00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.06.17 00:05:18 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 00:20:34 --- quit: Croran (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 00:30:51 --- join: Croran joined #forth 00:54:42 tabemann: i should have waited for the stm32l476 discovery board 00:55:44 crest, theyre much the same, I have both 00:56:16 the discovery board has a usb header attached to the stm32 00:56:45 a usb socket ? 00:56:50 *socket 00:57:03 so does the nucleo ? 00:57:10 just to the stlink 00:57:18 really, gahh 00:57:38 yes 00:57:40 my F407 disco has 2x usb sockets 00:57:58 and i would like to play with the existing example code (form stm) 00:57:59 one for the swd interface one for the chip 00:58:26 i think doing that once may cure that desire 00:58:33 :-) 00:58:58 the register map looks daunting 00:59:16 just playing with openlibcm3 on stm32f103 has cured me of playing with C 00:59:16 but at the same time there is a lot more structure to the design 00:59:30 i'm not afraid of reading c code 01:00:10 and i probably prefer reading C to prose when it comes to initializing hardware 01:00:19 it's not that daunting, a STM32F7x7 has vastly more peripherals and registers 01:00:40 do you guys had tried porting forth to csky cpu 01:01:25 crest, no one is afraid, but I find embedded C to be a massive waste of time and resources 01:01:51 Forth makes any STM resources managable 01:02:10 i want to understand the hardware and protocol well enough to get a usb cdc device working 01:02:30 cool 01:02:34 (aka a virtual com port) 01:02:38 sure 01:03:33 just like the embello code for the old stm32f103 usb peripheral 01:07:09 whic was itself based on older code 01:07:38 older Forth code 01:30:55 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:34:10 --- quit: Lord_Nightmare (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 01:37:06 --- join: Lord_Nightmare joined #forth 02:00:29 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 02:49:47 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 03:27:53 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 03:28:33 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 03:28:53 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 03:35:11 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 03:44:05 --- join: proteus-guy joined #forth 03:56:43 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 04:47:07 --- quit: jedb (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:47:22 --- join: jedb joined #forth 05:04:23 --- join: andrei-n joined #forth 05:20:59 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 05:31:46 morning all 06:14:19 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 06:28:57 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 06:33:23 --- quit: mtsd (Remote host closed the connection) 06:41:35 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 06:57:11 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.8.0 - https://znc.in) 07:39:12 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:59:00 --- join: dys joined #forth 08:27:43 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 09:17:49 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 09:25:27 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 10:00:44 --- quit: andrei-n (Quit: Leaving) 10:14:48 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 11:21:01 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 11:56:15 --- quit: jedb (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:14:02 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 12:50:08 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 12:54:20 tabemann: there is a fix for st-flash 1.6.1 on stm32l476 12:54:35 looks like it was just a stupid timeout 12:56:20 hat explains why i couldn't find any large changes and it wasn't perfectly reliable during bisection 13:00:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 13:01:10 --- join: andrei-n joined #forth 13:03:25 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 13:24:16 --- log: started forth/20.06.17 13:24:16 --- join: clog joined #forth 13:24:16 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN backup at http://forthworks.com/forth/irc-logs/ | If you have two (or more) stacks and speak RPN then you're welcome here! | https://github.com/mark4th' 13:24:16 --- topic: set by proteusguy!