00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.05.20 00:56:13 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 01:08:08 --- join: dys joined #forth 01:13:35 --- join: reepca` joined #forth 01:13:54 --- quit: reepca (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:21:34 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 01:24:29 --- join: xek joined #forth 02:05:30 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 02:06:05 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 02:06:20 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 02:45:58 --- quit: boru (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02:59:37 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 03:32:57 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 03:39:41 how to easily insert bitfield templates into a embedded Forth program using Vim: https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/vim.html#vim-codecompletion-bitfields 04:46:44 --- join: boru joined #forth 05:32:03 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 05:48:12 --- quit: dave0 (Remote host closed the connection) 06:37:20 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 06:39:07 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 07:19:39 Are there 'serious' forth text editors for hosted x86 environments? 07:19:42 There should be 07:22:03 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 07:22:21 veltas, as opposed to 'flippant' forth text editors for hosted x86 environments? 07:23:45 I mean something a bit more than the normal block editor stuff, but I haven't tried one of those out myself, just read the docs, so I have no idea how functional they are 07:24:00 For one thing they probably have very limited usage for editing generic source code 07:25:00 Forth really demands trying to put everywhere, with its claim of being a 4th generation language, and I would definitely give it a fair fight, if I knew of good software for this. 07:25:09 I'm sure crc has an opinion on this 07:25:52 Forth is interesting enough to try and use it like this, anyway. 07:30:03 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 08:28:32 --- join: mark4 joined #forth 08:50:07 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 09:22:17 how do you define `serious` ? 09:22:27 I use a text editor wc 09:22:47 written in retro, at least part of the time 09:24:11 http://forth.works/examples/edit.retro.html 09:31:52 --- quit: boru (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:41:15 * crc is working on a newer text editor as well, similar to the current one, but which isn't inherently destructive 09:44:46 whats wrong with sublime text? :) 09:46:54 what's wrong with vim 09:47:11 whats right with it 09:48:34 i like it 09:49:44 i've gotten so used to using vi(m) that when i have to use the arrow keys to move my cursor while editing text, i get very frustrated 10:02:44 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 10:19:54 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 10:26:51 sublime text doesn't run in a console, vim is too big :) 10:34:51 ed is the true editor 10:37:48 as with most things, I'd rather use an editor I've written for my own use 10:52:31 I have never seen the alure of vi or vim or even emacs 10:54:41 sometimes i look back and wonder how the hell i ever got into 10:54:41 it 10:54:48 I sometimes use pico but often when I do have to do lots of repeatative changes I just pipe the files through jq or awk or tcl depending on the nature of the change 10:55:08 because it does seem like one of those things i would have blown off because it's so big and the ui has such a high bar for entry 10:55:31 but somehow in college i started using it and it's become critically integral to my daily workflow 10:57:00 I often use gedit, Notepad++ or Notepadqq if I feel I need syntax highlighting 10:57:33 and then are the cack handed IDEs 10:59:33 the only IDEs that I have liked is some of the code tools in Smalltalk80/Squeak and Scratch/Blocky. The latter only on phones and tablets. 11:02:49 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 11:25:21 --- join: Labu joined #forth 13:01:03 so im trying to automate the mounting of a windows encrypted partiton in fstab - how can i control the order in which items in fstab are processed? 13:02:09 i.e. i have to mount a fuse.dislocker file system to /fudge then mount /fudge/dislocker-file to somewhere else 13:04:01 err nvm drat i have another meeting to go to it seems... bbl :) tyty 13:04:03 --- quit: mark4 (Quit: Leaving) 13:10:21 aren't they processed in order? 13:10:27 oh, he left 13:20:20 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 13:26:28 --- quit: _whitelogger (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:30:26 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 13:33:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 13:45:28 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 13:50:12 --- quit: xek (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 14:18:01 cmtptr: The readline/emacs shortcuts are nicer for navigating lines of text 14:18:16 But I can't get away from vim for work and personal use 14:18:30 I don't like vi, lots of things in it work worse for no good reason 14:40:17 crc: This is why I asked you "I'd rather use an editor I've written" 14:40:45 "I use a text editor wc" what does 'wc' mean? Is that the name of the editor? 