00:00:00 --- log: started forth/20.05.18 00:32:13 --- quit: cp- (Quit: Disappeared in a puff of smoke) 00:32:44 --- join: cp- joined #forth 01:09:40 --- quit: reepca (Remote host closed the connection) 01:09:52 --- join: reepca joined #forth 01:15:34 --- join: xek__ joined #forth 01:19:59 --- join: X-Scale` joined #forth 01:20:28 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:20:33 --- nick: X-Scale` -> X-Scale 01:36:46 --- quit: deesix (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 02:42:23 --- join: deesix joined #forth 02:44:43 --- join: dddddd joined #forth 03:44:08 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 04:27:58 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 04:55:05 --- join: TCZ joined #forth 05:00:59 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Remote host closed the connection) 05:20:16 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 05:20:34 --- join: iyzsong joined #forth 05:28:34 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 06:16:47 --- quit: iyzsong (Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in) 06:41:12 --- join: Zarutian_HTC joined #forth 06:55:36 --- quit: TCZ (Quit: Leaving) 07:05:28 --- quit: dave0 (Quit: dave's not here) 07:11:07 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:26:34 --- join: WickedShell joined #forth 09:28:11 --- quit: dave9 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 10:53:14 --- join: corn joined #forth 10:53:38 --- nick: corn -> Guest3626 10:54:46 --- nick: Guest3626 -> crab1 11:00:11 hiya forthsters 11:01:17 Is the ATmega8A a nice microcontroller? 11:06:45 Greetings crab1. Why not? 11:08:56 I have no idea, I have 0 experience with hardware, want to get into it, don't know where to start 11:09:23 except I have a simple project in mind: RPN calculator 11:09:49 ATmega328P is the current revision, and just 0.1 bits larger. ATxmega* is 0.2 bits larger ;) . 11:10:17 and my googling seems to imply that one of those ATmega microcontrollers would be suitable 11:13:37 It can be conveniently loaded as a serial FLASH device: ""In System Serial Programming"". Reset Pin becomes CS and others are the same SPI peripheral available to... application. 11:14:44 You can think of it as a Flash Memory Device with a CPU as it's Peripheral. 11:16:19 crab1: even for AVRs the mega8 is an old part 11:17:05 can it even write the code flash at runtime? 11:17:55 I have no idea 11:17:58 I know nothing 11:18:00 because the sram is going to be a tight fit for a forth system *cough* 11:18:14 why do you want to use an atmega8? 11:18:25 Yes, from ""BOOT FLASH"" in parallel. 11:18:37 I don't specifically want to, it just came up when I was googling 11:18:52 like I said, I'm inexperienced and and have no idea where to start 11:19:51 get a blue pill for $2-3 and play with mecrisp stellaris? 11:20:40 a usb <-> 3.3v serial convert is all you need to flash the chip 11:21:03 I guess tp's website would be a good start. No, ""Blue Pill"" is not a good idea. 11:21:13 CORDIC: it depends 11:21:19 he doesn't like them 11:22:45 --- join: Zarutian_HTC| joined #forth 11:22:46 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:23:20 $100 is not much for a _DevBoard_. Why would anyone punish himself with a Blue Pill for $3? 11:25:45 you can get an official devboard for way less than $100 11:28:35 crab1, Ive built a few RPN calculators so I can give you some advice http://joldosh.blogspot.com/p/calculator-projects.html 11:28:44 http://joldosh.blogspot.com/search/label/Tiny%20Calculator 11:28:45 crab1: https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy40.html https://www.olimex.com/Products/PIC/Development/PIC32-HMZ144/open-source-hardware 11:29:05 Are good examples, IMHO. 11:30:02 crab1, what are you planning? that will help decide what chip to pick. do you want a 4 level RPN stack like the old HPs or something more sophisticated? 