~proteusgu@cm-58-10-208-146.revip7.asianet.co.th on [Mon Dec 30 10:43:28 2019] 13:24:16 --- names: list (clog cp-- ornxka_ X-Scale andrei_n _whitelogger dddddd dave0 Zarutian_HTC WickedShell dys gravicappa proteus-guy Lord_Nightmare Croran crc- kamid djinni boru jimt[m] ovf siraben rann patrickg Vedran yunfan routeveg deesix a3f Blue_flame nmz cantstanya tangentstorm cmtptr rprimus koisoke tp klys tolja pareidolia jackdaniel presiden irsol tabemann crc_ +proteusguy arrdem dzho C-Keen Keshl_ WilhelmVonWeiner xek jhei heredoc jn__ ecraven guan crest nonlinear) 13:24:16 --- names: list (bluekelp neuro_sys pointfree catern mjl rpcope APic fiddlerwoaroof diginet2 veltas phadthai lonjil Chobbes MrMobius remexre Kumool +KipIngram) 13:33:41 --- quit: andrei_n (Quit: Leaving) 13:38:39 --- quit: rann (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 13:41:06 --- quit: ovf (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 13:50:19 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 13:59:03 --- nick: crc- -> crc 13:59:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +v crc 14:02:00 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 14:13:40 --- nick: Keshl_ -> Keshl 14:13:59 --- join: MrMobius joined #forth 14:16:11 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 14:20:59 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 14:36:37 --- join: rann joined #forth 14:38:12 --- join: ovf joined #forth 15:10:49 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 15:43:12 If Forth was a food... 15:43:18 which food would it be? 16:11:10 grape seed extract 16:34:03 --- quit: tp (Remote host closed the connection) 16:34:20 --- join: tp joined #forth 16:34:20 --- quit: tp (Changing host) 16:34:20 --- join: tp joined #forth 16:34:23 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 16:35:38 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 17:36:13 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 17:46:11 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 18:08:29 hey guys 18:08:36 hey tabemann 18:09:49 * tabemann should port zeptoforth to the numworks calc but for some reason is reluctant to do so 18:09:59 why ? 18:10:54 probably mostly because of A) having to figure out the damn memory controller B) either make significant changes to zeptoforth to support three memory spaces or otherwise leave onboard memory to just the kernel alone 18:10:56 a lot of work involved ? 18:11:09 ah yes, I recall now 18:11:27 it's a real world challenge 18:11:42 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 18:11:45 I'm surprised the on board mcu has so little memory 18:12:02 I mean, my stm32f051 has 64kb onboard 18:12:45 that's probably because the numworks people decided to put everything in the external flash 18:13:10 is it parallel flash or XIP type stuff? 18:13:36 I'd have to look it up 18:13:54 okay, time for dinner 18:13:56 bbl 18:14:13 MrMobius, serial flash I believe 18:14:40 hmm 18:14:46 MrMobius, the MCU in that calculator maps serial flash to internal address space 18:15:17 some of them can fetch code from serial at run time so it runs code from serial transparently 18:15:21 MrMobius, so once the serial flash type is configured, it's just like internal flash 18:15:31 but maybe it loads from flash into ram before running anything 18:15:58 neato. it might be the first thing then 18:16:15 maybe, but as with all things cortex-m, the register options are vast 18:16:40 and tabemann in porting all that has to find ot which is which 18:19:17 MrMobius, I'm not sure how the mcu can autofind serial flash from all the available options to load by itself, Ive looked thru the register concerned and it appears to need configuration 18:20:50 tp, I dont mean it detects it automatically. I mean it can be configured to execute code stored in serial memory 18:21:07 MrMobius, ahh, ok, thats definitely the case 18:21:14 which is relatively new. before that it was either executing from parallel memory or loading from flash to ram before executing 18:21:43 MrMobius, absolutely 18:22:18 I was intruiged to find the option myself, this stuff advances faster than I can keep up 18:24:44 MrMobius, yet ... in one of the Chinese STM32F103 clones, the GD32F103 ( or the CS32F103) they actually glue a 128KB flash on top of their clone die, and it loads into ram at bootup, making for a cheaper chip, faster clock, but slower boot up 18:28:27 I wonder what the speed trade off is too 18:29:03 the mcu can then run at full clock speed instead of flash wait states 18:29:14 bit takes about 130ms to start 18:29:34 Im only really into electronics and programming for calculator stuff but lost interest in the numworks thing pretty quickly. I imagine running from serial flash might be quite a bottleneck on top of everything being in Java iirc 18:29:39 compared for a couple of Mecrisp-Stellaris with the non clone 18:30:07 well tabemann is planning to run his Forth on it 18:30:27 heh, so that chinese clone has as much ram as a legit chip has just for flash? 