00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.08.08 00:00:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 00:03:26 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 00:21:14 --- join: rpcope joined #forth 02:20:47 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 04:54:56 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 08:14:33 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:28:00 --- join: lisbeths joined #forth 09:28:38 I would like to read through jonesforth and recurisvely ask questions in this irc channel each time I come up with something I do not understand until I understand all of it 09:49:37 good luck 09:52:55 Thank you. I will not do this today but I will do it so long as that is okay to do in here. This way I never have to ask dumb forth questions ever again. 09:53:05 Or I might not do it today. 10:16:01 --- join: mark4 joined #forth 10:26:38 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 11:13:04 --- join: reepca joined #forth 11:25:16 lisbeths: understanding a forth system completly is a laudable goal 11:25:33 and jonesforth easier to understand than most 11:25:55 * crest feels guilty for never finishing his port of jonesforth to ppc32 11:44:29 i hate jones forth grrrr 11:44:33 x4 is better :P 11:45:15 and im currently working on a 64 bit verison that im going to call x64 11:45:22 changing from direct threaded to sub threaded 11:45:46 jonesforth is annoying, im positive he copied primitvies out of x4 (formerly isforth) 12:40:20 potentially you could run some code in jonesforth which causes you to gain new words which allow you to allocate @ and ! to 64 bit memory. maybe I'm wrong though. 12:58:47 mark has a few forths of his own, no need for him to deal with jonesforth 13:35:49 --- quit: lisbeths (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 13:36:08 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 14:42:27 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 14:54:18 jonesforth just annoys me for being well known while my forth which is at least 10 yeras older is only known in here lol 14:54:23 dammit LO 15:22:32 mark4: care to share a link to the source code? 15:23:13 imo jonesforth isn't know for being a great forth, but as an example of literate programming 15:24:51 there are a lot more "interesting" forth systems like mecrisp stellaris with its self hosting optimizing compiler 15:25:35 but its source code is a mixture of german, english, arm asm and quirky humor 15:32:38 to my 64 bit forth? its not on github yet, its still in its initial port stage 15:32:40 the original 32 bit forth is at github.com/mark4th there are 2 forths there, the x32 and the thumb2 versions both running under Linux 15:41:11 hey guys 15:43:42 mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut, Mecrisp-Stellaris zu verstehen 15:44:18 say what? 15:44:54 ich kann nur das Englisch im Code 15:45:56 that's my point - I can't understand Mecrisp-Stellaris's code aside from the English 15:46:21 ich muss mein Deutsch verbessern 15:47:57 on another note 15:48:12 I'm spending too much time watching my blinkie on the F407 15:48:41 it keeps going in circles with four different-colored LEDs, while constantly changing its rate of going around 16:22:24 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 16:26:52 tabemann: if you need translations of the mecrisp comments from german to english feel free to ask 16:27:47 but some of comments and symbol names aren't all that helpful to native speakers 16:33:44 --- join: cnidario joined #forth 17:00:09 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:18:24 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 17:27:00 --- quit: cnidario (Remote host closed the connection) 17:44:36 --- join: lisbeths joined #forth 18:12:28 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 18:37:08 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 18:53:02 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:53:05 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:53:07 --- nick: boru` -> boru 19:01:22 so in line 306 of jonesforth what is .macro 19:01:36 is that like an assemble-time macro? 19:02:24 starts with a dot so I presume it is an assembler directive 19:02:46 in this case of defining an assembler macro 19:02:50 I assume it is the assembler equivalent of a c macro 19:03:25 jebb pretty much a textual macro 19:03:37 then what is lodsl 19:03:50 (not like Scheme 'hygenic' macro) 19:04:01 lisbeths: you can find more about the assembler's docs 19:04:18 I need to understand jonesforth pls pls pls pls pls. 19:05:00 When I go to #assembler they just give me the intel x86 manual which is dense and impossible to understand 19:08:04 * Zarutian_HTC looks at https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/lods:lodsb:lodsw:lodsd:lodsq 19:08:40 wtf x86! 