14:41:17 Is Hua the editor you use? 14:50:00 I need to actually take the effort some day to learn the emacs shortcuts. ^A, ^E, and ^B are the only ones I know 14:54:22 M-f and M-b to forwards and backwards a word, there you go 14:54:41 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 14:54:49 C-r to do a 'reverse search' i.e backwards search, in bash, python etc this will give you searchable command history 14:56:57 C-k to 'kill' the rest of line, C-y to 'yank' it (paste). M-y to cycle through other things that were yanked previously after pasting (this is super useful and I wish vim had it) 14:57:43 And if you can't be bothered, almost all these prompts use one library, readline, which comes with a builtin vi-style mode most people don't know about. 14:59:30 C-p to previous line, C-n to next line. And that summarises the commands that I use for 99% of my shell usage including the ones you mentioned 15:18:35 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 16:03:34 ah, M-f is the one I always get wrong. I usually try to use M-w (because in vi it would be w), and that deletes the previous word 16:27:54 I refuse to use any editor other than copy-con under dos 4.1 ! 16:28:02 16:28:15 Cycling through previously cut stuff is super helpful, and vim has no good substitute. 16:28:20 If I made a text editor it would be the core of useful vim commands, but I would improve things like that. 16:28:36 Zarutian_HTC, the alure of Vim is of course the capabilities it has 16:29:40 veltas, yeah, Vim isnt perfect, but it's very hard to replace if one uses it's capabilities, same as emacs I guess 16:30:34 I have tried vim and emacs quite extensively and there are a few things emacs does better, but I am just faster in vim and also vim loads faster 16:30:36 tp: have not found vim that capable beyond more specialized editors 16:31:20 Zarutian_HTC, windows editors or java monoliths like Eclipse ? 16:31:28 And emacs users who say "I use an emacs server so loading is faster" just think about how ridiculous that sounds. vim doesn't need any of that it's just fast. 16:31:58 Zarutian_HTC, Ive looked at other editors and nothing I've seen comes even remotely close to the capabilities of Vim 16:32:55 Emacs daemon or whatever it's called is right up there with preloading Office on Windows because they couldn't write fast office software so now my RAM has to sacrifice. 16:33:26 editors that are made for the task at hand. For instance, an Forth that has autocompletion suggestions for words, in the incerse order those words are defined 16:33:45 but I would rate as a Vim noobie compared to real programmers Ive seen use Vim ... frankly it's really intimidating to watch them at work 16:34:24 Zarutian_HTC, I have Forth command completion, thats a no brainer with Vim 16:34:52 Zarutian_HTC, Vim comes with Forth syntax ighlighting and the command completion uses it 16:35:19 plus vim knows about 200 programming languages 16:35:23 basically I have been spoiled by Smalltalk80 and other rich repl tools such as one provided in Dr.Scheme 16:35:24 or maybe more 16:35:56 Zarutian_HTC, ahh the LISP secret weapon! 16:36:05 vim knows how to semantic highlighting? 16:36:18 I have never used word completion in anything, I'm not against it or ignorant of it, just don't use. I find it distracting somehow 16:36:32 Zarutian_HTC, yes it does, 200+ languages a standard 16:37:15 veltas, same here, besides every word I create is unknown to Vim anyway 16:37:32 it is wonderfull for forth code entry via nes gamepad and other such limited input rich output interfaces 16:37:54 veltas, but I do use and *love* the full line search and insert facility of Vim 16:38:29 Hmm, straight out of ed too 16:38:33 tp: _semantic_ highlightinh not syntax highlighting 16:38:33 veltas, especially when the lines are 80 characters longe 16:38:33 -e 16:39:12 Zarutian_HTC, oops, sorry, I read semantic and thought syntax 16:39:59 I find google search distracting too, the pictures and the way it changes as you type 16:40:08 I think I am hyper distractible though 16:44:46 I wish I could find out how to turn if synonymizatio google search often does. In many cases I am using a spefic word in a search because it is more exact. 