00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.08.02 03:08:42 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 05:53:42 we do not need socialized medicine 05:54:54 sorry that you have diabetes. i don't have diabetes, and i can get a well-paying job to take care of any medical issues i do have. it is theft to use threat of violence to coerce me to pay for yours 05:56:40 i also have a license to drive so that i can commute and i don't have a family. i guess these are the tradeoffs we make in life 07:20:46 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:07:22 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 09:34:05 I won't argue the point, other than to note that we do have socialized medince already, just not for everyone. (CHIP, Medicare, and Medicaid) 10:25:49 --- quit: deesix (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 10:25:51 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 10:32:01 --- join: deesix joined #forth 10:32:20 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 12:07:51 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 12:20:46 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 12:32:35 --- quit: spoofer (Quit: leaving) 12:38:46 --- join: spoofer joined #forth 12:42:14 --- quit: spoofer (Client Quit) 12:42:25 --- join: spoofer joined #forth 13:23:46 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:23:57 $aaaabbbb split join h. BBBBAAAA ok <-- is that a bug? 13:23:58 ! 13:24:00 lol 13:25:48 thats in x4, i think thats a bug thats been there for a long time :) 13:38:18 i finally got usart1 on a stm32f103 working with dma 13:38:23 well at least on direction 13:38:26 *one 13:39:20 but sending at 2Mbaud is useful on its own 13:53:54 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 14:07:43 --- quit: `presiden (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 14:09:54 --- join: `presiden joined #forth 15:00:34 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 15:30:12 --- join: gasconheart joined #forth 15:50:06 --- quit: `presiden (Quit: WeeChat 2.9-dev) 16:30:23 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 16:33:24 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 18:01:59 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:02:01 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:02:04 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:18:55 :) 18:19:00 grats on the stm dma 18:37:43 zhey 18:37:59 *hey 18:39:31 trying to convert my 32bit x4 into 64 bit x64. finally got it all to assemble and the listing file is huge but the resultant linked binary is like 400 bytes in size 18:39:41 and the linker bitches about not being able to find the origin symbol 18:39:47 * tabemann really wishes matthias would relicense mecrisp-stellaris as BSD or MIT 18:40:21 if i link without using the custom linker script that works fine for the 32 bit forth i get all my missing sections but it STILL cant find origin 18:40:30 yet readelf -a | grep origin finds that global 18:40:31 dafq 18:43:03 weird 18:47:47 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 18:55:37 cmdptr: socialized medicine is about distributing the costs of healthcare across society, because in very many cases the individual cannot afford the costs healthcare, but everyone can afford healthcare when the costs are distributed across society 18:55:53 anyways, I'm not convinced by such libertarianoid arguments 18:56:15 *costs of healthcare 18:57:29 tabemann, would you support an opt-in communal health care system? 18:59:36 no, because then it would concentrate the costs to those who do need at the present, ultimately making it unaffortable, while fucking over those who shortsightedly don't opt in thinking they won't get sick or injured, and then they do 18:59:37 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:59:40 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:59:42 --- nick: boru` -> boru 19:00:11 so your utopia only works if you take by force 19:00:20 fuck you 19:00:28 it's no different than paying for upkeep of the roads 19:00:57 do you suggest that you not have to pay for taxes that support road repairs? 