There are a lot actually, that can sometimes be better than C, it depends 04:12:36 Would you mind giving an example? Asm, C and Forth are the only ones I can think of. 04:15:30 What's the c-killer everyone's always banging on about on hackernews? 04:16:12 It's not nim or rust I think... or is it? 04:16:27 Forth is an alternative to C, which you mentioned 04:16:38 People use embedded versions of Python and Lua 04:17:56 Oh yeah. Totaly forgot about these. I'm not that much on HN anymore. 04:19:55 hosewiejacke: zig 04:20:06 Look up zig I like it, not that I've used it 04:20:33 The only alternative language I've given any attention is Forth, and it's because Forth is interesting even if you don't get to use it for anything practical 04:20:48 And I don't think I can convince anyone at work to use any alternative to C 04:27:19 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 04:45:15 From nim website: "Modern concepts like zero-overhead iterators and compile-time evaluation of user-defined functions" 04:45:20 * veltas laughs in forth 04:46:18 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 04:55:36 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 05:35:34 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 05:58:01 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 06:02:38 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 06:23:06 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 06:23:37 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Remote host closed the connection) 06:23:52 --- join: hosewiejacke joined #forth 06:25:01 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 06:40:11 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 07:23:44 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 08:41:08 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 08:51:26 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 09:03:56 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 09:12:47 --- quit: lispmacs (Quit: must reboot... see you on the other side) 09:22:04 hosewiejacke: there's Zig 09:22:13 veltas: ^ 09:22:26 oops. someone already replied :p 09:23:59 C is very stable, has been proven in production, has a lot of tooling at this point for everything from memory safety to model/SMT checking, separation logic, static analysis and so on 09:24:09 Would be a lot of work to bring that to Zig 09:24:58 Even a formally verified C compiler exists, heh https://compcert.org/ 09:32:53 --- join: Gromboli joined #forth 09:37:37 --- join: lispmacs joined #forth 09:50:51 siraben: thanks. Yes, C has a lot of tooling; but no namespaces :p 10:17:28 I work in a role where the code matters and does a crucial job and we don't have any standards for verifying stuff, we use C out of general paranoia. It's well-founded paranoia to use something that's at least conventional and bullet proof in production, but it's not exactly as formal in all of embedded as your post implies 10:17:53 THere are lots of people in embedded who have flexibility to try this stuff out, the question is more about whether managers want to put their reputations/&c. on the line 10:18:20 And I respect e.g. my company's use of C, it makes perfect sense and C is completely fine. 10:21:04 I once asked a guy from automotive field what PL they use and he said (something along the lines): C, because it has to be compilable 20 years from now. 10:21:35 I wonder if that would be the case for Rust or Zig... 10:23:03 Before I worked in industry I assumed that everyone doing embedded on e.g. automation grade computers uses misra etc, I now know that very few people use stuff like that, mostly where it 'matters'. 10:24:02 Also I realise Misra has a bunch of dumb rules that probably makes it harder to write safe code, if you want safe code your process needs to be smarter than "use misra" or "use cert" 10:37:37 --- join: xek_ joined #forth 11:05:21 --- quit: hosewiejacke (Quit: Leaving) 12:31:18 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:37:30 --- quit: spoofer (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:39:24 --- join: spoofer joined #forth 13:50:39 there was a funny thing where they looked at the rate of bugs in one thing then looked at what happened in misra projects and it looked like it didnt actually eliminate many bugs 13:51:16 but maybe the two measures arent exactly equivalent 13:57:00 --- quit: tabemann (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 14:12:42 --- join: tabemann joined #forth 14:23:20 --- quit: wineroots (Remote host closed the connection) 15:26:45 --- quit: actuallybatman (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 16:00:02 --- quit: xek_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 16:11:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +v crc 16:51:02 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 17:10:34 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 18:07:24 --- quit: lispmacs (Remote host closed the connection) 18:15:26 --- join: lispmacs joined #forth 18:21:57 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:21:59 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:22:02 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:28:55 --- join: proteusguy joined #forth 19:42:15 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 20:02:08 --- quit: Gromboli (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:03:22 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 20:12:45 --- join: actuallybatman joined #forth 20:25:17 --- quit: actuallybatman (Quit: leaving) 20:25:49 --- quit: lispmacs (Remote host closed the connection) 20:31:12 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 20:36:05 --- join: actuallybatman joined #forth 20:48:03 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 20:53:37 --- quit: sts-q (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 21:04:56 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 21:05:42 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 21:06:39 --- join: sts-q joined #forth 21:11:10 --- join: wineroots joined #forth 21:21:36 --- quit: remexre (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 21:42:06 --- join: remexre joined #forth 22:11:30 veltas: yeah the formality varies, I have a friend who is using Coq and model checking for VLSI designs and C code for use in a solar car 22:27:34 --- join: lispmacs joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.11.28