11:33:44 So far I have no constraints. It would be cool if it was programmable, but that's not a necessity, I'm not really opposed to a 4 level stack if it significantly simplifies things 11:35:04 crab1, it would make it simpler and you can implement keystroke programming like on an HP 41 11:35:50 and basically any microcontroller will have enough ram for that so you dont have to worry about external memory 11:37:14 yeah keystroke programming would be just fine 11:37:33 are you planning on a surface mount board ot through hole? 11:38:58 no plans, I don't even know precisely what those mean except that they sound self explanatory 11:39:16 but I don't no the implications of choosing one of the other 11:39:22 s/no/know 11:39:32 s/of/or 11:41:27 through hole is the largest type of chip. you can put it on a breadboard and buy a protoboard for about $1 with a grid of holes and solder up anything you like 11:42:42 smd means you need to get a custom board made which you design in a program and then have it shipped to you from china and hope you didnt make a mistake. the good side is the best chips only come in surface mount and your board is better quality/more professional 11:43:15 through hole sounds better for prototyping 11:43:44 right. definitely if youre a beginner 11:45:23 so the best choices will probably be MSP430, AVR, or PIC32 11:46:28 all have C compilers. youll have to see what there is if you have your heart set on forth. there is a good one for msp430 but it requires a separate ARM board that sits between the PC and msp430, so maybe not 100% beginner friendly 11:46:55 tp here is the resident expert on that 11:47:22 On the programming side I'm not picky for this project, even assembly suits me fine 11:48:38 MSP430 is pretty easy to get going. dev board including two chips is like $12. thats what I started with. downside is max 512 bytes ram 11:49:16 pic32 has 64k ram, 256k flash, and 50mhz so very beefy. programmer is like $40 iirc 11:49:27 hm that MSP looks familiar I think my Dad gave me one of those launchpad dev boards like 10 years ago before I was even in highschool 11:49:36 might make sense to pick the one you think will be useful to you in future projects and get familiar with it 11:49:55 thats great. you can just use that if you still have it 11:50:32 I'm not sure if it's still around somewhere, I'll have to look 11:51:07 if I have it I bet the pins are bent to shit 11:52:42 I recal trying to unbend them at one point and only making it worse 11:52:46 recall* 11:52:53 I may have thrown it out 11:53:31 which one of those 3 is best for power consumption 11:54:05 you could get one of the newer ones if you have the spare cash. they run at 3.3v instead of 3.6v and have an energy monitor built in which is very nice 11:54:56 not sure tbh. msp430 is known for being super low power, but not sure in practice it will be much better than pic32. never used AVRs so no clue 11:55:33 the thing with a calculator is you will spend the majority of time sleeping, wake up to service a key press, then immediately go back to sleep so energy usage should be tiny 11:56:07 I calculated using the one I made with an msp430 for like an hour a day and having a watch battery last over a year 11:56:54 yeah, I've also thought about making a watch/clock and I see watches with calculators built in that last like 5 years on a battery and that sounds crazy to me 11:58:39 heh ya. a watch needs to wake up like once a second 11:59:04 even a calculator has to wake up a few dozen times a second and read 40 or so keys 12:00:19 I wonder if a watch that recharges with solar power is feasible 12:00:32 I'm not sure a nice rechargable watch battery like that exists 12:00:48 crab1: there are watched powered by your wrist movements 12:02:00 and you need room on the watch for the solar panel 12:02:26 right 12:03:45 there are those calculators with little solar panels on them 12:04:23 yep 12:04:46 dunno if that would be easy to recreate your first go around though :P 12:05:09 yeah no I'm not planning on that 12:05:32 not even planning on a watch 12:05:58 programmable calculator sounds easier than programmable watch 12:06:14 hehe, not necessarily 12:06:23 you could walk around with an enormous watch 12:07:57 the IAR C compiler is kind of neat. the free version limits you to 8k but you can simulate your program and it has console input and output 12:08:18 so you could use that to test your interface then switch to gcc for compiling which has no restrictions 12:09:16 IAR is proprietary tho 12:11:41 ya doing it all in gcc and just testing it directly on your hardware is an option too 12:12:04 if I end up going with C, we shall see 12:13:12 one advantage is if you get used to the msp430, you can move on to the forth system I mentioned before. it does a good job of optimizing which many mcu forths dont do 12:13:50 what's that forth called? 