19:03:21 i do have to because shitheads like you have voted to remove my ability to choose 19:04:43 here is a question - do you believe you have a right to not pay taxes to support the police and military - I ask because these are the sorts of things that libertarian types seem to believe are the only legitimate functions of the state 19:04:45 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 19:05:23 i never said i was libertarian 19:05:33 your reasoning sounds like that of one 19:05:49 what i said was fuck you for wanting to steal what i've earned 19:05:56 and i sincerely mean it 19:06:42 so then you should expect to, if you aren't willing to contribute, when you do get sick or injured down the line, to be royally fucked over 19:07:08 the problem is that people are shortsighted 19:07:12 this is not a political dispute. when you start talking that way, they are fighting words 19:07:23 i do contribute, asshole 19:07:47 and then i'm compensated in the form of monetary payment and benefits 19:09:08 and now i'm going to bed. goodnight! 19:11:50 you have no right to demand that i give my money to you when you wont go out and work to earn your own. thats the ENTIRE purpose of socialism 19:12:17 i get to chose where the money I earned goes not my government 19:13:50 going to work, earning a living, paying taxes IS contributing to society. when the government starts taking money in taxes from those who are earning it simply to give it to people who refuse to work the government has stepped outside the bounds of their delegated authority 19:14:24 i spent seven fucking years as an unemployment statistic and not ONCE did i steal or take money from my government 19:14:25 not once 19:14:47 my normal rate of pay prior to that was $50+ an hour 19:14:59 and after eight years im back there 19:15:23 in the first 7 years i had THREE very short term jobs that were burger flipping wages 19:16:31 my point is this - there is a reason why you can't opt out of paying taxes - and at the same time healthcare is exactly the kind of thing best supported via taxes 19:16:59 so if you aren't willing to pay for taxes for healthcare, then you imply that you shouldn't have to pay for taxes to support roads, the police, etc. 19:17:43 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 19:17:53 the people who are like "taxes are theft" to me remind me of the rich people who kid their money in offshore accounts, while the rest of us pay our share 19:18:21 *who hide 19:20:33 let's take this logic a bit further 19:20:38 let's say you have no kids 19:20:47 but public schools are publicly funded 19:20:55 so are public schools theft? 19:21:14 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 19:21:28 hey proteus-guy, Zarutian_HTC 19:24:17 hello tabemann 19:24:38 even if you have kids, public schools are theft. 19:26:20 to me the logic with public schools is simply that it is in society's interest that children are educated - without public schools then you'd end up with children not getting educated inevitably, and that would not be in society's interest 19:29:23 --- quit: irsol (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:29:56 the problem with public schools in reality is not that they are socialized but that they are not socialized enough - they are typically paid for by local property taxes, so poorer areas have worse public schools and richer areas have better public schools 19:29:58 --- quit: dzho (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:30:14 when what'd make sense is make them funded on a national level, to make them as even as possible 19:30:34 --- quit: spoofer (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:30:42 --- join: spoofer joined #forth 19:30:43 --- join: irsol joined #forth 19:32:20 --- join: dzho joined #forth 19:37:16 on another note 19:37:46 the license notice in zeptoforth takes up a ton of space - 956 bytes to be xact 19:41:54 what is zepto? 