18:30:27 but yeah, serial flash has to be slower 18:30:36 correct 18:31:01 they even ficed a long standing STM32F103 issue, namely reading the DBG register 18:31:06 fixed 18:31:55 bizarre 18:32:19 doesnt sram use a lot more power than flash? 18:36:03 whats odd is that they made the clone and printed stm32f103 on it so as to make a quick buck. If they had marketed it under its proper designation as a separate product they would have had to wait longer for market acceptance but could have sold millions ? 18:36:43 frankly I dont know, Ive never looked ito it 18:37:10 but now no one trusts the Chinese when it comes to clones 18:37:51 in the meantime STM innovates with their serial flash to program memory mapping facility 18:38:14 why would they have made millions? I think they would have had to license the ARM core at the very least 18:38:55 MrMobius, compared to the 1 bit calculators of old, perhaps serial flash on a 200mhz calculator isnt so bad ? 18:39:56 --- join: jedb joined #forth 18:42:10 I dont believe they licensed anything 18:42:29 their STM32f103 clone is totally different silicon 18:42:51 china doesnt need tp license anything, their law is different 18:44:39 back 18:46:41 MrMobius, maybe they did license the arm core, who knows ? perhaps it's the peripherls they redesigned 18:47:11 tp, kind of. they flout international agreements on copyright stuff so its not just that they have different domestic laws 18:48:00 hehe, ya compared to a 1 bit ALU but not compared to the 500mhz+ monster HP is selling now 18:48:59 do you need to license the core when you implement your own from scratch, with completely different silicon and merely binary compatibility? 18:49:06 lol, embedded mcus are now in the 1Ghz territory, the Atmel SAM stuff 18:49:14 they are serious fast 18:49:39 but the MCu in the Numworks ? it draws 300mA at full speed 18:49:41 but what do you lose in power consumption? 18:49:51 and 30mA in low power! 18:50:08 is that the chip or the screen? 18:50:53 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:50:56 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:50:58 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:54:00 thats the MCU 18:54:21 they must stop it between keypreses or something 18:54:53 it's power hungry compared to my stm3f051 which runs on 3ma at 8mhz 18:56:55 at least on the l476 and the f407 sleep mode is pretty trivial to use, so I don't see why they wouldn't use it 18:57:47 hell, I normally put the MCU to sleep between keypresses, and my code is pretty simple 19:00:12 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 19:01:56 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:02:13 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 19:02:23 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:02:48 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 19:02:54 tabemann, sleep means 30mA in the case of the Numworks 19:03:22 thats 10x more than my stm32f103 in run mode at 8mhz 19:03:44 and I get 3uA in sleep 19:04:30 tabemann, sleep is always trivial, deepsleep, and other modes are far from trivial 19:04:58 that is true 19:05:09 my embedded programmer friend spent 3 months getting a STMLxx down to nA on his profuct 19:05:27 he's awesome and said it nearly drove him mad 19:05:51 he makes a hand held IR camera 19:06:00 sells it to power companies 19:07:01 does it have external sram? 19:07:09 numworks i mean 19:07:17 of course those power levels involve more than the STM power settings, but how he did it is a secret known only to him 19:10:33 IIRC the numworks calculator has onboard SRAM 19:10:34 MrMobius, doesnt seem to : https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/hardware/electrical/schematics/ 19:11:52 so to install software on the numworks calculator I'd have to write the kernel onto the device, and compile a simple seconary bootloader into RAM (or have it prewritten into the kernel), then use that to load the rest of the code into external flash 19:18:47 hmm 19:18:50 no 19:19:32 I think you could write a bootprogram that simply sets up the serial flash then runs your Forth ? 19:20:53 or if you want it to be easy, load Mecrisp-Stellaris onto the numworks which on powerup configures for the serial flash and boots your forth ? 19:21:21 Mecrisp-Stellaris only takes 20kb of flash on the mcu 19:22:31 back 19:23:39 I don't think bringing in Mecrisp-Stellaris is necessary 19:23:56 after all Mecrisp-Stellaris doesn't include code for configuring the external flash anyways 19:24:42 what ?? 19:24:49 youre kidding ? 