19:09:21 I did a control f and did not find lodsl on there 19:10:29 I think it might be LOaD String Long but not sure 19:11:06 or LOaD String Literal 19:11:11 lisbeths: please provide a link to the line of jonesforth you're stuck at 19:12:56 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 19:13:02 It's in my terminal I don't know if it exists anywhere on the internet. It's line 307 but I had just wondered what loadsl means. I had assumed it meant stack l so I was way wrong. 19:14:17 grep through the code and find if it's a macro if it's not an instruction 19:16:54 no its an assembler instruction 19:17:04 I just don't know where it get sthe string literal from and where it saves it to 19:19:05 what does the full line saym 19:19:12 say?* 19:20:05 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/40171684/whats-the-difference-between-lodsl-and-movl-esi-eax-addl-4-esi 19:21:28 the line says 19:21:34 tab character lodsl newline 19:26:11 --- join: tangentstorm joined #forth 19:31:43 lodsl and lodsd should be the same instruction iirc 19:34:54 iirc, gas uses different names for these than the intel manuals 19:36:46 stupid at&t vs intel wars 19:38:34 * crc is *very* rusty on his x86 assembly these days 19:39:49 isnt x86 going to be eol-ed/deprecated in two decades or so? 19:39:58 one can only hope 19:47:59 what I recall regarding isa design is that you do not want hardwired cisc but, if it is required code densuty wise, dynamically updateable micro code on byte code basis. 19:56:04 I only ever needed to deal with a small subset of the x86 instructions 19:57:57 how small a subset? 20:04:50 less than 50 are needed to implement retro's vm (counting each encoding as a unique instruction) 20:04:55 --- quit: lisbeths (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 20:07:30 a quick counting reveals 38: http://forth.works/share/7db8e8608fb1572a0d9ac07b615c3c28 20:08:39 that reminds me. Do you use double-printing-quine trick when making the c include file with the retro image? 20:08:48 as taken from a quick scan of https://github.com/crcx/impexus 20:10:28 no tricks involved, I use a program to convert the retro image into C when building 20:11:38 either http://forth.works/examples/retro-embedimage.retro.html or http://forth.works/live/tools/embedimage.c 20:12:36 ah, I see 20:14:18 how does the trick work? 20:15:02 perhaps I am wierd but I would like to release my vm+image as single .c file with compile instruction in a comment near the top of the file 20:17:02 a double printing quine prints itself in two ways. Once as an the text and inside that as data literal 20:17:07 I provide this on http://forth.works : http://forth.works/retro-unix.c 20:18:10 generated daily by a cron job, using http://forth.works/examples/amalgamate.retro.html 20:18:47 I should have it insert the compilation instructions though; I hadn't thought of doing that... 20:19:23 neat 20:21:25 but the nice thing about doing the double-printing-quine way is that one could, from inside the program running on the vm, emitt a new .c with the current contents of the memory 20:22:09 of the vm. 20:24:45 * crc has added build instructions in the generated amalgamation 20:25:38 that is something I'll experiment with when I return to working on the retro-compiler, thanks 20:27:55 also, this means that inside retro you can have the option of reconfigure the vm constants for the next incarnation 20:48:53 yes, this would potentially make the compiler a lot more useful :) 20:49:34 crc what are you working on now? 20:50:12 mark4: still working on retro 20:50:52 when I return to working on the retro-compile <-- whats the difference lol 20:51:59 the current retro-compiler only works on systems using ELF binaries, I'd like to have more options in the future 20:52:23 stand alone? windows PE ? 20:53:14 current projects are work on an implementation of my vm in apples swift language, and an experimental vm with support for simple multitasking 20:53:26 windows is one, also macos 20:54:15 i could never develop for windows or macos, i would not want to learn the APIs on either platform lol 20:55:05 macos console stuff is mostly posix, desktop ui stuff is quite different 20:55:26 yea its a unix like os i guess 20:56:12 windows I kind of have to tolerate at work, so I may as well be able to use my language on it 20:56:29 you do windows dev at work? 20:56:58 not much, but on occasion 20:57:36 i would do it if i was ever asked but i would tell them up front i would be doing that windows dev in linux under wine :) 20:57:49 and learning it from the ground up 20:58:12 I develop the order management system we use, which is a web based thing running on a Linux server 20:58:53 yea thats anohter thing i would have extreme difficulty with, web devel :) 20:58:59 we have to use windows for some programs (I don't have control over this) 20:59:17 but i always tell my employers "Not in my job description" is not in my job description 20:59:42 it's not that bad. All processing is done on the server, with a bit of HTML to make it look reasonable for the users 21:00:41 There's a few iOS devices that serve as print servers for shipping labels 21:01:09 what product is shipped? 