19:49:12 zepto is a SI prefix 19:49:39 10^-21 19:50:15 zeptoforth is named zeptoforth because micro, nano, pico, femto, and atto were already taken 19:51:07 even though zeptoforth isn't small at all in reality 19:53:49 the kernel for STM32L476 is 25144 bytes in size, and the full binary for STM32L476 is 106496 bytes in size 19:54:30 thats armv7a? 19:54:48 Cortex-M4 19:55:01 you could probably put T4 on there and trim a whole bunch of fat from it and reduce it in size 19:55:13 yes thats armv7-m which is thumb2 only 19:55:15 t4 is thumb2 19:55:30 yeah, it's all thumb-2 19:56:01 it could be smaller when all the forth is compiled if it had a peephole optimizer 19:56:15 whereas currently the only optimization it does is inlining 19:56:56 at the point it doesn't compare to mecrisp-stellaris RA yet 19:57:23 -rwxr-xr-x 1 cox cox 17548 Aug 2 22:56 t4k 19:57:25 thats the kernel 19:57:34 and some of that is linux specific 19:57:56 -rwxr-xr-x 1 cox cox 73790 Aug 2 22:56 t4 thats the extended but most of that wont be relevant to an embedded device 19:58:19 oh yea i COULD add an optimizer to t4 19:58:23 its sub threaded 19:58:38 the "full" binaries for zeptoforth contain stuff like multitasking and a disassembler 19:58:38 and i dont even have an assembler lol 19:58:52 i dont have an assembler or disassembler 19:58:56 they would be quite a bit smaller were there no disassembler 19:59:01 i think it has a decompiler tho 19:59:11 do you get the sources? 19:59:16 to the whole thing i mean 19:59:49 what do you mean? 20:00:19 yea i just found the github 20:01:22 not impressed with the almost complete and utter lack of anu comments in their sources 20:01:28 i wouldnt give them the time of day just for that 20:01:46 and adding multi tasking is trivial btw 20:02:01 the multitasking was easy 20:02:43 YOU wrot it? 20:02:50 yes 20:02:52 oooooh 20:03:14 you wrote an arm assembler in arm assembler? 20:03:27 i get pissy when i see asm sources with no comments lol 20:03:32 it's assembled with gas 20:03:40 aha 20:03:42 and the arm disassembler is written in forth 20:03:43 yea so is T4 20:04:04 and I apologize for the lack of asm comments 20:04:13 i need to write an arm assembler for t4 but t4 is 32 bits and im thinking of retiring all my 32 bit forths and only developing the 64 bit versions 20:04:19 :) 20:04:48 well when you write something like that you know every inch of it so the code is obvious for you 20:04:54 have you looked at t4 at all? 20:05:04 I haven't looked at t4 myself 20:05:50 what threading do you use? 20:05:57 SRT/NCI 20:06:12 oh yea i should have looked at your primitives doing a bx lr 20:06:15 thats enough to tell me 20:06:26 if next is a bx lr you must be srt :) 20:06:42 bx lr or pop {pc} 20:06:46 ya 20:06:56 neither of which are valid on aarch64 :/ 20:07:25 if I were going to target aarch64 I'd probably just port hashforth to it 20:07:46 as, by default, hashforth is a 64-bit forth 20:08:00 even though it can be scaled down to 32-bit or even 16-bit 20:08:01 https://github.com/mark4th/t4/blob/master/src/kernel/macros.s 20:08:21 check out my gnu as macros for t4 that allow me to lay down forth code and headers in different sections 20:08:25 code "blah", blah 20:08:27 ... 20:08:27 ... 20:08:33 and colon "blah" blah 20:08:37 ... 20:09:24 do you use hashed vocabularies? 20:10:05 I haven't bothered, because to me vocabulary lookup is not something that happens often (i.e. only when code is being compiled) 20:10:55 hashforth puts code and headers in different spaces 20:11:31 with zeptoforth I didn't want to commit certain amounts of space to each 20:11:41 when i wrote my dos 16 bit forth using A386 the assembler could hash the vocabularies at assemble time 20:12:06 and I wanted to write flash from low to high consistently, rather than in separate sections 20:12:09 with gas i have to link every word against the first thread of the voc and fix it at extend time :/ 20:12:11 one time fix 20:16:02 * tabemann could probably pare down the compiler section of the code by hardcoding instruction values rather than writing out routines to generate instructions based on parameters, when in many cases the parameters are always the same 20:16:21 zeptoforth isn't very zepto despte its name 20:17:12 somehow matthias has got mecrisp-stellaris RA smaller than zeptoforth despite having a whole optimization engine included 20:18:52 a peephole might not reduce it by much 20:19:18 but apparently matthias is an assembly wizard, while this is the first large project I have implemented in assembly (I did a bit of MIPS assembly in college, but that was not much) 20:19:29 not in size but in performance i can see 20:19:45 so instead of doing "bl dup" you would simply inline "push tos" 20:20:04 who is matthias ? 