12:13:57 mescrisp 12:14:30 ah ok 12:14:40 the one tp uses all the time 12:20:19 yep 13:45:16 --- quit: crab1 (Quit: Lost terminal) 14:16:36 --- quit: xek__ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:31:44 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 14:57:44 --- nick: Zarutian_HTC| -> Zarutian_HTC 15:05:00 --- join: dave0 joined #forth 15:15:14 --- join: Zarutian_HTC| joined #forth 15:15:22 --- quit: Zarutian_HTC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:25:18 --- quit: Labu (Quit: Leaving.) 17:03:51 --- join: rdrop-exit joined #forth 17:19:11 --- quit: ornxka (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 17:20:22 --- join: ornxka joined #forth 17:33:27 hey 17:34:47 * tabemann wonders why he'd want to use the IAR C compiler when he can have his own, homemade Forth compiler 17:43:46 hi tabemann c[] 17:45:57 * tabemann remembers IAR from quite some time ago (this is in reference to a comment from way earlier today) 18:02:18 --- join: boru` joined #forth 18:02:21 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 18:02:23 --- nick: boru` -> boru 18:06:19 tabemann, especially when the IAR C compiler os is proprietary payware 18:06:23 hey rdrop-exit 18:09:23 hi tp! 18:33:26 back 18:33:38 hey tp 18:34:54 --- quit: pareidolia (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 18:35:10 and if one doesn't want to use gcc, there is always clang 18:36:24 it's not like the only options are gcc and proprietary crap 18:37:09 --- join: pareidolia joined #forth 18:39:34 tabemann, with arm it's pretty much Gcc/proproetary tho as clang doesnt do ARM iirc 18:39:53 ot Clang suppirt is poor ror something like that 18:40:53 plus the ARM people actually maintain the GCC version of arm-none-eai- 18:42:15 that is true 18:43:07 huh, that's somewhat surprising to me; I thought apple poured tons of $ into llvm+clang for iphone et al 18:43:14 or did that only end up helping aarch64? 18:44:31 remexre, I dont know but everyone uses arm-none-eabi- for embedded arm as far as Im aware 18:45:50 my only embedded arm experience is with aarch64-none-elf- so I can't really speak to that triple 18:46:07 aarch64 isn't real embedded IMHO 18:46:10 but for aarch64 clang seems to produce better assembly than gcc, from eyeballing small sections I've needed to optimize 18:46:23 just 'cause it's too "big"? 18:46:53 the Raspberry PI and the iPhone are essentially PC's 18:48:31 ahh thats it's then, apple paid clang for aarch64 I guess 18:48:56 yeah, and I guess my "embedded" platform even has a GPU 18:49:01 /shrug 18:51:21 remexre, if it has a GPU it's definitely more PC than Embedded imho 18:51:56 ya, it's only embedded in the sense that I'd like to embed it into a table w/ a screen :P 18:52:26 before I can do that I need a GPU driver in Forth though, heh 18:52:34 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A13 18:53:09 remexre, heheh, you'll probably be the one writing the Forth GPU driver 18:53:25 yuuuuup 18:53:37 * tabemann likes platforms where everything is in the datasheet, and the datasheet is less than a thousand pages long 18:53:40 been trying to convince a samsung guy I know to do it (not their gpu) 18:54:17 he's proving resistant to writing any code that's not C/C++, sadly 18:54:19 tabemann, so you dont like STM32 ? 