16:46:04 And some people dont seem to realize that some words are not synonyms even when they are used to describe the same thing but in different aspects 16:49:03 for instance, square and rectangular are two different things regarding shapes 16:50:08 something being square can mean that it is a rectangle with equal long sides on all sides 16:51:18 or it can be exactly 90° square to something 16:52:14 what in Icelandic is called hornrétt (cornercorrect aprox translation) 16:53:04 and the tool used that is also called square in english we Icelanders call vinkill 16:54:47 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 16:56:15 * Zarutian_HTC was looking for the prices for wood working squares if you must know 16:56:42 good morning explorers of the Forth dimension c[] 16:58:15 greetings Forthling rdrop-exit 16:58:25 hi tp :) 16:58:37 rdrop-exit: What text editor(s) do you use? 16:59:41 a mix, sometimes vi, lately textWrangler, used to use kedit a lot, in Forth I use my own block editors 17:00:23 kedit is so bloated but I can't deny having also used it a lot, back in the day 17:00:36 Or wait actually I used kate, sorry. 17:00:47 They are the same though right? Under the hood? 17:01:15 I don't know kate, kedit was originally a DOS port of IBM's xedit 17:02:02 Oh I am thinking of kwrite 17:02:13 so many editors ... 17:02:32 I think I have merged the names of gedit and kwrite, because they are the main gnome and KDE editors 17:02:44 My block editor is wordstar like, but I have a completely revamped editor in the planning stages once I'm done with my X11 port 17:03:49 Oooh 17:03:55 I'm planning to base the new block editor on some of the concepts from the Canon Cat (but block oriented) 17:04:21 right now, it's just scribbles on paper 17:05:59 I'll take advantage of X providing me with separate key press/release events to have quasi-modes 17:06:11 I want an editor for my forth env, but I am not sure if it will be block based, how that would work if it is block based, etc. 17:06:47 BTW, this is for the Host side of my tethered Forth, the side running on a PC 17:07:26 incremental search quasi-mode and undo/redo 17:07:52 hex editing quasi-mode as well 17:09:04 veltas, if you're putting an editor on an onbard Forth, then block based is the way to go 17:09:09 You use a mac? 17:09:20 I think it will be block based but not fixed line size 17:09:48 yes, usually Mac 17:10:17 not having fixed dimensions takes away most of the advantages of blocks 17:11:05 Well I'm still figuring it out in my head 17:11:50 sure, I'm still working out the details of my Cat-inspired editor on paper 17:12:44 It will be nice to get away from the limitations of a terminal based Forth 17:13:41 even though my current Forth is terminal based, it's still full screen 17:14:25 the main limitation I'm trying to get away from is the lack of key press/release in ECMA-48/ANSI 17:14:57 terminal codes 17:16:30 In fact my plan for today was to reread the Canon Cat docs 17:17:21 Do you have a PDF? 17:17:52 yes, there's a site that has all of them, just a sec, I'll try to find the url 17:18:33 http://www.canoncat.net 17:20:01 even though the canon cat is Forth based, the editor and user interface aren't block based, so my editor will definitely have major differences 17:20:43 Cool 17:21:03 Raskin later wrote up many of his ideas from the Cat in the book "The Humane Interface" 17:21:44 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Humane_Interface 17:24:34 Here's a cool video on the Canon Cat 17:24:36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jErqdRE5zpQ 17:25:08 I will watch tomorrow, going to sleep 17:25:23 I will look, am interested in the subject at the moment 17:25:30 Thanks rdrop 17:25:44 np, goodnight veltas 17:34:51 tp, my daughter just put up a new song video on youtube, it's an original song this time, not a cover 17:35:21 (my eldest daughter) 17:35:29 rdrop-exit, cool, I'll watch it soon :) 17:36:21 thanks! the url is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U61EBlRrw_k 17:40:52 --- quit: dzho (Remote host closed the connection) 17:41:05 --- join: dzho joined #forth 17:43:02 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 17:43:47 hey guys 17:44:04 hi tabemann! 17:44:26 --- quit: dzho (Client Quit) 17:45:06 hey tabemann ! 17:45:25 * tabemann should test out his output validation code 17:45:42 *test his 17:46:12 Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? 17:46:21 actualy, bbiab 17:46:29 ciao 17:49:34 --- join: dzho joined #forth 17:50:48 --- quit: dzho (Client Quit) 17:51:28 --- join: dzho joined #forth 17:53:39 --- quit: dzho (Client Quit) 18:07:27 --- join: dzho joined #forth 18:53:36 back 18:53:49 wb 20:10:41 --- join: kori joined #forth 21:23:25 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 21:28:07 --- quit: tp (Remote host closed the connection) 21:31:13 --- join: tp joined #forth 21:39:01 --- join: jsoft joined #forth 22:00:33 --- quit: jsoft (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 22:07:38 --- quit: dave0 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 22:12:49 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 22:14:50 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 23:28:16 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 23:28:54 --- quit: cheers (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 23:29:59 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 23:29:59 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 23:31:08 --- join: cheers joined #forth 23:48:09 --- quit: Labu (Quit: Leaving.) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.05.20