20:20:16 matthias koch, author of mecrisp-stellaris 20:21:18 which i also dont know anhything about :) 20:22:39 it's basically the predominant implementation of forth for cortex-m 20:23:03 --- quit: boru (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:23:04 there are like a couple others, and there is also zeptoforth, but if one wants to use forth on cortex-m it is basically the way to go 20:23:20 --- join: boru joined #forth 20:24:05 no, thats t4 :P 20:24:31 t4 runs under linux tho, not bare bones 20:24:41 tho i was porting it to the NXP K64F 20:24:50 mecrisp-stellaris is bare metal 20:24:57 problem is, i cannot get flash writes working on the K64F and everyone on the forums is as stumped as i am 20:25:17 and i got so damned frustrated that I basically gave up till i can get some competent help 20:25:19 lol 20:27:59 have you tried porting to STM32L476 or STM32F407? I've got implementations for those, and things have been pretty painless (aside from some issues with the F407's flash controller's erase feature) 20:28:15 (hint: the F407 only erases flash in huge sectors, which means that one wants to carefully align code with sector boundaries if one wants to not waste a ton of space when setting MARKERs) 20:28:46 --- quit: dzho (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 20:29:43 mark4: why just that MCU? there's a ton of MCUs out there, like the wide range of STMicroelectronics ones 20:29:52 --- join: dzho joined #forth 20:29:55 --- quit: remexre (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 20:30:18 i was working in austin texas for a company that used that cpu 20:30:24 and that cpu is ultra powerful 20:30:32 ah 20:30:38 but i stonewalled on not being able to write to flash 20:30:44 ultra annoying 20:30:54 the code is 100% perfect and non functional 20:32:21 --- join: remexre joined #forth 20:32:33 p.s. the nxp forums are a way for nxp to entirely wash their hands of doing support of ANY kind what so ever 20:32:51 and nobody on those forums could figure out wtf was wrong with my code 20:32:55 I've never dealt with NXP 20:33:15 just STMicroelectronics and Nordic Semiconductor 20:33:47 nordic make some good stuff :) 20:35:28 yeah, but the nordic board I have doesn't have proper pins for SMD but rather little spots on the side for soldering, and I can't solder 20:36:19 and the other way of writing to it is with a proprietary bootloader, such that your code won't actually control the whole board from bootup on 20:36:45 there is a better nordic board which seems like it might have pins for SWD 20:37:02 but it's $100, and I don't want to shell out the money for it 20:38:05 oh, also, if you overwrite the proprietary bootloader, you essentially brick the board until you can write to it with SWD 20:38:35 so I haven't bothered with the nordic board 20:41:21 the advantage of the L476 and the F407 DISCO boards I have is they have a builtin SWD programmer, so I can write to them with st-flash without dealing with programmers, SWD, or whatnot 20:41:51 i have a j-link edu 20:42:04 the k64f comes with a jtag header already populated 20:45:31 for work i have the wonderful job of developing for PIC32 :) 20:45:54 that's MIPS right? 20:46:41 MIPS would be a nice arch were it not for the damned delay slot - lol 20:48:58 --- quit: mark4 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:49:17 --- join: mark4 joined #forth 20:49:22 that's MIPS right? 20:49:23 MIPS would be a nice arch were it not for the damned delay slot - lol 20:49:24 stupid interwebs 20:49:29 yea thats MIPS 20:49:37 not a fan. think the mips arch is flawed 20:50:02 * tabemann remembers that the MIPS assembler he used in school hid the delay slot from the programmer... 20:50:03 no processor status word and any time you do an operation that causes an overflow that is an exception 20:50:20 ugh 20:50:51 ya. i was actually writing a MIPS32 assembler 20:51:03 in fact the only thing left to do is the local lables and branch resolution 20:51:08 why in fuck should overflow cause an exception? 20:51:09 and its complete 20:51:17 because MIPS was a stupid idea 20:51:23 do you know what MIPS stands for? 20:51:35 millions of instructions per second 20:51:45 Microprocessor without Instruction Pipeline Staging 20:52:00 they back peddled on that though it now has a pipeline 20:52:06 but the original MIPS did not 20:53:02 well i was almost right 20:53:05 was from memory 20:53:06 MIPS (Microprocessor without Interlocked Pipelined Stages)[1] is a 20:53:21 according to wikipedia, the oracle of all knowledge, true and false 20:53:22 how do you even make a conventional programming language work with exceptions on overflow? 