19:24:58 Mecrisp-Stellaris is the total answer 19:25:04 Mecrisp-Stellaris's numworks support is for the older version of Numworks 19:25:13 which has 1 meg of on-chip flash 19:25:14 oh, thats a problem 19:25:27 yeah but Mecrisp-Stellaris only needs 20KB 19:26:01 what I need is this 19:26:13 A) I need code for configuring the external flash, in the kernel 19:26:13 if you think writing and testing assembly on the numworks is easier than Mecrisp-Stellaris, I think youre in for a learning experience and a half :) 19:26:45 B) I need code for supporting the USART, in the kernel 19:26:51 no, yu only need to configure the relevant mcu register 19:27:03 b) maybe 19:27:28 supporting the external serial flash is a mcu config, nothing more 19:27:30 C) I need a secondary bootloader of sorts to read a binary for the external flash, in ihex format, over serial 19:27:46 that's what I mean by having to configure it 19:28:03 C) no the external flash gets mapped to the mcu internal memory space 19:28:23 after that it's indistinguishable from normal flash 19:28:23 tp: the problem is that it's not mapped at bootup time 19:28:53 so I need to get zeptoforth running first before I can load code into external flash 19:29:06 and I can't use dfu for it, as dfu won't see the external flash 19:29:07 i discussed that above 19:29:47 tabemann, you have zeptoforth coloured glasses on :) 19:30:13 using mecrisp-stellaris will only complicate things 19:33:31 it's simple 19:33:33 1. bootup 19:33:40 2. configure external flash 19:33:49 3. configure serial 19:33:59 well, 1.5: configure the clock 19:34:40 4: load ihex over serial to load info external flash 19:35:04 cool 19:35:21 (4 is probably best achieved by loading and compiling a program in RAM which does this and then having that load the code info external flash) 19:35:32 be interesting to hear your progress 19:36:02 I need to buy a damn female USB 2.0 A breakout board again 19:36:24 because the one I bought never arrived and instead got sent back to amazon for some reason 19:37:04 darn! 19:40:11 tabemann, is there no support for running a program once numworks boots? 19:41:47 what do you mean? 19:42:08 do you mean loading a program that will be executed by numworks? 19:42:35 all external code has to be either A) compiled into numworks itself or B) run as microPython code 19:44:11 gross 19:44:34 like on a TI calculator from the mid 90s you could download a chunk of asm and just run it from the OS 19:44:48 I've tried running microPython code on the calculator for the hell of it, and it's slow 19:44:58 heh I bet 19:45:38 oh yeah upython is 300x slower than Mecrisp-Stellaris on the same device in my tesys 19:45:40 tests 19:45:45 a chunk of binary data I should say. I think the z80 based ones called this an "asm" type object 19:47:01 MrMobius, the numworks is just a flashy oss calculator, it wasnt meant to do anything else as std 19:47:23 well one of the assumptions of numworks is that one can load external code - you just have to compile it into the kernel 19:47:39 which you do have access to the source code of 19:47:44 tabemann, we call that 'reflashing new fw' 19:47:53 :) 19:48:03 I guess you totally reflash it every time you want to test your program 19:48:11 albeit it's not free because it does have a non-commercial license clause 19:48:25 wait a second 19:48:43 MrMobius, thats right 19:48:45 how does flashing work if you only have access to 64K of flash 19:49:04 so the flashing code must know about the external flash 19:49:08 tabemann, same as usual 19:49:14 most of the latest calculators are locked down too which is why I stopped buying them after the HP 50G 19:49:25 I just wouldnt own one you cant run native code on 19:50:05 I'm happy to just use my TI34 as a caLculator 19:50:46 still works perfectly since I bought it in the 1980's 19:50:54 solar powered 19:53:56 tabemann, could you modify the OS just enough to load your Forth code? 19:54:04 so you dont have to reflash everything every time 19:55:30 modify the OS - lol 19:55:51 from the impression I get, zeptoforth is far, far lighter-weight than the numworks OS 19:56:20 well the zeptoforth kernel at least 19:57:25 it's just a matter of me having to figure out how to configure this damn memory controller 19:58:15 and writing an itsy bitsy program to load into RAM to write code in ihex format into external flash 19:58:18 or 19:58:38 just compile the code as source into external flash 20:05:20 so you just have forth rather than switching in and out? 20:07:35 yes 20:09:03 I hope you have a good floating point package :) 20:09:43 zeptoforth doesn't have floating point, but I intend to add fixed point 21:27:24 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 21:31:04 --- part: tp left #forth 22:09:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 22:12:23 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 23:35:07 --- join: mtsd joined #forth 23:41:12 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 23:57:00 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.06.17