18:55:18 tp: well, it's spread amongst three different datasheets 18:55:21 check out the iPhone SoC, 6-core + "machine learning accelerators" 18:55:33 remexre, youre not having much luck getting a C/C++ Samsung guy tor write a GPU driver in Forth for the Apple_A13 ? ... colour me not suprised ;-) 18:55:36 one for the specific MCU, one for the processor architecture, and one for the board-specific info 18:55:54 + a 4-core GPU 18:55:58 er, it's not the apple A13; it's an RK3399 (on the rockpro64) 18:56:24 the apple gpu does seem laptoppy, though 18:56:33 er, soc* 18:56:41 remexre, and youd need the Samsung guy to do it probably as the GPU is probably password protected or some crap 18:57:16 tp: linux drivers do exist, but I've been trying not to read any linux src so I don't get infected by gpl 18:57:31 remexre, I have a Asus 'transformer' tablet, it's a great unit, made in 2012 and still perfect, including both internal batteries .... BUT the GPU is locked, it can never run unix 18:57:32 might try to clean-room it w/ the samsung guy, though 18:58:27 oof, tragic; the rk3399 is pretty open, as far as I know the GPU is the only thing for which the Linux driver is less than perfect 18:58:38 yeah, they were warned in New York about that but they had a big Linux GPU party and now everyone is infected! 18:58:55 lol 18:59:24 zeptoforth got infected because I wanted to borrow code from mecrisp-stellaris 18:59:37 remexre, well OSS has always had problems with GPU's because like FPGA's the manufacturers get all IP mad about their 'baby' 19:00:05 tabemann, that will teach you to wear a N4 mask next time while coding! 19:00:06 --- join: boru` joined #forth 19:00:09 --- quit: boru (Disconnected by services) 19:00:11 --- nick: boru` -> boru 19:00:18 lol 19:00:37 tp: yeah, it's unfortunate... tho the samsung guy says there are non-trivial tricks in the driver that do actually provide a perf advantage on android, so maybe there's something to it 19:01:37 whereas the same prolly isn't true for an ethernet adapter or smth 19:01:58 remexre, I guess everyone has their own 'special tricks', lol, which are probably the same as the other guys 'special tricks' but as theyre all sooper-seeekret, no one knows 19:02:39 plus they probably all steal the methods from each other and use "IP" to hide it anyway 19:05:40 can't say personally, but my impression was that the mobile gpu space is kinda a shitshow, to the point where some guys' tricks are actively harmful 19:06:56 remexre, i bet it is because it's so sooper-secret 19:07:20 where does super secret actually help in OSS ? 19:08:38 oh, I'm not saying it helps driver code quality or anything; I'm saying it makes whatever popular android game of the week run at the same quality with 0.1% less battery use, and that's enough to make their SoC get a $10M bulk sale 19:08:45 remexre, you may be interested to know that the GPU's used in certain ATI boards that are fully open source are said to work far better than the official ATI drivers 19:09:13 remexre, lol 19:10:26 remexre, I have a $650 nvidia GTX660 in this box and frankly a $35 ATI card in my other box running FreeBSD looks identical on the same monitor, I cant notice the difference in X mode 19:10:28 oof, tbf I've heard nothing good about the amd driver dev team going back years now... 19:12:43 remexre, yeah, same here 19:13:22 bit the FreeBSD driver for that card is perfect, and no hassle, it runs perfectly after the base install 19:14:19 when I saw how good it was, I felt a bit ripped off paying $650 for the nvidia. Sure nvidia has the CUDA cores and if you run Blender youll want them, and Kinux 19:14:21 Linux 19:14:36 back 19:14:51 but for a x server and the occasional game, $35 ATI has been flawless for me 19:15:28 and could have saved me $615 19:18:12 okay, did an official release including the numbered local labels 19:25:10 congrats 19:27:10 tabemann, Ive dl it, havent run it yet as Im still finishing my bit@ page 19:27:47 tabemann, ime excited to try it because then I can try the RTS assembly mod! very exciting! 19:30:14 cool 19:31:07 tabemann, if it works ok, it will save you years of work everytime someone want to port to their STM32 chip 19:31:56 unfortunately I can't try out RTS because one of my boards uses USB-serial built in and the other, well, uses serial, but my USB-serial dongle doesn't have RTS/CTS pins 19:31:57 in that you can write a page about how to do it with your dissasembler, heck, I'll do one 19:32:21 yeah I know, but Im perfectly placed to do it for the F407 19:32:53 'porting' usually involves changing the USART with Mecrisp-Stellaris 19:33:19 then handling the flash controller 19:33:26 thats about it afaik 19:34:35 tabemann, I see youve been forked now as well! 19:34:49 yeah 19:34:50 tabemann, someone forked you! 19:34:59 that's gotta hurt 