20:53:41 you write code to test if there is going to be an overflow if you do the operation 20:53:50 and you handle the overflow that did not happen yet 20:55:42 that's going to result in a lot of unportable code w.r.t. code written for other archs that just handle overflow the normal way 20:56:15 ya dont say lol 20:56:23 mips has no PSW 20:56:24 at all 20:56:51 like i said, an entirely flawed arch 20:57:18 but at least it does not need a skid bucket like every other PIC controller 20:57:57 I remember looking at other PIC archs and wondering how people could program these things 20:58:33 PIC is the worst arch ive hever had to use 20:58:39 i wrote a program for a pic befor :-) 20:58:59 back in the sattelite tv days 20:59:04 satellite 20:59:13 once i got above 8k in size on BOTH pic24 projects i worked on, any modification of module A would have a detrimental affect on module B 20:59:14 gold card :-) 20:59:19 chase that down and C starts to fuck up 20:59:44 and if you put a breakpoint on an address and the debugger hits that breakpoint it will either stop THERE or up to 2 opcodes later 21:00:03 my proudest code is a 512 bit modular exponentiation in 200 bytes of ram 21:00:08 dave0, who were you working for? i worked for virtex rsi in longview texas 21:00:25 till general dynamics bought them 100% of their code base was forth 21:00:28 mark4: no no it was for fun and to get all the tv channels for free 21:00:35 ooooh :) 21:00:39 NOT illegal 21:00:43 btw 21:00:49 haha 21:01:00 anything that comes in over the air is public domain 21:01:18 its only stealing if you hack THEIR equipment to steal the channels 21:01:26 create your own and you are within your rights 21:01:50 same with cable TV. once the cable crosses your threshold the signal belongs to you 21:02:04 so what they do is they put filters on your line if you dont pay 21:02:07 it was austar in australia and they fixed it around 2002-3 or something, so nobody's cards worked anymore... i stopped around then 21:02:36 i had a similar thing in england where the satellite system used smart cards 21:02:47 i had a smart card circuit board with a cable to my laptop 21:02:52 yep 21:02:55 and run code on laptop to decrypt 21:03:14 that WOULD have been stealing but we were already paying for it so it was purely academic :) 21:03:38 * tabemann doesn't care enough about TV to bother with all that - he gets all his TV from the local library 21:03:38 it was good money for the pirates 21:04:11 every few months everyone's cards stopped working, so you'd need an update to your card... naturally the update wasn't free 21:04:32 not now 21:05:14 pay tv costs as much as a mothly internet subscription... why would you bother 21:05:32 pay tv is wildly expensive 21:05:37 i have not owned a TV in over 30 years now 21:05:45 the library is free as long as you return your DVDs on time 21:06:43 i still remember the first dvd i ever pirated - the day of the jackal :-) 21:07:01 still got it somewhere on a harddrive 21:07:07 I remember watching that movie 21:07:18 tabemann: good movie 21:07:30 not the bruce willis one 21:07:33 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:07:42 of course not the bruce willis one 21:08:01 the bruce willis movie is garbage. so is his death wish remake 21:08:02 :-) 21:08:12 the original movie is a classic 21:08:19 awesome actors and based on a true story 21:08:23 erm.. sort of 21:08:29 mark4: loosely 21:08:38 artistic license :) 21:08:48 the opening scene is largely true 21:09:03 i think i need to go watch that :) 21:09:12 the rest is fiction 21:10:25 the assassin was based on a real person who had that name, his acts in the movie are pure hollyweird 21:11:10 okay, I should hit the sack now; got work tomorrow 21:12:29 yea same same 21:12:34 g'night guys 21:12:39 ya :) 21:21:24 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 21:33:40 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 22:12:22 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 22:12:30 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 22:34:08 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.08.02