21:01:36 (a growing amount of the server side code is written in retro; the original prototype was python and php) 21:01:47 we sell electrical supplies 21:01:49 they LET you do it in retro? 21:01:50 ! 21:02:00 or you just snuc it in? 21:02:01 for this, yes :) 21:02:34 I was asked to write something for this as the enterprise tool we were using sucked 21:03:01 maybe they would let you sell that software to other corporations? 21:03:06 no limits were placed on me for the languages or technologies used 21:03:30 usually you are told "do this in this way" 21:03:35 hard to say, we haven't discussed that 21:03:38 being told "do this" leaves wiggle room :) 21:03:54 * crc is the only progammer in the company 21:04:23 that can leave wiggle room too :) 21:04:33 nobody else understand what you do so cannot direct you HOW you do it 21:05:04 I generally get asked to write some small tools, *how* they are written doesn't matter as long as they do the needed tasks 21:05:24 hope they pay you well to do your hobby :) 21:06:13 i just bought an updated license for IDA Pro and the debugger is literally saving me from the HELL of having to use GDB 21:06:24 well sort of, it uses gdb internally but the interface is USABLE 21:06:26 ~$20/hour, plus overtime (which is most of it, as I work 40 hour weeks, so a lot of the coding gets done in the evening after work) 21:06:32 no other gdb interface is even close to usable 21:06:52 they are not paying you enough 21:07:04 i have 50 an hour and 25 of that is not even taxable 21:07:06 ever 21:07:27 however, i have to suffer developing on a microchip product using microchip tools 21:08:07 you should talk to my agency, they might be able to find you better paying work near you 21:08:41 I'm not a contractor though, just a standard employee who also does a bit of coding when I'm able (due to the longstanding RSI issues) 21:08:54 yea 21:17:44 assuming I'm eventually able to deal with the rsi, I'll be interested to do more computer work. Now's not a good time for that though, when I frequesntl have long periods where the pain is too much to type more than a few words. 21:18:58 how much will it cost to get that sorted 21:19:00 ? 21:23:02 crc: you tried submerging your arms in warm water and use one of those waterproof vibro motors (or whatever they are called) for relief? 21:23:27 Potentially? ~13k (my insurance dedeuctable), excluding the fact that I wouldn't be able to work for 2-6 months depending on how I heal after the surgery 21:23:32 if it hurts too much to type more than a few words stop after one word 21:23:35 or sooner 21:23:47 Zarutian_HTC: no, I've not heard of that 21:24:01 the idea is that the whole hand tub vibrates like a subwoofer during dubstep 21:25:28 also try peppermint oil on the areas that are hurting, its long been known to help with pain and it smells awesome :) 21:25:42 and it repells spiders :P 21:26:07 Zarutian_HTC: I'll look into that 21:27:44 mark4: I use peppermint oil on my beard, haven't noticed any improvement to the pain in my hands (I rub in on my hands before applying to the beard) as a result, but it does smell nice 21:27:57 the idea is massages like those massage chairs or devices but instead of one localized spot it goes the whole arm length 21:28:18 oh yea its also anti bacterial and anti viral too 21:28:21 awesome stuff 21:30:37 as massages do, it stimulates bloodflow and possibly lymphfluid flow and production of ?tendion lubricating fluid?. 21:35:20 one local programmer I know recommends slathering your hands and possibly forearms with aloe vera gel but I do not know about that 21:39:35 one other trick he recommends is to fold a towel underneath your keyboard to minimize impact injury from typing 21:40:48 (absorbs a bit of the pushing down key energy) 21:43:13 aloe vera: can't say I've noticed anything from that ( I use that on sunburns); but will try the towel idea 22:07:51 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 22:34:50 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 22:50:23 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 22:59:27 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 23:00:29 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 23:27:34 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.08.08