19:35:00 Elliot Williams 19:35:23 hes the main Crapaday Forth writer 19:36:42 and his hobby seems to be forking anything hes interested in on github 19:37:27 I should check whether he's forked STM8EF 19:37:30 I've noticed a LOT of coders who actually never release anything original original forking other peoples work 19:37:33 he has 19:37:42 sporkers 19:38:19 so github has tons of forked and utterly unmaintained programs everywhere 19:38:40 * tabemann got in contact with the STM8EF guy and now he wants to try out zeptoforth 19:38:47 these people dont even say why they forked 19:38:55 hes a cool guy! 19:39:28 and STM8EF is a mod of E Tings "eforth" for the STM8, it looks damn good 19:39:46 I envy how small STM8EF manages to bbe 19:39:55 well it is a 8 bit mcu 19:40:10 the smaller the cell size the smaller the Forth I think 19:41:02 I thought a tethered STM8 would be awesome, but matthias doesnt like the ISA 19:41:24 shame as the MCU can be bought brand new for $0.20 or so 19:42:07 apparently there's lots of ubercheap devices from China which use either STM8S or clones thereof 19:42:15 yes there is 19:42:39 one can get a 8 digit temperature controller with the STM8 in it from china for $2 19:43:30 Im not aware of any STM8 clones, but given the Chinese drive to counterfeit everything, it wouldnt be surprising 19:44:26 just writing a binary to find the counterfeit STM32F103's was enough for me in this lifetime 19:45:14 which incidentally has been dl 273 times now 19:46:04 * tabemann would prefer not to deal with counterfeit chips, hence why he spent $25 on a DISCOVERY board from STMicroelectronics rather than a $3 blue pill from who knows where with who knows what 19:46:27 MrMobius, good advice, the MSP430 is definitely special in many ways. 19:47:30 MrMobius, I think one of those ways is the tight peripheral integration making actions such as a one word low power mode apply to the usart 19:55:08 low power modes with the STM32L476 and STM32F407, well, you have to remember to keep your USART on while sleeping or stopped, or otherwise your USART interrupts won't fire 19:56:50 tabemann, the stm32X low power modes are very complex compared to the MSP430 which leads the field in this area 19:57:21 being 16 bits, the MSP430 is probably the lowest power MCU around 19:57:57 tabemann, I know the STM32Lxxxx has a 'low power usart' but I havent looked at it yet 19:58:24 tabemann, I have three variants of the STM32L0xxxx here now 19:58:35 yeah, I saw the "low power usart", but I don't know how to use it 20:00:19 tabemann, it seems to have a bunch of special low power facilities and I'll get to it one day! 20:05:09 tabemann, Ive a STM32L073 Nucleo with 192kB flash Ive added RTS handshaking to 20:06:15 tabemann, so next in it's agenda is speeding up the clock to 35Mhz, then finding out how low I can get the power usage, then the low power usart 20:07:48 good luck! 20:09:19 it has to wait until my current projs are dome 20:09:22 done 20:09:43 the STM32L073 will all be grunt work really 20:10:26 because I have my svd2forth stuff, this kind of thing is a lot easier for me 20:48:14 now, done with my bugfix release 20:49:10 --- quit: deesix (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 20:49:41 this's been two releases in the same day, but I kind of have adopted the policy of always making a bugfix release, no matter how minor the issue, when I find a bug somewhere 20:49:47 --- quit: dddddd (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 20:50:54 --- join: deesix joined #forth 20:55:38 okay, I'm gonna hit the sack - g'night guys 21:57:11 --- quit: WickedShell (Remote host closed the connection) 22:02:52 --- quit: rdrop-exit (Quit: Lost terminal) 22:04:36 --- join: antaoiseach joined #forth 22:11:55 --- join: gravicappa joined #forth 22:45:24 --- quit: _whitelogger (Remote host closed the connection) 22:48:27 --- join: _whitelogger joined #forth 23:01:48 --- join: Labu joined #forth 23:12:58 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 23:20:24 --- join: dys joined #forth 23:24:50 --- join: proteusguy joined #forth 23:24:50 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 23:32:05 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/20.05.18